This is an alternative to the view of Calvinism

Mark Quayle · Dec 12, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
It really depends on what Paul meant by being predestined. Other scripture shows us that Jesus so loved the world that he calls all men to be saved. Foreknowledge, and predestination, need not mean God marked out, an elect group before creation. But rather God predestined, marked out those he foreknew would act within the parameters he had predestined. In a sense these are "elect", "selected", but according to God's nature, not God's pre-choosing.

Scripture says that Jesus loved the world so much that he calls all men to be saved?

It's a sad day when a creature concludes that his omnipotent creator and ruler and owner of the universe can't accomplish what he set out to do.

FutureAndAHope · Dec 12, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Scripture says that Jesus loved the world so much that he calls all men to be saved?

It's a sad day when a creature concludes that his omnipotent creator and ruler and owner of the universe can't accomplish what he set out to do.

He obviously did not call all men to be saved, for some will be lost, but rather calls all men, giving them hope of salvation.

GodsGrace101 · Dec 13, 2022

friend of said:
Yeah lately I've just been realizing how doctrinally incorrect Calvinism really is.

They sure do have Romans 9 though, I'll give them that!

Romans 9 is not speaking about individual salvation.
It's actually Paul recounting how God treated the state of Israel.
How it was to honor Him and instead it didn't.
Take the part about God hating Esau.
Reminds us of when Jesus said to hate our mother...
Did Jesus really mean that we are to hate our mother,
or did He mean something else?
Same thing.
Read up on it.
Calvinism has nothing going for it...it's all wrong.

Do you know N.T. Wright? He's a respected intellectual in Christian circles:

Wright’s New Perspective Approach to Romans 9:14-25

N. T. Wright believes that both Reformed and Wesleyan-Arminianism approaches misses the flow of Paul’s case in Romans 9 because they import Augustine-Pelagic controversy into the text. Wright’s New…

withalliamgod.wordpress.com

Romans 9: An Arminian/New Perspective Reading

Introduction Romans 9 is often cited as one of the clearest examples in Scripture of the Reformed doctrine of individual election: It discusses God’s sovereign…

evangelicalarminians.org

A Free Will Perspective on Romans 9 and Predestination

How do you respond to Romans 9? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

The Deterministic Interpretation of Romans 9 Many people believe that Romans 9 demonstrates that God has the right and power to save whichever individuals he wants to save and damn whichever individuals he wants to damn. I’ll call this the “deterministic” reading of Romans 9, for it holds that...

reknew.org

FutureAndAHope · Dec 13, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
Romans 9 is not speaking about individual salvation.
It's actually Paul recounting how God treated the state of Israel.
How it was to honor Him and instead it didn't.
Take the part about God hating Esau.

An interesting point is that Irenaeus the Early Church Father in Against Heresies says that Romans is a story of two nations. The quote has been pasted below:

Book IV. (Cont.)
Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.

2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom 9:10-13; Gen 25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom 9:13; Mal 1:2)

GodsGrace101 · Dec 13, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Which is the early church you refer to —the church during Paul's time, or after the canon was complete? I doubt very much that the church after the canon was written did not believe in predestination, but I KNOW Paul did. I would have to assume, since the early church during Paul's time was taught by Paul (and others that believed in predestination), that it did believe in predestination.

But since you made the positive statement that the early church believed in freewill, it is incumbent on your to back it up, first by defining what you mean by 'early church', then by defining what you mean by 'free will', then by showing that the early church you defined believed in free will as you defined. I'm guessing all you will be able to show is choice, just as Arminians have done when telling us the Bible teaches free will.

The early church I refer to is the church that came both at the time of the Apostles and immediately thereafter and up until about the 3rd century.
After that the church decided to become involved with the state and things began to change.

Until that time the church protected itself from heresies, and it did a good job of that.
Both by holding councils where important matters were agreed upon and creeds stated so that we can know what a Christian person is supposed to believe in order to be called a Christian. For instance, a gnostic is not a Christian person. An arian is not a Christian person.

I trust what the Apostles taught.
I trust what those they taught in turn held to be true...
and so on till about the 200's and maybe into the 300's (but not too much).

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Free will can simply be defined as the ability to make a different choice.
Or we can say that it is the liberty of the will.
An apple falls from a tree but it does not have free will.
If I get up from this seat, I am making a conscious decision to move.
I am causing the movement.
I am at liberty to move or not to move.

When referring to the bible, free will is intended to mean that we can obey or not obey...
we can make a moral choice.
If we do not have free will in this manner, then all commands and rewards as spoken of in the bible are totally useless.
Why reward me if I did not, by free will, earn it?

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JESUS BELEIVED IN FREE WILL
1.
John 7:17 Jesus said
17“If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

We must be WILLING to do God's will.
IF we are WILLIING.
This denotes freedom of our will.

And notice verse 19:
19“Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law?

This is interesting. Jesus is scolding the Jews for not carrying out a law given by Moses
AS IF Jesus didn't realize that they were just doing what God Father determined that they should do.

This error of reason is seen throughout the NT.
The reformed just refuse to see it, as if they were blind and not able to see.

2.
Luke 22:42 Jesus said
42saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

By the above prayer we can see that Jesus had a will and that it was free, but He chose to do God's will.

3.
Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus knocks.
If we hear His voice, and faith comes by hearing (Romans)
it is up to US to open the door.
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PAUL BELIEVED IN FREE WILL

1.
Acts 16:30-31 Paul was asked:
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Paul told the jailer to believe in Jesus.
He did NOT tell him to wait around to see if God would choose him for salvation.
Paul told the jailer to ACT and believe.

2.
Romans 1:16
14I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.
15So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Paul is under obligation to preach because he knows that it is by hearing the word of God that man becomes saved
and not because God determines WHO will be saved...but HOW one will be saved, and this is what Paul is doing in Acts and in all
his writings.

If determinism were true, preaching would be useless.
You'd say that we must preach because God commanded it.
Why would He command preaching if it's HIM that is going to choose who will be saved?
This goes against reason and we all must admit that God is a reasonable being.

It is the POWER OF THE GOSPEL, the good news, that WHOEVER believes the good news, for them it is the power of salvation.
And the righteous man must live by something...
BY FAITH.

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THE EARLY FATHERS BELEIVED IN FREE WILL

1.
Clement of Rome 80-140AD
Taught by Paul and knew Peter
Mentioned by Paul in Philippians 4:3

“For no other reason does God punish the sinner either in the present or future world, except because He knows that
the sinner was able to conquer but neglected to gain the victory." (Clement of Rome, Recognitions 111. 23, V. 8, IX.
30.)

1 Clement 7:5 Let us review all the generations in turn, and learn how from generation to generation the Master hath given a place for repentance unto them that desire to turn to Him.

For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. 2 Clement 6:7

It is therefore in the power of every one, since man has been made possessed of free-will, whether he shall hear us to life, or the demons to destruction.

He who is good by his own choice is really good; but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice…

2.
Ignatius of Antioch 30 - 107AD
Taught by Peter and knew John

I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but all humanity is made the same, sometimes belonging to God and sometimes to the devil. If anyone is truly spiritual they are a person of God; but if they are irreligious and not spiritual then they are a person of the devil, made such not by nature, but by their own choice. Pg.61 vol. 1.

