Shouldn’t people hope purgatory exists?

BobRyan

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I am comparing imputed righteousness with infused righteousness. I don’t see why you can’t admit infused righteousness is a happier ending.
The righteouness of Christ imputed at the moment of salvation - brings one into instant right relationship with Christ and should they die that moment they are bound for heaven, not "the most supreme suffering and torment any human can experience in this life" nor even hell. I don't see that as a bad thing.


Furthermore, Jesus did say we MUST be PERFECT, and imputed righteousness is not perfection, by definition.
IT is for those who consider Christ's righteousness to be perfect.
Purgatory is not as well defined as you think it is.
I have given you the quotes from your own denomination showing "enough detail" to help all readers discover how unwelcome a fate it is even by the standards of your own church.
The thesis that purgatory was good was presented by Martin Luther, Mr. Reformer himself. Why don’t you comment on his thesis, instead of criticizing Catholicism?
(As if Martin Luther and not the Catholic Church came up with Purgatory??? seriously??)

Ok Martin Luther it is (since you are not willing to discuss the quotes of your own denomination given above)

We switch to your "Let's talk about Martin Luther instead" suggestion

============================================================

Martin Luther:

from: Luther and Tyndale on Death: “The Dead Know Nothing”.

"In 1517 Martin Luther posted his famous 95 Theses regarding the errors of the Catholic Church. In defending many of these later in 1520 he listed the idea “that the soul is immortal” as among
“all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals” (Assertion of All the Articles of M. Luther Condemned by the Latest Bull of Leo X, Art. 27, Works of Luther, Weimar ed., Vol. 7).​
Luther’s main concern in this was the Catholic conception of the conscious torment of souls in purgatory, which he rejected."​

"In 1517, Luther publicly criticized the sale of indulgences, which were documents that granted remission from punishment for sins. Luther objected to the idea that people could buy their way into heaven and argued that salvation is a free gift from God. In 1521, he was excommunicated from the Catholic Church, but he continued to preach his teachings."

"Luther did not believe in purgatory. He came to this belief after studying the Bible and coming to the conclusion that there was no evidence of purgatory in Scripture. He also believed that the practice of praying for the dead was not supported by the Bible."

As of 1528 - Luther was convinced that purgatory cannot be found in scripture:
"Nor have we anything in Scripture concerning purgatory. . . . Therefore, I maintain it is not necessary to believe in it; ..(Confession Concerning Christ’s Supper, Feb. 1528, translated by Robert H. Fischer; in LW, vol. 37)


Almost everyone will admit that Luther affirmed the teaching of "sola scriptura"
 
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Douglas Brian McIntire

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I don't want to trample on anyone's beliefs, yet I still would like to speak what I believe. I believe Jesus...

Matthew 10: 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Final Judgment: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Matthew 25: 31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
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Margaret3110

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Unless you are some kind of unusual Protestant, you believe we only achieve imputed righteousness , and that is, by definition, not true perfection. Purgatory makes a soul truly perfect. Wouldn’t you like that?
I already told you in another thread, yesterday, that MANY Protestants believe in sanctification, in addition to imputed righteousness. You are mischaracterizing the Protestant position, which is what you complain about Protestants doing to Catholics.
 
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BobRyan

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Unless you are some kind of unusual Protestant, you believe we only achieve imputed righteousness
Why in the world do you say that???

Heb 12:14 "14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord."

Not "Pursue after you die - the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord"
 
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BobRyan

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Luther had no qualms with Catholic teachings . His fight was with it's widespread corruption. He believed in purgatory however , the payment of indulgences to the Catholic Church, to get loved ones out, was a bridge too far for him.
Interesting to consider how the Catholic church would consider these three positions by Luther -- as they excommunicated him
1. That purgatory is not taught in the Bible
2. Sola scripture - that all doctrine must be tested by the Bible
3. That indulgences are wrong/false-doctrine - (and so what is purgatory without them for the Catholic Church)?
 
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Daniel Peres

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The righteouness of Christ imputed at the moment of salvation - brings one into instant right relationship with Christ and should they die that moment they are bound for heaven, not "the most supreme suffering and torment any human can experience in this life" nor even hell. I don't see that as a bad thing.



