the wrath of God

Jeff Saunders

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In the Chart I provided, and of which you responded to regarding "ainion," not once is God described as eternal. All the uses of eternal regard God's promises to us. Are you saying that all of the 71 times that "ainion" is used does not mean eternal?

As for your claim without evidence: You are working on an unproven premise. Your premise is that, "for the first 500 years of the church , not used as eternal unless it was described God." Except for Origin, none of the Early Church Fathers taught Universalism." And that has nothing to do with the Scriptures I quoted in the Chart for "anion," which in every instance, except two, can only mean "eternal" or "forever," and:

Regarding Hell: You are in error, because Christianity does not teach that hell is eternal; rather the Lake of Fire is eternal, and death and hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14), including everyone that causes sin.

Revelation 14:9-11 (WEB) 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10 (WEB) 10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever [aiōnas: noun accusative masculine plural] and ever [aiōnōn: noun genitive masculine plural].

Revelation 20::14-15 (WEB) 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

THE RESTORATION

Here is how Lord Jesus will restore all things at the end of the age...

Matthew 13:40-43 (WEB) 40 As therefore the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and those who do iniquity, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

That is restoration to purity - once all those who do evil are cast out. Then the righteous will shine in God's Kingdom forever.

Here again is how all things are restored in the end time - the New Heavens and the New Earth....

Revelation 21:5-8 (WEB) 5 He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” He said, “Write, for these words of God are faithful and true.” 6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22:12-16 (WEB) 12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

That is what the Restoration is at the end of the age.

Revelation 6:9-11 (WEB) 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed for the Word of God, and for the testimony of the Lamb which they had. 10 They cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, Master, the holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 A long white robe was given to each of them. They were told that they should rest yet for a while, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who would also be killed even as they were, should complete their course.
I don’t know how you are coming to the conclusion that only Origen taught Apokatastasis but your sources are incomplete Alexandrians Clement / Gregory of Nyssa/Makrina ( Gregory’s sister) / Diodore of Tarsea/ Theodore of Mepsuestia / Theodore of Cyrus / Isaac of Nineveh and others were early church fathers that all taught Christian Universal Salvation. And there have been others through out the church that have also. I do have a question for you , if the lake of fire is the second death and it never ends then death goes on forever but in 1 Cor 15:26 “ the last enemy to be conquered is death “ How is death conquered if it goes on forever? Only when all have been restored will death be conquered that is why 1Cor 15:54 says “ Death has been swallowed up in victory”
 
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Let me ask you a question why was aionios/ olam , for the first 500 years of the church , not used as eternal unless it was described God ? The idea that hell is eternal come in from pagan religion to control people not just in this life but in the next also. If eternal was the intent the Greek word aidios which does have the meaning of eternal. I believe the idea of most people going to hell for eternity is straight from satan himself to make himself look more powerful than God , But I know that is not true Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for in the end God 100% satan 0% , I even believe that God is so loving and powerful that in the end even satan will bow his knee and will confess that Jesus is Lord then God will be all in all.
This is patently false, internet gossip. I have posted a lengthy post numerous times documenting that among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both Ge Hinnom and sheol which was written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT. as Gehenna and Hades . Link to my most recent post.
Note in the below quote Origen describes/defines aionios in John 4:14 as "never perishes, 2X, remains, not taken away and not consumed.
(59) He [Heracleon] is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.[John 4:14]
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.​
 
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I don’t know how you are coming to the conclusion that only Origen taught Apokatastasis but your sources are incomplete Alexandrians Clement / Gregory of Nyssa/Makrina ( Gregory’s sister) / Diodore of Tarsea/ Theodore of Mepsuestia / Theodore of Cyrus / Isaac of Nineveh and others were early church fathers that all taught Christian Universal Salvation. And there have been others through out the church that have also. I do have a question for you , if the lake of fire is the second death and it never ends then death goes on forever but in 1 Cor 15:26 “ the last enemy to be conquered is death “ How is death conquered if it goes on forever? Only when all have been restored will death be conquered that is why 1Cor 15:54 says “ Death has been swallowed up in victory”
Posting a bunch of names does not show that they ever said anything.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Maybe it is just me but I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before responding. Joshua was the OT type of Jesus. They have the same name.
1 Cor 15 in this scripture the enemies are not just humans but principalities, authorities and powers , these are heavenly creations. Many times Christian people forget that Yahweh is setting right more than just the human world it’s also the spiritual world. And the last enemy to be conquered is death. Then ( 1 Cor 15:28 ) “ when all things have been subordinated to him then the Son himself also be subordinated to the one who has subordinated all things to him , so that God may be all in all. That is what making his enemies his footstool is all about . Apokatastasis the whole theme of scripture.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Posting a bunch of names does not show that they ever said anything.
I know I don’t know how to cut and paste like some , I have to type on my phone if I had to type out all the articles and what people say it would take all day . I put those names up because it’s true and if someone was really interested then they can do the work and read it for themselves. And you still have not responded to my question is the Bible the only way to know God?
 