There is set before us life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. (The epistle of Ignatius, ch. 5, p. 27)

3.
Polycarp of Smyrna
Student of John
Letter to Philippi
110AD approx

“But the one who raised him from the dead will raise us also, if we do his will and follow his commandments and love the things he loved, while avoiding every kind of unrighteousness…” (2:2).

“If we please him in this present world, we will receive the world to come as well, inasmuch as he promised that he will raise us from the dead and that if we prove to be citizens worthy of him, we will also reign with him — if, that is, we continue to believe” (5:2).

I've got plenty more should you need more.
The fact is: The early church DID NOT believe that man did not have free will.
They based all their teachings on the fact that man is free to believe or not believe,
act as God would will, or not, be saved or not, continue in salvation or not.

Maybe it would be easier if you just read the ECF's.
And learned the truth for yourself.

GodsGrace101 · Dec 13, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
An interesting point is that Irenaeus the Early Church Father in Against Heresies says that Romans is a story of two nations. The quote has been pasted below:

Thanks for that.

I believe that if one were really honest with himself, he would learn some EARLY church history, pre 325AD
and find out what the Apostles taught, and what those taught, etc.

Maybe some are afraid to?
Maybe it takes real courage to find out what Jesus and the Apostles really taught,
instead of some men that came along 1,500 years later.

I'm thinking even of the JW's, Mormons, Scientology.
What is this stuff!
I suppose we're all entitled to our own opinion....
but maybe Christianity is a system of SET BELIEFS and if a church wants to teach something that is outside of that
set, maybe it shouldn't be called Christian?

Then it's asked WHO IS TO SAY what is the set of beliefs and what is not.

THE EARLY CHURCH !
We have to depend on those that came after Jesus.
He wrote nothing to leave with us.
So our trust is in the Apostles and those they taught.
We trust what THEY told us about Jesus.
This is why our faith is reasonable.
We're trusting on reasonable people.

GodsGrace101 · Dec 13, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Anyhow, is this the early church that @GodsGrace101 was referring to? If it is, is it definitive of the 'early church'? I ask you, since you have undertaken to answer for him. Are you saying that if this is definitive of the early church, that the 'early church' had not already strayed from Paul's teachings? Do you have some evidence for that, other than to show that they agree with you?

You know Mark,
I find that not too many Christians know about church history.
I've been told that all the church history they need is in the NT.
And then they go on to disagree with this or that.

Now, you're saying that the early church had already strayed from Paul's teachings.
John said some had left them because they were not of them.
He was speaking of gnostics that had already entered into the church while he was still alive.

Of course sects had strayed from the church Jesus wanted.
This is what we call heresies....a belief that something our of the mainline teachings was being offered.
This is why I believe (and many others) that calvinism is heretical...because of what heretical means.
It's not a mean word - it really just means that it's outside of mainline Christianity.

It's the early church that was strong and kept the heresies out of the church.
The idea of Predestination didn't come along until Augustine in the 5th century.
And this because he had been a gnostic manichaen for at least 10 years prior to deciding to become Christian.
His idea didn't catch on BTW, but John Calvin sure did like it.

It's my personal belief that the church left him alone to his writings at the time because he was such a strong and
charismatic person. If you remember he debated Pelagius and won.

It's my firm belief that if we knew more about the early church, we'd all be better Christians.

I do also believe that everything we need to know is in the NT....
HOWEVER, when these conflicts of beliefs come up, I do like to go back and see what the Apostles taught others.

GodsGrace101 · Dec 13, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
And in the Bible too, man freely chooses to accept or reject, to submit or to rebel. Where have I said otherwise? And where does this deny the doctrine of Predestination?

Whoa!
I can't remember if we've spoken about this before....
You're addressing another poster but I just saw this.

How do YOU define free will ?
How do you define the doctrine of predestination?
If something is predestined, how does that not affect free will?
Thanks.

friend of · Dec 13, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
If we do not have free will in this manner, then all commands and rewards as spoken of in the bible are totally useless.
Why reward me if I did not, by free will, earn it?

I've been thinking about this as well and it's a very good point. Thanks

Mark Quayle · Dec 13, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
Whoa!
I can't remember if we've spoken about this before....
You're addressing another poster but I just saw this.

How do YOU define free will ?
How do you define the doctrine of predestination?
If something is predestined, how does that not affect free will?
Thanks.

My bad. I thought you were easily up on what I and so many others believe concerning this. I have even been accused of Compatabilism, as what I believe resembles it in some ways.

Predestination: I believe 1. That God controls absolutely everything, down to the minutest piece of a particle and the smallest component of force, and every motion of spirit. 2*. That God does this, from our point of view, within time, but from his point of view, when he spoke creation into existence. *(Admittedly, I go easy on this because not only does it make people's eyes glaze over, but even I agree it is highly doubtful that my conceptions of such word constructions are capable of describing how God sees and how he acts. I'm just doing the best I can here). 3. God then spoke every minutest detail into completion, but we see it coming to pass by various secondary causes, just as he intended us to see it. 4. This does not render this temporal life as not real, but as real —however in no comparative scale to the reality to come, the reality of God's economy. 5. In fact, the reality of anything including all fact and all moral choices, are real, and are fact, only by God's having spoken it into existence.

So. Freewill is a moral choice made from among perceived options. Even when the unregenerate thinks they are choosing Christ, if they are not doing it by faith, they are not choosing Christ. But they have freely chosen according to their preferences, even if only for that instant of choice. And again, #5 above: Freewill is only so because of God's predestination, i.e. having spoken each choice into being.

GodsGrace101 · Dec 14, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
My bad. I thought you were easily up on what I and so many others believe concerning this. I have even been accused of Compatabilism, as what I believe resembles it in some ways.

Did you see my post no. 45 to you?
I hope you read it.

I'm going to reply to the following...but I find that so much of what we try to convey has to do with language, but here goes:

Mark Quayle said:
Predestination: I believe 1. That God controls absolutely everything, down to the minutest piece of a particle and the smallest component of force, and every motion of spirit.

OK, so that's predestination.
The way I see it, God created human beings, not robots.
God is love and maybe wanted creatures to love...
Love is free, it's not predetermined.
If love is predetermined it's not worth anything.
The only way it has any value is if it's free.
If God has predetermined everything, it means He also predetermined my love for Him.
So, that's not real love for us humans and it certainly isn't love for God.

I do believe, of course, that God CAN DO WHATEVER HE WILLS.
I just don't think He wanted a bunch of robots running around.

Mark Quayle said:
2*. That God does this, from our point of view, within time, but from his point of view, when he spoke creation into existence. *(Admittedly, I go easy on this because not only does it make people's eyes glaze over, but even I agree it is highly doubtful that my conceptions of such word constructions are capable of describing how God sees and how he acts. I'm just doing the best I can here)

I believe the bible tells us what God spoke into creation.
The universe.
Our planet.
He prepared it for us.
And then He created humankind.
He told Adam not to eat of the tree, but He allowed Adam to do what Adam wanted.
Do you at least agree that Adam had free will?

Mark Quayle said:
3. God then spoke every minutest detail into completion, but we see it coming to pass by various secondary causes, just as he intended us to see it.

So what's a secondary cause?

Mark Quayle said:
4. This does not render this temporal life as not real, but as real —however in no comparative scale to the reality to come, the reality of God's economy.