IT is for those who consider Christ's righteousness to be perfect.
Imputed Righteousness is, by definition, not perfect. It is merely imputed ant actual. I really don’t see how you can disagree.
I have given you the quotes from your own denomination showing "enough detail" to help all readers discover how unwelcome a fate it is even by the standards of your own church.
Catholics are not unified on everything you know. Haven’t you heard of the famous debates between Franciscans and Dominicans.
(As if Martin Luther and not the Catholic Church came up with Purgatory??? seriously??)
Ok Martin Luther it is (since you are not willing to discuss the quotes of your own denomination given above)

We switch to your "Let's talk about Martin Luther instead" suggestion

============================================================

Martin Luther:

from: Luther and Tyndale on Death: “The Dead Know Nothing”.

"In 1517 Martin Luther posted his famous 95 Theses regarding the errors of the Catholic Church. In defending many of these later in 1520 he listed the idea “that the soul is immortal” as among
“all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals” (Assertion of All the Articles of M. Luther Condemned by the Latest Bull of Leo X, Art. 27, Works of Luther, Weimar ed., Vol. 7).​
Luther’s main concern in this was the Catholic conception of the conscious torment of souls in purgatory, which he rejected."​

"In 1517, Luther publicly criticized the sale of indulgences, which were documents that granted remission from punishment for sins. Luther objected to the idea that people could buy their way into heaven and argued that salvation is a free gift from God. In 1521, he was excommunicated from the Catholic Church, but he continued to preach his teachings."
The Catholic Church never taught that indulgences could be sold. That would be simony. If there were priests selling indulgences they would be sinning.
"Luther did not believe in purgatory. He came to this belief after studying the Bible and coming to the conclusion that there was no evidence of purgatory in Scripture. He also believed that the practice of praying for the dead was not supported by the Bible."
If there’s one thing I have learned by reading Luther’s works is that he liked to flip flop a lot.
As of 1528 - Luther was convinced that purgatory cannot be found in scripture:
"Nor have we anything in Scripture concerning purgatory. . . . Therefore, I maintain it is not necessary to believe in it; ..(Confession Concerning Christ’s Supper, Feb. 1528, translated by Robert H. Fischer; in LW, vol. 37)


Almost everyone will admit that Luther affirmed the teaching of "sola scriptura"
Are you sure about that? He did believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary yet Protestants say that contradicts Sola Scriptura.
 
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bling

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Many people, including many Catholics, view purgatory as a sort of punishment, something negative. But consider Martin Luther’s 29th thesis:

“Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.”

According to the legend, Saint Severinus and Paschal preferred to stay longer in Purgatory, so that they might have greater glory in heaven.

I think Luther has a good point here. After all, upon completeing the purification process, a soul has true righteousnees (infused). Because Protestants deny purification after death, their theology only promises imputed righteousness.

Why would anybody want to settle for imputed righteousness. If Protestants correct and I end up with imputed righteousness, I will be very disappointed.
We are in agreement with “imputed righteousness”, but I am neither Catholic nor Protistan.

The Greek word “telious” can be translated “perfect”, but lots of times it is translated or means: Complete, united to oneness, or mature, so just because they translate “telious” perfect does not mean He is using the English idea of “perfect”.

What we have to keep in mind is: “Man’s earthly objective”, since everything is driven by the objective, so does Purgatory fit the objective?

I do not see any logic behind “Purgatory”, if it were as good or better for humans in achieving their objective, than why waste time on this tragic earth (which I see as the very best place for willing humans to fulfill their objective).

There are a host of problems with “Purgatory”:

1. “Judgment” is not a courtroom situation to figure out how well you did weigh the good against the bad, but it is more like an “Award Assembly”, the determination of your award has been finalized before “judgment”, so it is just sentencing phase, which is also a “judgment”.

2. If you are doing stuff to avoid spending more time in “Purgatory”, than your motive is totally wrong (1 Cor 13: 1-4) and is worth nothing. Christians are to be compelled by Godly type Love, so the motivation is like out of gratitude (what has already been done for them). The only thing we “lack” while here on earth is actually spending time in heaven, but we have a birthright guaranteed by the Holy Spirit (like a down payment) that cannot be taken away even by God (we do own it so we can give it away).