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I know I don’t know how to cut and paste like some , I have to type on my phone if I had to type out all the articles and what people say it would take all day . I put those names up because it’s true and if someone was really interested then they can do the work and read it for themselves. And you still have not responded to my question is the Bible the only way to know God?
To copy/paste on a phone hold your finger at the point you want to start the copy. A box will appear one of the choices is copy. touch copy. With you finger drag the highlighted point down to where you want the copy to end. touch copy again. Go to where you want to paste touch that spot and touch paste at the prompt.
Saying something is true does not make it so. I have seen quite a few "quotes" which were not true. One cannot go verify a quote without the name of the document, page and paragraph etc.
About the Bible and knowing God. Do you know of any other way?
 
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1 Cor 15 in this scripture the enemies are not just humans but principalities, authorities and powers , these are heavenly creations. Many times Christian people forget that Yahweh is setting right more than just the human world it’s also the spiritual world. And the last enemy to be conquered is death. Then ( 1 Cor 15:28 ) “ when all things have been subordinated to him then the Son himself also be subordinated to the one who has subordinated all things to him , so that God may be all in all. That is what making his enemies his footstool is all about . Apokatastasis the whole theme of scripture.
An experience of mine as a lead into my point. In the 90s while travelling by plane for my employer the Dept. of Defense the man in the seat next to me was reading the Bible. To start a conversation I said, "That's a good book I like how it ends." He looked at me and smiled. Then I said, "You are a military aviator." He looked surprised and said, "Do I have a sign on my forehead?" I said, "No the glasses and the haircut." We were both wearing military issue glasses.
I have read the end of the book and I know how it ends.
Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​
Verse 4 "no more death." Vs. 5 "I make all things new."
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​
If all things are new vs. 4 then there can't be any, "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers," etc but Verse 8 eight groups of sinners are thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] which is still called the second death. If there is no more death after vs. 4 then these 8 groups of people do not die.
Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​
Ten more vss. the end, no more death, no more salvation. Only He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.
 
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This is patently false, internet gossip. I have posted a lengthy post numerous times documenting that among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both Ge Hinnom and sheol which was written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT. as Gehenna and Hades . Link to my most recent post.
Note in the below quote Origen describes/defines aionios in John 4:14 as "never perishes, 2X, remains, not taken away and not consumed.

(59) He [Heracleon] is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.[John 4:14]

(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
Philip of Alexandria and Josephus both said aeon “ is still only a limited period of time, usually a single lifetime, but perhaps as much a three generations” , if it was as cut and dry as you say there would not even be a debate
To copy/paste on a phone hold your finger at the point you want to start the copy. A box will appear one of the choices is copy. touch copy. With you finger drag the highlighted point down to where you want the copy to end. touch copy again. Go to where you want to paste touch that spot and touch paste at the prompt.
Saying something is true does not make it so. I have seen quite a few "quotes" which were not true. One cannot go verify a quote without the name of the document, page and paragraph etc.
About the Bible and knowing God. Do you know of any other way?
Thanks for the info I will have to try , I am not good with technology I am a paper and pen guy. As far as knowing God without the Bible yes it must be possible, Enoch knew God so well he was taken up into the heavenly and that was before anything written that we know about. The Bible school I went to taught that all truth is Gods truth so anything about God that is true is true . The Bible is not an exhaustive text about Yahweh he is infinite and can’t be contained in a book , there is more to Yahweh than just what is in our Bible. If he could be contained in a book he would finite and we know that is not true.
 