How is it real if we're playing a game?
Did you take the blue pill?
You accept, really, that this is all just something that we're playing out and in which we have no say
and really no reason to be alive except to complete the predetermined paradigm of the chief player - which would be God.
How could anyone accept such an idea?
When you leave your house in the morning, you believe everything is already planned out.
It's kind of unreal.

Mark Quayle said:
5. In fact, the reality of anything including all fact and all moral choices, are real, and are fact, only by God's having spoken it into existence.

How is anything real if we're not creating our own reality?
When you play an internet game, is it real?
No. It's called a game because any combination of anything is possible.
What you're putting forth is even worse.
(no combination available).

Mark Quayle said:
So. Freewill is a moral choice made from among perceived options.

Why are the options perceived?
You walk into a store and see a gold coin on the counter.
Someone lost it.
You could just take it, or you could try to find out who it belongs to.

Why would those be PERCEIVED options?
They sound real to me.

Mark Quayle said:
Even when the unregenerate thinks they are choosing Christ, if they are not doing it by faith, they are not choosing Christ. But they have freely chosen according to their preferences, even if only for that instant of choice. And again, #5 above: Freewill is only so because of God's predestination, i.e. having spoken each choice into being.

The above is truly difficult to understand.
Sounds like theology and philosophy all mixed up together.

If someone is choosing Christ...then that's what they're doing.
Of course it would have to be by faith.
And of course it would have to be according to their preference.
I either want to serve God or I don't.

Mark, free will and predestination do not work well together.
Either someone predestined you to marry Mary
OR
You chose Mary of your own free will.

It can't be both.

FutureAndAHope · Dec 14, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
He who is good by his own choice is really good; but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice…

Just trying to locate this quote in Clement, could not find it. Do you have a reference?

Mark Quayle · Dec 14, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
Free will can simply be defined as the ability to make a different choice.
Or we can say that it is the liberty of the will.
An apple falls from a tree but it does not have free will.
If I get up from this seat, I am making a conscious decision to move.
I am causing the movement.
I am at liberty to move or not to move.

When referring to the bible, free will is intended to mean that we can obey or not obey...
we can make a moral choice.
If we do not have free will in this manner, then all commands and rewards as spoken of in the bible are totally useless.
Why reward me if I did not, by free will, earn it?

So far, you have only described will. Why bring into it, the term, 'free'?

But that with choice we make moral choices is beyond dispute. What is disputed is whether the unregenerate can only make a choice of that, vs this which is better than that, perhaps as mere compliance to conscience, but still not what God calls obedience, submission; or is he able to truly choose submission on his own, apart from being born of the Spirit?

Mark Quayle · Dec 14, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
Did you see my post no. 45 to you?
I hope you read it.

Yes, I did. I answered a part of it that was more or less representative or at least introductory to the whole, which was more or less, to my mind, as useless as the rest of our interchanges.

As I have said before, it doesn't matter what the early church, even if your posited representatives believed is representative of what the early church taught, if it disagrees with Scripture.

But what is in the end become obvious, is that we keep hammering the same gong without result. You show choice and even will, and I ask, why do you say 'free'? Over and over and over. EVERY time you show it, that is what I see, an unnecessary "free" added to choice, will, thought, considerations, whatever, apparently for the sake of mere self-determination —I can find no other reason.

You present what you think are those reasons demonstrating the need for that extra word, 'free', but all you have made are repeated assertions. I even concede the word 'free', at times, making sure it is understood that it does not mean "uncaused". But you reject that outright, and demand it mean something that I cannot see the Bible teaching.

I can think of ten or twenty different ways to come at this, but you admit to none of them. I've grown tired of this. I do want to thank you for the mannerly way you have usually addressed me —so rare in these debates— it is more appreciated than I think you know. I will try to address each of the items below, and then I will try to present the whole picture one more way that to me addresses the real concern behind all this mess —the assumption that God operates on our terms, or that our worth is in the same realm as his.

GodsGrace101 said:
OK, so that's predestination.
The way I see it, God created human beings, not robots.
God is love and maybe wanted creatures to love...
Love is free, it's not predetermined.
If love is predetermined it's not worth anything.
The only way it has any value is if it's free.
If God has predetermined everything, it means He also predetermined my love for Him.
So, that's not real love for us humans and it certainly isn't love for God.

I do believe, of course, that God CAN DO WHATEVER HE WILLS.
I just don't think He wanted a bunch of robots running around.

Well, no, that was only the beginning of a description of predestination

GodsGrace101 said:
I believe the bible tells us what God spoke into creation.
The universe.
Our planet.
He prepared it for us.
And then He created humankind.
He told Adam not to eat of the tree, but He allowed Adam to do what Adam wanted.
Do you at least agree that Adam had free will?

No. Adam did precisely as he was predestined to do, down to each detail, according to his inclinations.

In effect, you seem to be deist, with some differences.

GodsGrace101 said:
So what's a secondary cause?

Usually said in a general statement, all causes subsequent to first cause are secondary causes. Technically only the very first effects became secondary causes, but then each subsequent cause would have to be numbered and I don't know what the numbers are. Lost count eons ago.

GodsGrace101 said:
How is it real if we're playing a game?
Did you take the blue pill?
You accept, really, that this is all just something that we're playing out and in which we have no say
and really no reason to be alive except to complete the predetermined paradigm of the chief player - which would be God.
How could anyone accept such an idea?
When you leave your house in the morning, you believe everything is already planned out.
It's kind of unreal.

Not at all. We choose all day long, we have a say. But it always turns out that what we say, what we choose, is precisely what God decreed we would say. Indeed it is by his very decree that my choice is established. (Read the last three paragraphs at the end of this too-long post.)

When I leave my house in the morning, indeed when I get up in the morning and when I lie down, God's decree is a solid comfort to me, that I can never lose him nor can he lose me, except by HIS own decree. I can DEPEND on his mercy and justice, and not on my own silly efforts.

GodsGrace101 said:
How is anything real if we're not creating our own reality?
When you play an internet game, is it real?
No. It's called a game because any combination of anything is possible.
What you're putting forth is even worse.
(no combination available).

I assume that by, "creating our own reality", you mean, if reality is not produced as we do what we do —i.e. as time progresses? I guess the quick and easy answer is to ask, "who is the greater being here, the greater cause —are we? Or is God?"

GodsGrace101 said:
Why are the options perceived?
You walk into a store and see a gold coin on the counter.
Someone lost it.
You could just take it, or you could try to find out who it belongs to.

Why would those be PERCEIVED options?
They sound real to me.

They seem real enough, and no doubt, any one that is chosen is indeed the one that is able to happen. But nothing that doesn't happen can be demonstrated as having been possible to happen. It's just a fact, and a stupid, depressing one at that! I say it tongue in cheek, using the scientific logic of empiricism: We have never seen anything happen except what always does happen, so how can we say that anything more than that could have happened? How can we demonstrate empirically that more than what was chosen was possible? Extrapolating then, how can we say that more than whatever gets chosen CAN be possible?

Edit: (This is probably too much fun for me to think on and talk about, but the same principle can be applied to all progression of fact —not just choice. I am probably way too sure (haha) that only what can happen will happen, and so nothing else can happen. I say, too much fun, because I am aware that in the end, I don't know the half of it. I'm as much an idiot compared to God as anyone else is. (There! I have made my obligatory bow to self-skepticism.))

