Is belief in an eternal punishment in hell necessary?

sawdust · Dec 5, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Trustworthiness is not what I get out of that. If he does that to others, who's next?

Does what?

didactics · Dec 5, 2022

Andrewn said:
Everyone accepts that God is omniscient, even those who believe in open theism. But this is not how your Calvinist preachers define Predestination. The Calvinist belief in limited atonement is a pernicious error. "John Calvin rejected the idea that God permits rather than actively decrees the damnation of sinners, as well as other evil.[53]"

Predestination - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Open Theist will say that God is still omniscient, or all-knowing, but only in the sense that He knows all things that can be known.
And the future is not one of those things that can be known.
Foreknowledge is one aspect of omniscience they reject.

Der Alte · Dec 5, 2022

didactics said:
The Open Theist will say that God is still omniscient, or all-knowing, but only in the sense that He knows all things that can be known.
And the future is not one of those things that can be known.
Foreknowledge is one aspect of omniscience they reject.

Isaiah 46:10
(10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Halbhh · Dec 6, 2022

Saint Steven said:
I've noticed a lot of this "repent" before "belief" statements on the forum lately. I thought repentance (turning) was a result, not a precursor, to a restored relationship with God.

An important question! Of course, not everyone is precisely the same -- some come to faith as young children, with little or nothing really needing repentance at that point, but others of course come as adults that certainly have done some real wrongs in life.

But as to regarding those adults, whether repentance is part of that initial first step for an adult long in sins, let's trust Christ knows, and here's what we read from Him:

Matthew 4:17 - Jesus Begins His Ministry

From that time on Jesus began to preach, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.

biblehub.com

(a helpful passage is Christ teaching us that those who are repentant are then justified: Bible Gateway passage: Luke 18:9-14 - New International Version)

And we see this re-confirmed in the first baptisms after Christ created the gospel through the cross:

Acts 2:38 - Three Thousand Believe

Peter replied, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

biblehub.com

Repentance is the step of admitting one has been a sinner, so it's hand in hand with relying on Christ in faith for the forgiveness of sins.

Significantly, repentance is an act of faith. (so, when someone repents, then they are showing faith in Christ)

Saint Steven · Dec 6, 2022

Halbhh said:
Repentance is the step of admitting one has been a sinner, so it's hand in hand with relying on Christ in faith for the forgiveness of sins.

Significantly, repentance is an act of faith. (so, when someone repents, then they are showing faith in Christ)

It seems that any disagreement we are having is about definitions. That isn't how I understand repentance at all. No worries, this is a common (though aggravating for me) thing among Christians. I understand what you are saying.

To me, CONFESSION "is the step of admitting one has been a sinner". (not repentance)
REPENTANCE is to turn away from, or toward, something.

didactics · Dec 7, 2022

Saint Steven said:
It seems that any disagreement we are having is about definitions. That isn't how I understand repentance at all. No worries, this is a common (though aggravating for me) thing among Christians. I understand what you are saying.

To me, CONFESSION "is the step of admitting one has been a sinner". (not repentance)
REPENTANCE is to turn away from, or toward, something.

Sorry that this topic is frustrating to you. The was I see it is repentance is a larger encompassing word that includes confession, when we consider the kind of repentance the Bible calls us to. Yes, repentance means a change of mind, but when the Bible speaks of it as a condition for salvation, it is my understanding that we are to repent of sins in particular. A change of mind implies moving in a new direction or really the opposite direction. When we repent we must always take at least three clear steps. You can remember these three essential steps by using the acronym CAR. The first step in the process of repentance is to confess your sin. The second step is to affirm God's forgiveness of your sin. The third step is to request Jesus' grace to change. I don't want to speak for Halbhh but I think what he should mean to say is that repentance is an act of grace, God's grace; repentance is the means by which you lay hold of Jesus' forgiving and transforming grace.

Trusting in Him · Dec 10, 2022

Abraham once said " shall not the God of the whole earth do right" and I believe that God will do exactly that. God knows all things and jusdges in righteousness. His righteous judgement is not arbetary. Who are we to accuse God of not caring? He sent his own Son to died for our salvation. It must be obvious to all that God has made a full and mercyfull privision for mankind in allowing His son to die for own sins in our place. However, those who have not accepted the gift of eternal life purchased bt the death of His son, are held to be guilty of His death and suffering, because His Son died for them and they have not accepted his abundant and gracious gift of salvation and eternal life. What more can God have done! Is He angry about this? It certainly appears so!

Since He is the creator of the entire universe and we are merly part of His creation, should be not honour and respect him and be grateful for His gift of life. So why do some of us feel that God is not a loving God, when so many of us can testify to the goodness and love which we have personally received from Him. When God breathed his spirit into Adam, He imparted something which is eternal into all of the homan race and we all as a result have an eternal destiny. We do not simple cease to exist, go on for ever. Is Gods plan that as many who will choose him as their God, master and savior, will inherit a blessed eternal existence in fellowship with Himi. Be we are those who has chosen not to neglect so great a salvation.

If the punishment of the wicked were to be somehow diminish, then that also diminishes the degree of how great our salvation is and therefore diminished the glory due to God for such a great salvation. Sorry, but who are we to say that God does not have the right to judge righteousnessly. I have lived too long to think that I can question the goodness and love of my God and Saviour to me. His has a plan and purpose for my life and also for all other who have accepted Him as their Lord and master of their lives. Do you think that we are saved to do as we please? I hope not! I am nearing the end of my days and I have lernt, that the fear of the Lord is truely, the beginning of wisdom as the bible says!

Der Alte · Feb 10, 2023

Hmm said:
I would quickly change it back again if I were you before anyone notices. Compare your "quick check" against the scholarship of someone of Ramelli's stature:
"The historian Ilaria Ramelli comments that when Augustine described the Universalists as "indeed very many" (immo quam plurimi), what he meant is that they were a "vast majority" (Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11). That is what the Latin word plurimi, from the adjective plurimus, implies."

This post has bothered me for quite some time. So I decided to look up the phrase "vast majority" in Latin. I found that that exact phrase is written "magna pars." Since Latin was Augustine's native language, if he had intended to say "vast majority" he would have written "magna pars" NOT "immo quam plurimi!" Another swing and a miss for the high priestess of UR.

Der Alte · Feb 10, 2023

public hermit said:
Well, if you can trust his observation of his own experience you ought to question his hellish doctrine regarding that which he never saw. Come on, Der Alte.

I missed this post when first posted but I revisited another post on this page and decided to post a response. I didn't say or imply that I trusted Augustine. I was responding to another poster's misrepresentation of what Augustine said. See my post #348, above.
And you should feel free to correct me if I ever quote Augustine in support of anything. Which will be never. But as for what you and other misinformed UR-ites call "hellish doctrine." I need only quote the words of Jesus, Himself.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

Andrewn · Feb 11, 2023

Der Alte said:
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,

As I mentioned, aionios / eternal is an adjective that refers to timeless eternity / the divine realm.

Der Alte said:
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs.

Kolasis means punishment. But the words "correction" and "pruning" are nouns.

Der Alte · Feb 11, 2023

Andrewn said:
As I mentioned, aionios / eternal is an adjective that refers to timeless eternity / the divine realm.
Kolasis means punishment. But the words "correction" and "pruning" are nouns.

"Correct" is a verb, "correction" is a "noun" "Prune" is a verb, "pruning" is an infinitive.

Is belief in an eternal punishment in hell necessary?

Is belief in eternal punishment necessary for salvation?

Yes

No

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