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Philip of Alexandria and Josephus both said aeon “ is still only a limited period of time, usually a single lifetime, but perhaps as much a three generations” , if it was as cut and dry as you say there would not even be a debate
***
Vague references such as that prove nothing. i.e. "This guy said this, that guy said that, and some other guy said something else." Here is how to quote a source.
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​
 
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Philip of Alexandria and Josephus both said aeon “ is still only a limited period of time, usually a single lifetime, but perhaps as much a three generations” , if it was as cut and dry as you say there would not even be a debate
***
Here is what Jesus said about "aionios.'" Guess Philip and Josephus never read Jesus.
“aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [.03%]
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T. [53%]
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T. [35%]
Despite some uninformed arguments “aionios” is never translated “age(s)” in the N.T. The noun “aion” is translated “age(s)”
= = = = = = = = = =
Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.
In twenty-four [24] of the following verses αἰώνιος/aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refers to something which is not/cannot be eternal, e.g. “world,”
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following 24 verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten [10] verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal/for ever/everlasting.”
"Aionios" is never translated "age" in the NT. That is impossible "aionios" is an adjective, "age" is a noun.

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας/lit. unto the eternity [aionas [PlMas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here definitely means eternity.
[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/aiona [lit. unto eternity]
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live forever” with “death.” If “live aiona” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiona” by definition here means “eternity.”
[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never
[εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” “age(s) is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen]I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][unto eternity][fn] see death."
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]
 
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[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​
In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/lit. unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] [lit: unto the eternity of eternities] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “unto the aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
 
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setst777

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I don’t know how you are coming to the conclusion that only Origen taught Apokatastasis but your sources are incomplete Alexandrians Clement / Gregory of Nyssa/Makrina ( Gregory’s sister) / Diodore of Tarsea/ Theodore of Mepsuestia / Theodore of Cyrus / Isaac of Nineveh and others were early church fathers that all taught Christian Universal Salvation. And there have been others through out the church that have also. I do have a question for you , if the lake of fire is the second death and it never ends then death goes on forever but in 1 Cor 15:26 “ the last enemy to be conquered is death “ How is death conquered if it goes on forever? Only when all have been restored will death be conquered that is why 1Cor 15:54 says “ Death has been swallowed up in victory”

Hi Jeff, after doing further research, the conclusion I draw is that Clement / Gregory of Nyssa/Makrina ( Gregory’s sister) / Diodore of Tarsea/ Theodore of Mepsuestia / Theodore of Cyrus / Isaac of Nineveh were all likely Universalists. And there may have been others.

Regarding the Second Death... First of all, the Bible teaches a final judgment called "The Second Death" - the Lake of Fire.

Your question is, how can death continue when 1 Corinthians 15:26 teaches that death is conquered - swallowed up in victory.

This regards physical death and corruption of the flesh. Death is conquered. All who believe in Lord Jesus (the righteous) will be resurrected to incorruptible life in the New Heavens and the New Earth. No more physical death or even sickness.

In the Kingdom of God, the New Heavens and the New Earth, death is conquered, and the righteous will shine in that Kingdom of Righteousness in incorruptible resurrected bodies in a renewed heavens and earth.

However, at the same time that God creates the New Heavens and New Earth where righteousness dwells, there will be a place called "outside" and "second death" where all that is wicked is cast into as their final estate at the restoration. This "death" is referring to separation from God - outside from His presence. This is referring to a place of condemnation for those who were unbelieving and wicked in this present life. These unrighteous ones are cast into a place in which they are shut out from the presence of God to suffer their final fate determined by all they did in the present life.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord

So the Restoration refers to life after the final judgment of the righteous and the unrighteous.

Revelation 21:5-8 (WEB) 5 He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” He said, “Write, for these words of God are faithful and true.” 6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22:12-16 (WEB) 12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

At the end of the Age, there will be a Restoration of all things, but that pertains to the Kingdom of God. For the wicked will be condemned in that place of wrath, called the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 13:40-43 (WEB) 40 As therefore the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and those who do iniquity, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

The Scriptures do not teach that the judgment is not final. Rather, at the end, when God makes everything new, there will be a judgment of the righteous and the unrighteous. And this judgment is a final judgment according to the Scriptures. I see know clear teaching either in the OT or NT that the judgment is temporary.