Mark Quayle said:
Even when the unregenerate thinks they are choosing Christ, if they are not doing it by faith, they are not choosing Christ. But they have freely chosen according to their preferences, even if only for that instant of choice. And again, #5 above: Freewill is only so because of God's predestination, i.e. having spoken each choice into being.

GodsGrace101 said:
The above is truly difficult to understand.
Sounds like theology and philosophy all mixed up together.

If someone is choosing Christ...then that's what they're doing.
Of course it would have to be by faith.
And of course it would have to be according to their preference.
I either want to serve God or I don't.

Mark, free will and predestination do not work well together.
Either someone predestined you to marry Mary
OR
You chose Mary of your own free will.

It can't be both.

Let me rephrase then, when someone is presented with the option of choosing or rejecting Christ, and they think they are choosing Christ, unless God has changed their heart, they are choosing emotional relief, or freedom of guilt, or any number of things besides true submission to Christ.

Below is the scenario I mentioned at first, in my fifth paragraph above.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Think of all of creation as a ball (no, I'm not saying it is a ball. I'm presenting a tool to aid in understanding) containing all the detail this universe contains, down the minutest detail of particle physics and smaller, and down to the least component of spiritual reality. Call the ball, "Reality", if you must, but try to understand this, that it is spoken into being by God, and though it is not God himself — (it is, after all, 'other than' God) — its very existence and fact, from the largest principle to the smallest detail is nevertheless SUSTAINED by God; it is real because God spoke it: "Let there be...". Yet, there it is, all of it, including every large or small principle by which it operates —time, gravity, reason, math, beauty, mass, force, dimension, etc etc etc, all of it sustained by God's decree— spiritual principality and human empiricism, good and evil, and every other thing of a different kind of being from the being that God is, and yet fully dependent on God for its own being.

Now since you love free will — (who doesn't?) — I will not ask you, in this scenario, to give it up, but to consider how it is at least compatible with God's causation, and even subject to God's causation. God spoke that ball-full-of-fact into being, including the principle of time to which creation is apparently irrevocably subject, without himself being subject to time, nor to any other of creation's principles since they all proceeded from him. He can [deistically] set its clock spinning and leave it alone, or he can continue to interject himself into the ongoing system as he pleases —either way, it all continuously depends on him for its being, indeed for its very reality, and at any point in it, and at the end, it is no more and no less what he spoke into being than when it began. If for your peace of mind you need free will, then ok, think of all options as actual, think of all thoughts as spontaneous; do as you please, but do not for an instant think that you can do that apart from the fact that the creator created and sustained every detail of it.

Quite contrary to the mind games we play on ourselves, God is not subject to reality; reality is what it is because God is real. All things were made by him. He is of a higher order than what he created.

GodsGrace101 · Dec 15, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
Just trying to locate this quote in Clement, could not find it. Do you have a reference?

Under Clement 80-140AD
This would be Clement of Rome.

Quotes from old church fathers, supporting Free will and objecting to the Sinful nature

Church fathers before Augustine entered the scene … The first 300 years AD we had a complete agreement among the early church fathers that man has a free will, that we are not “once sav…

bjorkbloggen.com

GodsGrace101 · Dec 15, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Yes, I did. I answered a part of it that was more or less representative or at least introductory to the whole, which was more or less, to my mind, as useless as the rest of our interchanges.

If you think our interchanges are useless, you should stop posting to me.
I think they're interesting because you don't seem to accept that we have a will
and that it is free.

You haven't ever explained how a will could be free AND we are predetermined to act in certain ways and to make all choices.
You said that EVERYTHING is predetermined...that would include our decisions...expecially those that are moral in nature since we're speaking of the bible.

Mark Quayle said:
As I have said before, it doesn't matter what the early church, even if your posited representatives believed is representative of what the early church taught, if it disagrees with Scripture.

Then why did you make me go through the work of posting from them?
Your statement was that THE EARLY CHURCH DID NOT BELIEVE IN FREE WILL...

I supported my belief with proof.
You said I stated the positive and it required proof.
Which I gave to you. Did you think I wouldn't be able to?
Do you think I make up my doctrinal beliefs as I go along?
THE EARLY CHURCH BELIEVED IN FREE WILL.
Yes, we have a will that makes us MOVE...and it's FREE to do what it wants to do, based on nothing else other than what WE want to do.
No coercion from God or any other force.
We can be influenced by outside forces, but not forced.

BTW, the early church agrees with scripture on EVERYTHING.
Life went on after John died.
What the church believed was passed on to others.

Show me some scripture that shows we do NOT have free will.
Show me some scripture that shows predestination is for our salvation.

It doesn't exist because the early church did not believe in either of those two premises
until ONE THEOLOGIAN, Augustine, (5th century) came up with odd ideas which were never accepted.
To this day.

And the reason we don't get anywhere is because you either refuse to reply to the above
or are not able to.

Mark Quayle said:
But what is in the end become obvious, is that we keep hammering the same gong without result. You show choice and even will, and I ask, why do you say 'free'? Over and over and over. EVERY time you show it, that is what I see, an unnecessary "free" added to choice, will, thought, considerations, whatever, apparently for the sake of mere self-determination —I can find no other reason.

This is rather sad.
Not to know the difference between will and free will.
Did you know that quantum physics is beginning to find that even atoms have free will?
You should look into this.

Mark Quayle said:
You present what you think are those reasons demonstrating the need for that extra word, 'free', but all you have made are repeated assertions. I even concede the word 'free', at times, making sure it is understood that it does not mean "uncaused". But you reject that outright, and demand it mean something that I cannot see the Bible teaching.

Are we reading the same bible?
My bible states that we have a free will.

Mark Quayle said:
I can think of ten or twenty different ways to come at this, but you admit to none of them. I've grown tired of this. I do want to thank you for the mannerly way you have usually addressed me —so rare in these debates— it is more appreciated than I think you know. I will try to address each of the items below, and then I will try to present the whole picture one more way that to me addresses the real concern behind all this mess —the assumption that God operates on our terms, or that our worth is in the same realm as his.

I won't admit to your understanding and you won't admit to mine.

And when did I say that God operates on our terms?
God set the terms.
One of those terms is that our will is moved by freedom to choose.

The problem here is that the entirety of any type of belief system that touches even slightly on predeterminism
DEMANDS that we do not have free will.

You can say you believe you think we do,
but until you explain how we could have free will AND predestination - your comments do not mean a lot.

Mark Quayle said:
No. Adam did precisely as he was predestined to do, down to each detail, according to his inclinations.

Could you explain why God made the Edenic Covenant with Adam?
If Adam did not have free will there was NO NEED for the Edenic Covenant.
In fact, it would have been rather silly on God's part.

If one understands the covenants, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them not to believe that our will is free and God knows it.

Mark Quayle said:
Usually said in a general statement, all causes subsequent to first cause are secondary causes. Technically only the very first effects became secondary causes, but then each subsequent cause would have to be numbered and I don't know what the numbers are. Lost count eons ago.

Not at all. We choose all day long, we have a say. But it always turns out that what we say, what we choose, is precisely what God decreed we would say. Indeed it is by his very decree that my choice is established. (Read the last three paragraphs at the end of this too-long post.)

Again...if the above is true, how is our will free?
You see, it is YOU that never replies.
But just keeps repeating.
Please explain what I've been asking.
How is your will free to choose vanilla ice-cream if I have preset you to order vanilla ice-cream?