3. Why would God, our loving Father, need to punish his children? Parents discipline their children which in many translations is translated “punishment”, but that is actually a poor translation. We as children are lovingly disciplined by our father so we know we are children along with all the other benefits that come with being disciplined, while individuals that do not accept God’s discipline (atonement process) in this world will be “punished” with hell.

4. If a “Christian” feels they are not being totally forgiven by God and still have purgatory to go through after death, than how can they truly “Love” to the maximum since “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” and God forgives an unbelievable huge amount (the maximum), so we can Love and unbelievable huge amount (a Godly type Love).

5. Either we all receive the maximum we could receive (no one going to purgatory) or we receive different amounts. I or Paul have personally not done anything “better” than those that would go to purgatory, whatever we did was the Spirit working through us, so why “punish” my brothers and sisters? I would not like for my brothers and sisters to spend any time in a place like purgatory, but I can understand people going to hell.

6. Sending Christians to purgatory after death is not going to “change” them after death like Loving discipline would do in this life, so that means purgatory is being done for “God’s sake”? If you say: “Purgatory is a motivation for Christians in this life” that is totally opposite of the motivation God wants us to have. Hell can be motivation for the unbeliever that does not have any Godly type Love, but Christians have accepted Godly type Love, so their motivation is to be from Love.

That is just some of the problems I see.
 
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Dan Perez

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Unless you are some kind of unusual Protestant, you believe we only achieve imputed righteousness , and that is, by definition, not true perfection. Purgatory makes a soul truly perfect. Wouldn’t you like that?
I have VINE'S DICTIONARY that has every GREEK word used in the NEW TESTAMENT and a Greek word for PURGATORY can not be found .

And I missed where PURGATORY makes a soul PERFECT , will you provide a verse , PLEASE ?

dan p
 
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Blade

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"All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect”

This is something I can't find in the Torah/OT or NT. I am in right standing with God because I believe in Jesus. When we die we go to paradise. Christ told the thief that said remember me. Christ said today you will be with me in paradise. So AMEN AMEN AMEN to the BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST!
 
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zippy2006

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Many people, including many Catholics, view purgatory as a sort of punishment, something negative. But consider Martin Luther’s 29th thesis:

“Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.”

According to the legend, Saint Severinus and Paschal preferred to stay longer in Purgatory, so that they might have greater glory in heaven.

I think Luther has a good point here. After all, upon completeing the purification process, a soul has true righteousnees (infused). Because Protestants deny purification after death, their theology only promises imputed righteousness.

Why would anybody want to settle for imputed righteousness. If Protestants correct and I end up with imputed righteousness, I will be very disappointed.

I find that objections to purgatory are very often not objections to purgation per se, but rather to some other thing that has become attached to the doctrine of purgatory (such as indulgences). For example, see my post <here>.

(Generally speaking, Protestants do not deny sanctification. Rather, they deny that sanctification accompanies justification.)
 
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Daniel Peres

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I have VINE'S DICTIONARY that has every GREEK word used in the NEW TESTAMENT and a Greek word for PURGATORY can not be found .

And I missed where PURGATORY makes a soul PERFECT , will you provide a verse , PLEASE ?

dan p
I like your name.

Well the word Trinity is Latin, not Greek. What do you think of that?

Purgatory is what after death purification is called in the western/Latin rite of the Catholic Church. It is only used in the western church, and so it is not the official term used by the entire Catholic Church. However, the doctrine of after death purification is very ancient, and all of the Apostolic churches believe it. Furthermore, while I’m sure you would disagree, there is nevertheless support for it in the NT.
 
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BobRyan

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Imputed Righteousness is, by definition, not perfect.
Those who have it are considered by God to be perfect - that is the whole point of it.

What were you thinking it was?
Rom 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.​

How is it you keep re-casting that as "a bad thing"??
As a former non-Catholic - did you view Rom 5:1 as "a bad thing?"
Do you think that Protestants think of Rom 5:1 as a "bad thing"??
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.​
 
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BobRyan

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Purgatory is what after death purification is called in the western/Latin rite of the Catholic Church. It is only used in the western church

You mean the "punishment" that is the most instense form of pain and suffering a person can experience - far beyond what can be experienced in this life?