As for the word, "aionios,"

"Aionios," as used in the NT, the context (local and broader context) determines the meaning conveyed. For instance, when referring to eternal life or eternal condemnation, the local and broader context teaches us that this refers to a final state (thus eternal or continuous in its duration) of the righteous and sinners at the end of the age and into the next, as evidenced by the Scriptures I provided for you.

Grace is offered in this life, but after this life is complete, then comes the judgment - and the finality of that judgment either onto life or death is clearly taught throughout the Scriptures.

For instance:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
(WEB) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie; 12 and so, all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 3:16-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

The eternality of punishment to the unrighteous after this life is complete is taught by Lord Jesus in various ways and shows the finality of the last judgment, and so is something we should fear now. We must be alert now, so that we will be judged worthy of life in the hereafter. Some of these are as follows:

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Matthew 7:21-28 (WEB)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

Luke 13:23-28 (WEB) He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen up, and has shut the door, [finality of judgment] and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ then he will answer and tell you, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 He will say, ‘I tell you, I don’t know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s Kingdom, and yourselves being thrown outside.

Lord Jesus appears to be describing a place that the unrighteous will be cast into, and is eternal or final, because no one who is in that prison can pay anything. So this place is forever.

Matthew 5:22-26 (WEB)
25 Agree with your adversary quickly while you are with him on the way; lest perhaps the prosecutor deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison. 26 Most certainly I tell you, you shall by no means get out of there until you have paid the last penny.

Again, Lord Jesus appears to be describing a place that the unrighteous will be cast into, and is eternal, because no one who is in that prison can pay anything.

Luke 12:57-59 (WEB)
57 Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 For when you are going with your adversary before the magistrate, try diligently on the way to be released from him, lest perhaps he drag you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will by no means get out of there, until you have paid the very last penny.

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is another teaching by Lord Jesus of the finality the punishment of the wicked after this life is complete. See: Luke 16:19-31

The finality of the Judgment after this life is complete shows that grace is extended now, but not at the Judgment.

Hebrews 12:14-17 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal. 17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Hebrews 10:26-30 (WEB) 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the Blood of The Covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of Grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalms 135:14]

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB) 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 3:14-15 (WEB) 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Daniel 12:1-2 (WEB) At that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. At that time your people will be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Therefore, while God is love, and is merciful, that mercy to grant repentance onto life is limited to how a person responds to God's love and grace in this present life, so they may be judged worthy of life in the age to come.

That is restoration to purity - once all those who do evil are cast out. Then the righteous will shine in God's Kingdom forever.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Hi Jeff, after doing further research, the conclusion I draw is that Clement / Gregory of Nyssa/Makrina ( Gregory’s sister) / Diodore of Tarsea/ Theodore of Mepsuestia / Theodore of Cyrus / Isaac of Nineveh were all likely Universalists. And there may have been others.

Regarding the Second Death... First of all, the Bible teaches a final judgment called "The Second Death" - the Lake of Fire.

Your question is, how can death continue when 1 Corinthians 15:26 teaches that death is conquered - swallowed up in victory.

This regards physical death and corruption of the flesh. Death is conquered. All who believe in Lord Jesus (the righteous) will be resurrected to incorruptible life in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

In the Kingdom of God, the New Heavens and the New Earth, death is conquered, and the righteous will shine in that Kingdom of Righteousness.

However, at the same time that God creates the New Heavens and New Earth where righteousness dwells, there will be a place called "outside" and "second death" where all that is wicked is cast into as their final estate at the restoration. This "death" is referring to separation from God - outside from His presence. This is referring to a place of condemnation for the unbelieving and wicked in this present life - a place in which they are shut out from the presence of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord

So the Restoration refers to life after the final judgment of the righteous and the unrighteous.

Revelation 21:5-8 (WEB) 5 He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” He said, “Write, for these words of God are faithful and true.” 6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22:12-16 (WEB) 12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

At the end of the Age, there will be a Restoration of all things, but that pertains to the Kingdom of God. For the wicked will be condemned in that place of wrath, called the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 13:40-43 (WEB) 40 As therefore the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and those who do iniquity, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

The Scriptures do not teach that the judgment is not final. Rather, and the end of this age, when God makes everything new, there will be a judgment of the righteous and the unrighteous. And this judgment is a final judgment according to the Scriptures.