Mark Quayle said:
When I leave my house in the morning, indeed when I get up in the morning and when I lie down, God's decree is a solid comfort to me, that I can never lose him nor can he lose me, except by HIS own decree. I can DEPEND on his mercy and justice, and not on my own silly efforts.

That goes for all Christians.
Nothing special about how you feel.

Mark Quayle said:
I assume that by, "creating our own reality", you mean, if reality is not produced as we do what we do —i.e. as time progresses? I guess the quick and easy answer is to ask, "who is the greater being here, the greater cause —are we? Or is God?"

They seem real enough, and no doubt, any one that is chosen is indeed the one that is able to happen. But nothing that doesn't happen can be demonstrated as having been possible to happen. It's just a fact, and a stupid, depressing one at that! I say it tongue in cheek, using the scientific logic of empiricism: We have never seen anything happen except what always does happen, so how can we say that anything more than that could have happened? How can we demonstrate empirically that more than what was chosen was possible? Extrapolating then, how can we say that more than whatever gets chosen CAN be possible?

Are you talking about molinism?
We can't get past the basic....I think that has to happen first.

Mark Quayle said:
Edit: (This is probably too much fun for me to think on and talk about, but the same principle can be applied to all progression of fact —not just choice. I am probably way too sure (haha) that only what can happen will happen, and so nothing else can happen. I say, too much fun, because I am aware that in the end, I don't know the half of it. I'm as much an idiot compared to God as anyone else is. (There! I have made my obligatory bow to self-skepticism.))

Mark Quayle said:
Even when the unregenerate thinks they are choosing Christ, if they are not doing it by faith, they are not choosing Christ. But they have freely chosen according to their preferences, even if only for that instant of choice. And again, #5 above: Freewill is only so because of God's predestination, i.e. having spoken each choice into being.

Let me rephrase then, when someone is presented with the option of choosing or rejecting Christ, and they think they are choosing Christ, unless God has changed their heart, they are choosing emotional relief, or freedom of guilt, or any number of things besides true submission to Christ.

Below is the scenario I mentioned at first, in my fifth paragraph above.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Think of all of creation as a ball (no, I'm not saying it is a ball. I'm presenting a tool to aid in understanding) containing all the detail this universe contains, down the minutest detail of particle physics and smaller, and down to the least component of spiritual reality. Call the ball, "Reality", if you must, but try to understand this, that it is spoken into being by God, and though it is not God himself — (it is, after all, 'other than' God) — its very existence and fact, from the largest principle to the smallest detail is nevertheless SUSTAINED by God; it is real because God spoke it: "Let there be...". Yet, there it is, all of it, including every large or small principle by which it operates —time, gravity, reason, math, beauty, mass, force, dimension, etc etc etc, all of it sustained by God's decree— spiritual principality and human empiricism, good and evil, and every other thing of a different kind of being from the being that God is, and yet fully dependent on God for its own being.

Now since you love free will — (who doesn't?) — I will not ask you, in this scenario, to give it up, but to consider how it is at least compatible with God's causation, and even subject to God's causation. God spoke that ball-full-of-fact into being, including the principle of time to which creation is apparently irrevocably subject, without himself being subject to time, nor to any other of creation's principles since they all proceeded from him. He can [deistically] set its clock spinning and leave it alone, or he can continue to interject himself into the ongoing system as he pleases —either way, it all continuously depends on him for its being, indeed for its very reality, and at any point in it, and at the end, it is no more and no less what he spoke into being than when it began. If for your peace of mind you need free will, then ok, think of all options as actual, think of all thoughts as spontaneous; do as you please, but do not for an instant think that you can do that apart from the fact that the creator created and sustained every detail of it.

Quite contrary to the mind games we play on ourselves, God is not subject to reality; reality is what it is because God is real. All things were made by him. He is of a higher order than what he created.

You're repeating what you always say.
The two cannot coexist.

That would be free will and predestination.

Mark Quayle · Dec 15, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
If you think our interchanges are useless, you should stop posting to me.
I think they're interesting because you don't seem to accept that we have a will
and that it is free.

You haven't ever explained how a will could be free AND we are predetermined to act in certain ways and to make all choices.
You said that EVERYTHING is predetermined...that would include our decisions...expecially those that are moral in nature since we're speaking of the bible.

Thanks for taking the time at least to answer. If you also took the time to read through this, thanks for that. Here you say I "haven't ever explained how a will could be free AND we are predetermined to act in certain ways and to make all choices." My last three paragraphs below were one way to explain it, and I have explained it many other ways, all to no avail. You don't even recognize them as at least attempts to explain, here.

But I DO accept that we have a will, and even that it is in a certain sense free: That is, free to choose according to our inclinations. Here, a repeated description of HOW: If we are inclined against God, and choose against God according to our inclinations, from where do those inclinations come? By causes; and from where do those causes come? From other causes; etc etc all the way back to God. —Accepted or not, I have explained.

In keeping with your claim that I never explained, I may as well, then, say that you have never explained HOW one chooses uncaused.

By the way, contrary to what you seem to assume here, ALL choices are moral choices.

GodsGrace101 said:
Then why did you make me go through the work of posting from them?
Your statement was that THE EARLY CHURCH DID NOT BELIEVE IN FREE WILL...

My definition of 'early church' was the New Testament church, and my meaning by 'free will' was uncaused free will. Again: The fact that the Bible is replete with choosing and even choices being exhorted or demanded, and with mentions and demonstrations of the will, does not imply that the will is uncaused.

GodsGrace101 said:
Show me some scripture that shows we do NOT have free will.
Show me some scripture that shows predestination is for our salvation.

Contrary to UNCAUSED free will:
Philippians 2:13 "...for it is God who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
Side note: the NIV says, "...for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

GodsGrace101 said:
It doesn't exist because the early church did not believe in either of those two premises
until ONE THEOLOGIAN, Augustine, (5th century) came up with odd ideas which were never accepted.
To this day.

Except for Jesus, Paul and the rest, and the Old Testament scriptures.

GodsGrace101 said:
Not to know the difference between will and free will.

Excuse me? What have we been talking about this whole time?

GodsGrace101 said:
Did you know that quantum physics is beginning to find that even atoms have free will?
You should look into this.

No, actually they are not. They are finding that they so far are incapable of explaining why it appears that way. Notice, that you say here, "beginning to find" —not, "...quantum physics has found that..."

GodsGrace101 said:
Are we reading the same bible?
My bible states that we have a free will.

Well, yes, we ARE reading the same Bible. It appears to me rather obvious that we are reading it differently! The Bible does not state that we have UNCAUSED free will.

GodsGrace101 said:
And when did I say that God operates on our terms?
God set the terms.
One of those terms is that our will is moved by freedom to choose.

That poetic construction isn't even used by Arminians.

GodsGrace101 said:
The problem here is that the entirety of any type of belief system that touches even slightly on predeterminism
DEMANDS that we do not have free will.

Then, you demand UNCAUSED free will, which is neither Biblical nor logical.

GodsGrace101 said:
You can say you believe you think we do,
but until you explain how we could have free will AND predestination - your comments do not mean a lot.

Very well then, since you have so far rejected all explanations that I have been able to present...

GodsGrace101 said:
Could you explain why God made the Edenic Covenant with Adam?
If Adam did not have free will there was NO NEED for the Edenic Covenant.
In fact, it would have been rather silly on God's part.