The Catholic church calls it "punishment" and "suffering" at the Council of Florence -- "more severe than anything humans can suffer in this life"

Vatican II documents state:

CATHOLIC TEACHING ON PURGATORY
"Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397).

Your argument seems to be that failure to experience punishment and pain "more severe than anything humans can suffer in this life" and to instead be granted the righteousness of Christ - is an awful teaching???

It is difficult to understand how you in your former non-Catholic state could have come to such a conclusion or how you might expect other non-catholics to come to such a conclusion.
 
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Daniel Peres

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Those who have it are considered by God to be perfect - that is the whole point of it.
They are considered by God to be perfect but are not actually perfect. I’m not sure you understand the difference between imputed and infused righteousness. The first is God declaring you righteous despite your flaws, the latter is God actually removing your flaws and making you 100% righteous. Would you rather have $10 in your bank account or $10,000? I really don’t understand why you disagreed with me. You can’t see which form of righteousness is superior?
 
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BobRyan

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They are considered by God to be perfect but are not actually perfect.


Rom 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.

How is it you keep re-casting that as "a bad thing"??
As a former non-Catholic - did you view Rom 5:1 as "a bad thing?"
Do you think that Protestants think of Rom 5:1 as a "bad thing"??

Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.


I don't think you understand justification or the gospel benefit of being born-again at the moment of conversion - from your response.

The moment a person accepts the gospel they are born-again

John 3 makes it clear that we must be born-again to be a member of God's Family -
The New Covenant - writes the Law on the heart and adopts us into the family of God at conversion - Jer 31:31-34
The gives us a new nature - a new heart, Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

2 Cor 5:
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

========================

A man prone to cursing and swearing - accepts the Gospel and is born again. By a miracle of God he receives a new nature and is as 2 Cor 5 says "a new creation". At that very instant. And though he ALSO has a sinful nature that is at war with his new nature - even so by a miracle of God he instantly has that new nature. He does not go around cursing God. Romans 6 says that instantly he is no longer a "Slave to sin"
 
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Daniel Peres

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You mean the "punishment" that is the most instense form of pain and suffering a person can experience - far beyond what can be experienced in this life?
Consider this analogy: The pains of a mother in labor can be excruciating. Yet along with the pain, the mother has the joy of knowing that her new child is about to enter the world. In a similar way, we can think of purgatory as the soul’s “birth canal” into the new life of heaven. While the process is painful, joy arises from the confidence that the soul is being prepared for eternal happiness and glory with God.
 
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BobRyan

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I have VINE'S DICTIONARY that has every GREEK word used in the NEW TESTAMENT and a Greek word for PURGATORY can not be found .

And I missed where PURGATORY makes a soul PERFECT , will you provide a verse , PLEASE ?

dan p
IN Daniel's reference to Luther - we find that Luther admits that the speculative teaching about purgatory - can not be found in the Bible
 
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BobRyan

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we can think of purgatory as the soul’s “birth canal” into the new life of heaven.
Indulgences claim to cut that short - and a plenary indulgence wipes it all out.

If wiping it out is a "good thing" just as the Catholic church claims -- then not having it at all is even better. This is unavoidable.

Even the RCC claims it is good to opt out of it via indulgences.

IT is hard to find anyone on earth who claims that avoiding "the most instense form of pain and suffering a person can experience" is a bad thing. And praise God the Bible does not teach Purgatory - just as your own reference to Luther helps everyone see - in his own confession that it is not in the Bible.
 
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Jamdoc

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Many people, including many Catholics, view purgatory as a sort of punishment, something negative. But consider Martin Luther’s 29th thesis:

“Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.”

According to the legend, Saint Severinus and Paschal preferred to stay longer in Purgatory, so that they might have greater glory in heaven.

I think Luther has a good point here. After all, upon completeing the purification process, a soul has true righteousnees (infused). Because Protestants deny purification after death, their theology only promises imputed righteousness.

Why would anybody want to settle for imputed righteousness. If Protestants correct and I end up with imputed righteousness, I will be very disappointed.
why, so you can boast to people you deserve to be there?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Before God, imputed righteousness through Christ is frankly the only righteousness you'll have that will count.
 
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