As for the word, "aionios,"

"Aionios," as used in the NT, the context (local and broader context) determines the meaning conveyed. For instance, when referring to eternal life or eternal condemnation, the local and broader context teaches us that this refers to a final state (thus eternal in its duration) of the righteous and sinners at the end of the age and into the next, as evidenced by the Scriptures I provided for you.

Grace is offered in this life, but after this life is complete, then comes the judgment - and the finality of that judgment either onto life or death is clearly taught throughout the Scriptures.

For instance:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
(WEB) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie; 12 and so, all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 3:16-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

The eternality of punishment to the unrighteous after this life is complete is taught by Lord Jesus in various ways and shows the finality of the last judgment. Some of these are as follows:

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Matthew 7:21-28 (WEB)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

Luke 13:23-28 (WEB) He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen up, and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ then he will answer and tell you, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 He will say, ‘I tell you, I don’t know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s Kingdom, and yourselves being thrown outside.

Matthew 5:22-26 (WEB)
25 Agree with your adversary quickly while you are with him on the way; lest perhaps the prosecutor deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison. 26 Most certainly I tell you, you shall by no means get out of there until you have paid the last penny.

Lord Jesus appears to be describing a place that the unrighteous will be cast into, and is eternal or final, because no one who is in that prison can pay anything. So this place is forever.

Luke 12:57-59 (WEB)
57 Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 For when you are going with your adversary before the magistrate, try diligently on the way to be released from him, lest perhaps he drag you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will by no means get out of there, until you have paid the very last penny.

Again, Lord Jesus appears to be describing a place that the unrighteous will be cast into, and is eternal, because no one who is in that prison can pay anything.

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is another teaching by Lord Jesus of the finality the punishment of the wicked after this life is complete. See: Luke 16:19-31

The finality of the Judgment after this life is complete shows that grace is extended now, but not at the Judgment.

Hebrews 12:14-17 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal. 17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Hebrews 10:26-30 (WEB) 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the Blood of The Covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of Grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalms 135:14]

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB) 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 3:14-15 (WEB) 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Daniel 12:1-2 (WEB) At that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. At that time your people will be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Therefore, while God is love, and is merciful, that mercy to grant repentance onto life is limited to how a person responds to God's love and grace in this present life, so they may be judged worthy of life in the age to come.

That is restoration to purity - once all those who do evil are cast out. Then the righteous will shine in God's Kingdom forever.
Thank you for all that, let me tell you a little about myself. I am 62 years old and grew up in the church mostly baptist , went to a 4 year Bible college and have worked in Christian ministries most of my life, so all that you have laid out I used to teach, so I understand where you are coming from. I set out to prove that UR was wrong and the more I dug into the first 300-500 years of the church the more I found out that this is what most of the early church believed to be true (Apokatastasis) The problem with the tradition that I believed was what does it say about God ? If God is all knowing then before he created man he knew that he was creating billions of people that he was going to have to torture forever and yet he created them anyway. This is not what I would call a loving God. He knew before he created even one person that he himself was going to have to die as a human for our sins. So he didn’t create us not knowing the outcome. If anyone acted like that we would call them a monster but because it’s God we don’t dare say that because we were afraid of eternal hell. Then I had to ask where does scripture teach that we can only accept Jesus when in our mortal body? Why does God stop pursuing us when our mortal body dies if our true self lives on. ( we are spiritual beings in a mortal body, not mortal bodies having a spiritual experience) that is why Jesus can say he leaves the 99 to pursue the 1 and will not stop till he gets all he paid for. Also I found out that most of the tradition came from Augustine and he used only Latin and the Latin Bible he used was not the best translation. Then I find out that the word translated eternal was aionios in Greek . This word comes from aion which is where we get eon from a limited amount of time not forever. Aionios is the verb form , and how can the verb form be eternal when the noun is limited? When you read the New Testament translating aionios as age enduring , the very term scripture uses God works in ages. Then God gets, what I had always been taught he wanted fellowship with all his creation. If he’ll is like a refinery a place where the dross is removed ( which is a theme all throughout the scripture) and as Jesus taught in the parable no one gets out till the last penny is paid . Now no more 2 wills of God (which I can’t find in scripture) so when scripture says “ it’s Gods will that none should parish “ he really means it, now Jesus really is the savior of the world , Jesus said himself I came not to judge the world but to save it . Now in the end as scripture says God will be all in all . God 100% he gets all that he paid for . I know that this goes against tradition but this is a God that is truly loving. My christology is now off the charts Jesus really is the savior of the world not a potential savior. God really does love all of his creation, does most of his creation rebel against them and that they would need refinement because sin so clouded them that they reject his best plan( dying to self partaking in Jesus death) ,I believe that that is who is talked about in Revelation of those outside the gate and can’t enter into the New Jerusalem they live for the ages on the New Earth. ( I always wondered why there were people who were on the new earth but could not go into the new Jerusalem if all people were in heaven or hell) My prayer to Yahweh was show me who you are not what tradition says and this is the road that I believe he wants me to walk down. My love for all of Gods creation has grown, I now understand why Jesus says when you did not do these things to the least of these you did not do it to me . All people are made in Gods image and all are his he leaves no one behind. I am convinced that this was Gods plan all along and that I did the same thing the Jews did in Jesus day they were so caught up in the tradition that they thought was honoring God that they didn’t recognize God when he came and they killed him. The only difference in my faith now is that it has gotten stronger and my love for Jesus is bigger when I see what an awesome God Yahweh is and I look forward to be partakers in his kingdom part of Gods family. I will never go back to the tradition of a God who is either nor powerful enough or not loving enough to redeem his whole creation.
 