Choice was enough, will was enough. UNCAUSED will not necessary.

GodsGrace101 said:
If one understands the covenants, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them not to believe that our will is free and God knows it.

Real choice —will— is enough. UNCAUSED will is not necessary.

GodsGrace101 said:
Again...if the above is true, how is our will free?
You see, it is YOU that never replies.
But just keeps repeating.
Please explain what I've been asking.
How is your will free to choose vanilla ice-cream if I have preset you to order vanilla ice-cream?

If, at the moment I choose, my preference is vanilla ice cream, why does it need to be an UNCAUSED preference, for me to have chosen?

GodsGrace101 said:
"When you leave your house in the morning, you believe everything is already planned out.
It's kind of unreal.
Mark Quayle said:
When I leave my house in the morning, indeed when I get up in the morning and when I lie down, God's decree is a solid comfort to me, that I can never lose him nor can he lose me, except by HIS own decree. I can DEPEND on his mercy and justice, and not on my own silly efforts.

GodsGrace101 said:
That goes for all Christians.
Nothing special about how you feel.

Apparently, since you [seem to] think that God's decree and our choice are mutually exclusive, you also expect me to think I have no choice. I've been trying to explain over and over, "Not so! I do have choice. We do choose. In fact, if it was not for God's decree, in his very act of creation, I would not even exist, nevermind to be able to choose! It is by his decree that my choices are established!"

Mark Quayle said:
I assume that by, "creating our own reality", you mean, if reality is not produced as we do what we do —i.e. as time progresses? I guess the quick and easy answer is to ask, "who is the greater being here, the greater cause —are we? Or is God?"

GodsGrace101 said:
Are you talking about molinism?
We can't get past the basic....I think that has to happen first.

I don't know. You were the one who said, "How is anything real if we're not creating our own reality?". What did you mean by that?

GodsGrace101 said:
You're repeating what you always say.
The two cannot coexist.

That would be free will and predestination.

—As you, likewise, are repeating what you always say. I guess you had no comments about anything there I said. Oh well, at least (I think) it has been pretty well established here, that by "freewill", you mean what some call Libertarian Free Will, or UNCAUSED will and UNCAUSED choice. And since I have been repeating, I will repeat here: Uncaused will and uncaused choice are both logically and Biblically invalid notions.

GodsGrace101 · Dec 18, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Thanks for taking the time at least to answer. If you also took the time to read through this, thanks for that. Here you say I "haven't ever explained how a will could be free AND we are predetermined to act in certain ways and to make all choices." My last three paragraphs below were one way to explain it, and I have explained it many other ways, all to no avail. You don't even recognize them as at least attempts to explain, here.

Hi Mark,
I always read your entire posts.
They take time and I think it would be nasty not to read such well thought out posts.
Yes, honestly I do have a problem with a will being free AND predeterminism.
IOW, It's like you giving a child the choice of what flavor ice-cream he wants
BUT
YOU have already predetermined which flavor he will choose.
HOW is that free will?

You say you don't believe in compatibilist free will (if I remember correctly), but that is exactly what you believe in, at least unless you're making up another TYPE of will.

Compatibilist free will says that you choose what you want to choose,
but it is God making you will to make that choice.
IOW, it's coerced, it's forced.

It would be easy if you agreed, but then you go on to say that you are not a compatibilist.
Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

Mark Quayle said:
But I DO accept that we have a will, and even that it is in a certain sense free: That is, free to choose according to our inclinations. Here, a repeated description of HOW: If we are inclined against God, and choose against God according to our inclinations, from where do those inclinations come? By causes; and from where do those causes come? From other causes; etc etc all the way back to God. —Accepted or not, I have explained.

This is Romans 6:16
We are slaves of the one to whom we present ourselves.
We present ourselves.
What comes first in your opinion?
We present ourselves to a being and then serve that being by our actions...
or do we act in favor of that being and then present ourselves to him?
The being in mind would, of course, be either God or satan.

I believe we act in favor of that being before we even consciously decide to...
At some point, however, it does become our decision.
So the cause would be either God or satan?

Mark Quayle said:
In keeping with your claim that I never explained, I may as well, then, say that you have never explained HOW one chooses uncaused.

I believe we are free agents...able to decide with no coercion from outside forces.
I believe every decision we make has reasons and we are affected by our belief and moral system,
but the decision is ours and is not caused by either God or satan.
We choose whom we wish to serve.

Romans...we present OURSELVES.

Romans 12:1 Present YOURSELVES as a living sacrifice.
Again, we present ourselves...
No coercion, only influences that do guide our choice.
We can be influenced by the teaching of our parents, or yes, even by God.
But God would not be causing my choice.

Mark Quayle said:
By the way, contrary to what you seem to assume here, ALL choices are moral choices.

How?
Not every choice is moral...
Whether I want to buy a red car or a blue car has nothing to do with morality.

Mark Quayle said:
My definition of 'early church' was the New Testament church, and my meaning by 'free will' was uncaused free will. Again: The fact that the Bible is replete with choosing and even choices being exhorted or demanded, and with mentions and demonstrations of the will, does not imply that the will is uncaused.

Of course I have to accept what you believe to be the early church.
In scholarly circles however (of which I don't take part) the early church means at about 100AD or, at least, after 70AD.
There was no early church before that - Christians worshipped with their Jewish counter-parts in the synogague.

Again, why give someone a choice, if it has already been made for them?

In Deuteronomy 29:29 God is mad (according to the people) because they forsook the covenant God had made with their fathers when God brought them out of the land of Egypt. The people went and served other gods, so God was angry and brought curses onto the land.

Here's my question:

God made a Covenant with Moses. It was a conditional covenant, bilateral - between God and man.
If God makes a CONDITIONAL covenant with man...a covenant with blessings if obeyed, and curses if not obeyed...
how could man's decision possibly go back to God?

It wouldn't make any sense and God is a reasonable God.

How did the decision of the Israelites to make the golden calf go back to God?

Mark Quayle said:
Contrary to UNCAUSED free will:
Philippians 2:13 "...for it is God who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
Side note: the NIV says, "...for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

Phil 2:13 is a good verse for what you believe.
But if you read just a couple of verses before, Paul is telling the Philippians to work to show their salvation:
Philippians 2:12-16
12Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear.
13For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
14Do everything without complaining and arguing, 15so that no one can criticize you. Live clean, innocent lives as children of God, shining like bright lights in a world full of crooked and perverse people. 16Hold firmly to the word of life;

Wouldn't you say that this is the work of the Holy Spirit?
We must work to show our good deeds, the result of our salvation (as Jesus asked us to do, Mat 25)
and the Holy Spirit specifically helps us toward that goal by desire and power.

John 16:7 Jesus tells the Apostles that the Spirit will convict of sin, He will be our HELPER.
No coercion here either...

Ephesians 4:28-29
23Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes. 24Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.
25So stop telling lies. Let us tell our neighbors the truth, for we are all parts of the same body. 26And “don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27for anger gives a foothold to the devil.
28If you are a thief, quit stealing. Instead, use your hands for good hard work, and then give generously to others in need. 29Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them.
30And do not bring sorrow to God’s Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own,e guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.
31Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior. 32Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.

We're told above to allow the Holy Spirit to renew us,
To PUT ON the Holy Spirit,
To follow the rules Paul is giving,
and to not anger the Holy Spirit - which means that we could.

I see total freedom here with no outside coercion.

Mark Quayle said:
Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Not sure of your point...

Mark Quayle said:
If, at the moment I choose, my preference is vanilla ice cream, why does it need to be an UNCAUSED preference, for me to have chosen?

What caused you to choose vanilla -
except for the fact that you like it better than a different flavor?

Mark Quayle said:
GodsGrace101 said:
"When you leave your house in the morning, you believe everything is already planned out.
It's kind of unreal.
Mark Quayle said:
When I leave my house in the morning, indeed when I get up in the morning and when I lie down, God's decree is a solid comfort to me, that I can never lose him nor can he lose me, except by HIS own decree. I can DEPEND on his mercy and justice, and not on my own silly efforts.

Apparently, since you [seem to] think that God's decree and our choice are mutually exclusive, you also expect me to think I have no choice. I've been trying to explain over and over, "Not so! I do have choice. We do choose. In fact, if it was not for God's decree, in his very act of creation, I would not even exist, nevermind to be able to choose! It is by his decree that my choices are established!"

Right!
If God DECREES your choice....
You don't have a choice!
Seems really easy to understand...

You have this first cause idea...
But it's the same.
If God causes your choice by going all the way back...
you have no choice.

What did Jesus mean in the following?
John 7:16-17
16So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17“If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Is God ultimately causing the above too?
IF anyone IS WILLING...

Sounds like libertarian free will to me.

Mark Quayle said:
Mark Quayle said:
I assume that by, "creating our own reality", you mean, if reality is not produced as we do what we do —i.e. as time progresses? I guess the quick and easy answer is to ask, "who is the greater being here, the greater cause —are we? Or is God?"

Because God knows something is going to happen,
does not mean He caused it to happen.
You are a calvinist, I believe.
Although you say you don't agree with that teaching.

Mark Quayle said:
I don't know. You were the one who said, "How is anything real if we're not creating our own reality?". What did you mean by that?

If we do NOT create our own reality --- our own day to day live,
it means we're in a computer game and have no worth at all except to carry out the orders of the initiator of the game.
I create my own reality because I decide what time to wake up, what time to leave the house, what time to eat.

You, OTOH, trust God in every little thing you do, stating that HE decides everything for you as He is the ultimate cause...so HE is creating your reality.
And you're just playing along like a robot or a chess piece.
You're just part of a game.

Mark Quayle said:
—As you, likewise, are repeating what you always say. I guess you had no comments about anything there I said. Oh well, at least (I think) it has been pretty well established here, that by "freewill", you mean what some call Libertarian Free Will, or UNCAUSED will and UNCAUSED choice. And since I have been repeating, I will repeat here: Uncaused will and uncaused choice are both logically and Biblically invalid notions.

LIbertarian free will is the only will spoken of in the bible.
Does choice denote free will or not?

And please consider the scripture I posted, as I did to yours.

Mark Quayle · Dec 18, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
Hi Mark,
I always read your entire posts.
They take time and I think it would be nasty not to read such well thought out posts.
Yes, honestly I do have a problem with a will being free AND predeterminism.
IOW, It's like you giving a child the choice of what flavor ice-cream he wants
BUT
YOU have already predetermined which flavor he will choose.
HOW is that free will?

You say you don't believe in compatibilist free will (if I remember correctly), but that is exactly what you believe in, at least unless you're making up another TYPE of will.

Compatibilist free will says that you choose what you want to choose,
but it is God making you will to make that choice.
IOW, it's coerced, it's forced.

It would be easy if you agreed, but then you go on to say that you are not a compatibilist.
Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

Maybe I did say I'm not a compatibilist; I remember saying a long time ago to someone that I don't like the handle because it is usually described according to precepts that I don't necessarily hold to, and then, because others mean by it things I don't. If I google it, there is a very simple description —merely that the two (predestination and true choice) are not mutually exclusive— and that does fit me. But there's a much longer description that is not entirely representative to me.

Either way, the question to me is actually a moot question, but if one needs to know how both are possible, I can try to explain (which Is something I do daily here, lol) —I don't see how they can possibly be mutually exclusive, but I do understand how one's thinking can come up with that. But to me it is not logical nor Biblical to say that God having ordained every detail and all things rules out uncaused choice, (ie. free will).

GodsGrace101 said:
This is Romans 6:16
We are slaves of the one to whom we present ourselves.
We present ourselves.
What comes first in your opinion?
We present ourselves to a being and then serve that being by our actions...
or do we act in favor of that being and then present ourselves to him?
The being in mind would, of course, be either God or satan.

I believe we act in favor of that being before we even consciously decide to...
At some point, however, it does become our decision.
So the cause would be either God or satan?

You say, "What comes first, in your opinion? We present ourselves to a being..." Notice what you put at the head of your line of causation here: WE. But that is far from what comes first. As far as causation goes, you 'jumped in line!'

GodsGrace101 said:
I believe we are free agents...able to decide with no coercion from outside forces.
I believe every decision we make has reasons and we are affected by our belief and moral system,
but the decision is ours and is not caused by either God or satan.
We choose whom we wish to serve.

Romans...we present OURSELVES.

Romans 12:1 Present YOURSELVES as a living sacrifice.
Again, we present ourselves...
No coercion, only influences that do guide our choice.
We can be influenced by the teaching of our parents, or yes, even by God.
But God would not be causing my choice.

It is a mistaken construction that assumes if God causes, that God coerces.

GodsGrace101 said:
How?
Not every choice is moral...
Whether I want to buy a red car or a blue car has nothing to do with morality.

This is kind of a side dish to the main course, but it is related. I will not try here to show how every choice is a moral choice. But I will say that one way I try to explain it is to say that even if there is no right or wrong as to which pair of socks I wear, God wants to be there with you watching you decide. I argued with a dear Uncle of mine about 'free will' in which discussion he said that there are good things, and bad things, and neutral things, like rocks and air and even fact itself. To me it is more than clear that rocks and air and indeed, fact itself, are not neutral, but are 'of God' for God's purposes. They are therefore good.

GodsGrace101 said:
Of course I have to accept what you believe to be the early church.
In scholarly circles however (of which I don't take part) the early church means at about 100AD or, at least, after 70AD.
There was no early church before that - Christians worshipped with their Jewish counter-parts in the synogague.

Again, why give someone a choice, if it has already been made for them?

In Deuteronomy 29:29 God is mad (according to the people) because they forsook the covenant God had made with their fathers when God brought them out of the land of Egypt. The people went and served other gods, so God was angry and brought curses onto the land.

Here's my question:

God made a Covenant with Moses. It was a conditional covenant, bilateral - between God and man.
If God makes a CONDITIONAL covenant with man...a covenant with blessings if obeyed, and curses if not obeyed...
how could man's decision possibly go back to God?

It wouldn't make any sense and God is a reasonable God.

How did the decision of the Israelites to make the golden calf go back to God?

I'm going to have to make this into two posts, as it seems to have gone beyond the limit of 1800 characters.

Mark Quayle · Dec 18, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
Phil 2:13 is a good verse for what you believe.
But if you read just a couple of verses before, Paul is telling the Philippians to work to show their salvation:
Philippians 2:12-16
12Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear.
13For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
14Do everything without complaining and arguing, 15so that no one can criticize you. Live clean, innocent lives as children of God, shining like bright lights in a world full of crooked and perverse people. 16Hold firmly to the word of life;

Wouldn't you say that this is the work of the Holy Spirit?
We must work to show our good deeds, the result of our salvation (as Jesus asked us to do, Mat 25)
and the Holy Spirit specifically helps us toward that goal by desire and power.