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setst777

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Thank you for all that, let me tell you a little about myself. I am 62 years old and grew up in the church mostly baptist , went to a 4 year Bible college and have worked in Christian ministries most of my life, so all that you have laid out I used to teach, so I understand where you are coming from. I set out to prove that UR was wrong and the more I dug into the first 300-500 years of the church the more I found out that this is what most of the early church believed to be true (Apokatastasis) The problem with the tradition that I believed was what does it say about God ? If God is all knowing then before he created man he knew that he was creating billions of people that he was going to have to torture forever and yet he created them anyway. This is not what I would call a loving God. He knew before he created even one person that he himself was going to have to die as a human for our sins. So he didn’t create us not knowing the outcome. If anyone acted like that we would call them a monster but because it’s God we don’t dare say that because we were afraid of eternal hell. Then I had to ask where does scripture teach that we can only accept Jesus when in our mortal body? Why does God stop pursuing us when our mortal body dies if our true self lives on. ( we are spiritual beings in a mortal body, not mortal bodies having a spiritual experience) that is why Jesus can say he leaves the 99 to pursue the 1 and will not stop till he gets all he paid for. Also I found out that most of the tradition came from Augustine and he used only Latin and the Latin Bible he used was not the best translation. Then I find out that the word translated eternal was aionios in Greek . This word comes from aion which is where we get eon from a limited amount of time not forever. Aionios is the verb form , and how can the verb form be eternal when the noun is limited? When you read the New Testament translating aionios as age enduring , the very term scripture uses God works in ages. Then God gets, what I had always been taught he wanted fellowship with all his creation. If he’ll is like a refinery a place where the dross is removed ( which is a theme all throughout the scripture) and as Jesus taught in the parable no one gets out till the last penny is paid . Now no more 2 wills of God (which I can’t find in scripture) so when scripture says “ it’s Gods will that none should parish “ he really means it, now Jesus really is the savior of the world , Jesus said himself I came not to judge the world but to save it . Now in the end as scripture says God will be all in all . God 100% he gets all that he paid for . I know that this goes against tradition but this is a God that is truly loving. My christology is now off the charts Jesus really is the savior of the world not a potential savior. God really does love all of his creation, does most of his creation rebel against them and that they would need refinement because sin so clouded them that they reject his best plan( dying to self partaking in Jesus death) ,I believe that that is who is talked about in Revelation of those outside the gate and can’t enter into the New Jerusalem they live for the ages on the New Earth. ( I always wondered why there were people who were on the new earth but could not go into the new Jerusalem if all people were in heaven or hell) My prayer to Yahweh was show me who you are not what tradition says and this is the road that I believe he wants me to walk down. My love for all of Gods creation has grown, I now understand why Jesus says when you did not do these things to the least of these you did not do it to me . All people are made in Gods image and all are his he leaves no one behind. I am convinced that this was Gods plan all along and that I did the same thing the Jews did in Jesus day they were so caught up in the tradition that they thought was honoring God that they didn’t recognize God when he came and they killed him. The only difference in my faith now is that it has gotten stronger and my love for Jesus is bigger when I see what an awesome God Yahweh is and I look forward to be partakers in his kingdom part of Gods family. I will never go back to the tradition of a God who is either nor powerful enough or not loving enough to redeem his whole creation.