John 16:7 Jesus tells the Apostles that the Spirit will convict of sin, He will be our HELPER.
No coercion here either...

But again, you assume if God causes all things, that he coerces. It does not follow. God makes, God influences, God brings to mind, God does all sorts of things, in order to bring about the choices that will be made —he doesn't only command and suggest. I don't remember who I described the Jonah story to: That God put Jonah through all sorts of things in order for him to have the attitude and demeanor and appearance that he had when he finally obeyed God. The atheist will mock: "Why does God go through all that trouble, if he is omnipotent? Why not immediately make Jonah look and act like that, instead going through it all bit by bit? Or better yet, why not just make Ninevah repentant, without Jonah?", and I say, "Maybe from God's point of view, he did instantly do that, but this is how he did it!"

Anyhow, yes, God coerced Jonah to make his free decision. He did not, however coerce Jonah (in the same way) every step of the way to that end. He CAUSED Jonah to hate Ninevah, and yes, Jonah caused that himself. He thereby CAUSED Jonah's rebellion, and thereby CAUSED there to be an attempted escape by Jonah etc etc etc.

GodsGrace101 said:
Ephesians 4:28-29
23Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes. 24Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.
25So stop telling lies. Let us tell our neighbors the truth, for we are all parts of the same body. 26And “don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27for anger gives a foothold to the devil.
28If you are a thief, quit stealing. Instead, use your hands for good hard work, and then give generously to others in need. 29Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them.
30And do not bring sorrow to God’s Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own,e guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.
31Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior. 32Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.

We're told above to allow the Holy Spirit to renew us,
To PUT ON the Holy Spirit,
To follow the rules Paul is giving,
and to not anger the Holy Spirit - which means that we could.

I see total freedom here with no outside coercion.

I also see no outside coercion.

GodsGrace101 said:
Show me some scripture that shows predestination is for our salvation.
Mark Quayle said:
Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

GodsGrace101 said:
Not sure of your point...

Ephesians 2 shows predestination is for our salvation. It describes here both predestination, to include the purpose of predestination, and what that predestination entails —the fact we were dead, and were made alive even though we were dead, and that, by Grace, through which he raised us up for his purposes.

GodsGrace101 said:
What caused you to choose vanilla -
except for the fact that you like it better than a different flavor?

Exactly. So, WHY do I like it better? Always, another cause behind each effect.

GodsGrace101 said:
Right!
If God DECREES your choice....
You don't have a choice!
Seems really easy to understand...

You have this first cause idea...
But it's the same.
If God causes your choice by going all the way back...
you have no choice.

What did Jesus mean in the following?
John 7:16-17
16So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17“If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Is God ultimately causing the above too?
IF anyone IS WILLING...

Sounds like libertarian free will to me.

You cannot show me how God decreeing my choice means I don't have a choice.

All good philosophy and science assumes the following to be true, that if a thing exists, it is caused to exist, unless it is self-existent. All effects are caused. All things that begin to exist were caused to exist. Einstein balked at the notion that quantum physics suggests that anything can happen be observed to happen apart from that thing being caused to happen.

I don't know if I've laid out this sequence of thought for you before: Take all you believe, assume it true, including even that integrity/reality of actual real choice, however you reason it to be. (Most Freewillers are ok with the notion that there are multiple causes behind their preferences and influences upon their choices. In fact, I note that some of them even say that what a person might choose is sometimes very predictable.) Anyhow, there is no end of cause impinging on one's decisions, including frame of mind at the time, usual preferences, needs, sudden desires vs long term hopes and the list goes on and on. There is, at least, no such thing as completely uninfluenced decision. Ok. Take from that understanding the fact that the effect (the decision) is done by at least some influence, and that each influence descended from other causes. If you leave God out of the mix as first cause, then most have no problem with this line of thinking so far. But if not, WHY not? And if you add God to the list of causes, as the beginning of them all, how does that change anything as to whether the decision was real?

Unlike some others on this site, I think you would at least agree with me that there is nothing that can happen without God being at least aware of it. I'm guessing you also would agree that God at least knew about it (even if he somehow did not cause it) from the beginning. I'm thinking you would shrink from the attraction of the notion that anything can be unknown to God until it comes to pass —that there are things that can happen, which in and of themselves ARE the future-created-reality-as-it-happens such that God did not know about that future —that all this sort of thing speaks contrary to the Bible and to good reason.

I'll leave it there for now and not try to force the issue. I'm hoping you can at least admit to this bigger picture.

GodsGrace101 said:
Because God knows something is going to happen,
does not mean He caused it to happen.
You are a calvinist, I believe.
Although you say you don't agree with that teaching.

I don't know where I said I don't agree with that teaching. —with what teaching? Calvinism? I easily agree with most of what Calvinism teaches, that I am aware of. Not really sure what they teach that I DON'T agree with, other than a point of view stance, perhaps.

GodsGrace101 said:
If we do NOT create our own reality --- our own day to day live,
it means we're in a computer game and have no worth at all except to carry out the orders of the initiator of the game.
I create my own reality because I decide what time to wake up, what time to leave the house, what time to eat.

You, OTOH, trust God in every little thing you do, stating that HE decides everything for you as He is the ultimate cause...so HE is creating your reality.
And you're just playing along like a robot or a chess piece.
You're just part of a game.

That's fine to see yourself that way, but can you not see how that is all one kind of fact, within the larger fact of God's having caused it to come into being?

GodsGrace101 said:
LIbertarian free will is the only will spoken of in the bible.
Does choice denote free will or not?

And please consider the scripture I posted, as I did to yours.

GodsGrace101 said:
Philippians 2:12-16
12Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear.
13For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
14Do everything without complaining and arguing, 15so that no one can criticize you. Live clean, innocent lives as children of God, shining like bright lights in a world full of crooked and perverse people. 16Hold firmly to the word of life;

Wouldn't you say that this is the work of the Holy Spirit?
We must work to show our good deeds, the result of our salvation (as Jesus asked us to do, Mat 25)
and the Holy Spirit specifically helps us toward that goal by desire and power.

John 16:7 Jesus tells the Apostles that the Spirit will convict of sin, He will be our HELPER.
No coercion here either...

Ephesians 4:28-29
23Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes. 24Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.
25So stop telling lies. Let us tell our neighbors the truth, for we are all parts of the same body. 26And “don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27for anger gives a foothold to the devil.
28If you are a thief, quit stealing. Instead, use your hands for good hard work, and then give generously to others in need. 29Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them.
30And do not bring sorrow to God’s Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own,e guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.
31Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior. 32Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.

I assume you are referring to the above, and particularly to this:
John 7:16-17
16"So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17“If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself."

I'm sorry, but I don't see how that rules out God's having spoken all fact into being. I see no contradiction between the two things there: real actual true choice, real will, and God's causation of it. Every action by man mentioned in these references, is indeed real. Your argument seems to say it is not if it is caused by God. Mine, is that it is not real if it is NOT caused by God. God spoke. We live it out.

And I expect that your mind hits a dead end, where my mind sees freedom, in that it is only by the fact that God has caused my choices, that there is anything real about them!

This is an alternative to the view of Calvinism

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