Hi Jeff. Thank you for your explanation of how you came to believe in "Apokatastasis." And thank you for expressing to me your faith in Lord Jesus, which I consider to be genuine and saving.

When I study God's Word with an open mind, trusting that God's Word is complete, and able to provide complete understanding, I do not see "Apokatastasis," as defined by Universalists, being taught. I am studying God's Word objectively and turn to God's Word for the answers.

True, others throughout history have believed in and taught Universalism but, as you well know, people believe and teach a lot of things. With over 30,000 different denominations of Christianity worldwide, all have beliefs which differ one from another. They all claim to have the Holy Spirit guide them. They all claim they have the Truth. That is scary. I know that no person who ever lived, except the incarnate Word of God, can be trusted to ensure my eternal life, so I prayerfully turn to and study His Word in context for His answers.

As for those outside the gate, who cannot enter, whom God rejects with the words 'I never knew you; depart from me you evil doers.' Can you show me the Scriptures that teach what you believe, that those who are already judged, those on the outside, are given another chance to get right with God? I will be pleased to review those Scriptures with you. Perhaps I am missing something.

The Greek word "aionios" historically has a broader meaning.

Regarding "aionios," I choose not to isolate its meaning outside of its context, because, historically, its range of meaning is broader than what you are conveying. While "eternal" may not be the exact word, the meaning is the same in most instances of its use in Scripture. The context, which I did convey to you by other Scriptures, show that "aionios" can also mean a final age or perpetual age either onto life (in God's presence) or death (shut out from God's presence). Since this Age is final or perpetual, the duration is understood to be eternal because of all the other Scriptures that teach us that the Judgment to come is final.

The Scriptures do not provide us with knowledge of any other age after the New Heavens and New earth begins. I see nothing in the Scriptures that teach about another chance to enter the Kingdom of God after the final judgment - the Second Death.

I believe Lord Jesus is Savior of the World as well, but my belief is founded on what the Scriptures actually teach that means. I repeatedly provided you Scriptures to review where Lord Jesus teaches us the finality and justice of his judgment on the wicked. And that is why I believe that God's Judgement is final, not because of man's tradition.

Along with Lord Jesus' teaching about the finality of judgment, the Scriptures then show us that Lord Jesus will judge all those who do not believe in him and do wickedly to a final judgment called the Second Death into the Lake of Fire. And this judgment is for ages and ages - perpetual with no end. I do not learn from the Scriptures that the Second Death is temporary.

Considering the 30,000+ denominations of Christianity, I don't feel worthy enough to believe in my own feelings and reasonings to guide what I will believe or not believe about God - how I think His love and justice should work. God's ways are not my ways. The Scriptures make very clear God's intentions, and God defines for us His love and righteousness, and His justice.

If I care about my eternal destiny, then I can do nothing but turn to the NT to find out God's plan of salvation. If God somehow does re-invite the wicked to salvation after they refused God and were judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire, then that should be found in His Word. But vengeance does belong to God, and although he desires all to be saved, the Scriptures continually warn us that only those who believe, and do what is right, will be saved. From what I gather from God's Word, only a remnant of humanity will actually be saved. Lord Jesus defined that remnant as "few" out of the mass of humanity. Sad but true.
 
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Der Alte

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Along with Lord Jesus' teaching about the finality of judgment, the Scriptures then show us that Lord Jesus will judge all those who do not believe in him and do wickedly to a final judgment called the Second Death into the Lake of Fire. And this judgment is for ages and ages - perpetual with no end. I do not learn from the Scriptures that the Second Death is temporary.
***
There is a little problem with this definition. "Aionios" is an adjective. "Age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.
 
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setst777

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There is a little problem with this definition. "Aionios" is an adjective. "Age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.
Yes, true. My reasoning is that "aionios" may more accuarately be defined as "perpetual," and so, could be understood to be a time frame, which is how it is used in rare incidences. Within the New Testament, most times "aionios" is contextually understood to be perpetual, without end.

In summary, while I may concede that "eternal" may not be the exact word to express "aionios," in reality, that is how this word is being used. The more historically accurate meaning for "aionios" may be more like "perpetual," which could be "temporary" or ongoing "without limit," depending on the context.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, true. My reasoning is that "aionios" may more accuarately be defined as "perpetual," and so, could be understood to be a time frame, which is how it is used in rare incidences. Within the New Testament, most times "aionios" is contextually understood to be perpetual, without end.
In summary, while I may concede that "eternal" may not be the exact word to express "aionios," in reality, that is how this word is being used. The more historically accurate meaning for "aionios" may be more like "perpetual," which could be "temporary" or ongoing "without limit," depending on the context.
See my posts #150 and #151 above, link below. Jesus defined aionios as eternal/everlasting 10 times. Paul and other writers also define "aionios". How do I explain other uses? Figurative.
 
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setst777

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See my posts #150 and #151 above, link below. Jesus defined aionios as eternal/everlasting 10 times. Paul and other writers also define "aionios". How do I explain other uses? Figurative.
Thank you. Yes, I did see that chart and "liked" it. I also included a chart showing how that word is actually used within the Scriptures in message #133.

These are all helpful evidences that give us comprehension of the word "aionios."

Blessings
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Hi Jeff. Thank you for your explanation of how you came to believe in "Apokatastasis." And thank you for expressing to me your faith in Lord Jesus, which I consider to be genuine and saving.

When I study God's Word with an open mind, trusting that God's Word is complete, and able to provide complete understanding, I do not see "Apokatastasis," as defined by Universalists, being taught. I am studying God's Word objectively and turn to God's Word for the answers.

True, others throughout history have believed in and taught Universalism but, as you well know, people believe and teach a lot of things. With over 30,000 different denominations of Christianity worldwide, all have beliefs which differ one from another. They all claim to have the Holy Spirit guide them. They all claim they have the Truth. That is scary. I know that no person who ever lived, except the incarnate Word of God, can be trusted to ensure my eternal life, so I prayerfully turn to and study His Word in context for His answers.

As for those outside the gate, who cannot enter, whom God rejects with the words 'I never knew you; depart from me you evil doers.' Can you show me the Scriptures that teach what you believe, that those who are already judged, those on the outside, are given another chance to get right with God? I will be pleased to review those Scriptures with you. Perhaps I am missing something.

The Greek word "aionios" historically has a broader meaning.

Regarding "aionios," I choose not to isolate its meaning outside of its context, because, historically, its range of meaning is broader than what you are conveying. While "eternal" may not be the exact word, the meaning is the same in most instances of its use in Scripture. The context, which I did convey to you by other Scriptures, show that "aionios" can also mean a final age or perpetual age either onto life (in God's presence) or death (shut out from God's presence). Since this Age is final or perpetual, the duration is understood to be eternal because of all the other Scriptures that teach us that the Judgment to come is final.

The Scriptures do not provide us with knowledge of any other age after the New Heavens and New earth begins. I see nothing in the Scriptures that teach about another chance to enter the Kingdom of God after the final judgment - the Second Death.

I believe Lord Jesus is Savior of the World as well, but my belief is founded on what the Scriptures actually teach that means. I repeatedly provided you Scriptures to review where Lord Jesus teaches us the finality and justice of his judgment on the wicked. And that is why I believe that God's Judgement is final, not because of man's tradition.

Along with Lord Jesus' teaching about the finality of judgment, the Scriptures then show us that Lord Jesus will judge all those who do not believe in him and do wickedly to a final judgment called the Second Death into the Lake of Fire. And this judgment is for ages and ages - perpetual with no end. I do not learn from the Scriptures that the Second Death is temporary.

Considering the 30,000+ denominations of Christianity, I don't feel worthy enough to believe in my own feelings and reasonings to guide what I will believe or not believe about God - how I think His love and justice should work. God's ways are not my ways. The Scriptures make very clear God's intentions, and God defines for us His love and righteousness, and His justice.

If I care about my eternal destiny, then I can do nothing but turn to the NT to find out God's plan of salvation. If God somehow does re-invite the wicked to salvation after they refused God and were judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire, then that should be found in His Word. But vengeance does belong to God, and although he desires all to be saved, the Scriptures continually warn us that only those who believe, and do what is right, will be saved. From what I gather from God's Word, only a remnant of humanity will actually be saved. Lord Jesus defined that remnant as "few" out of the mass of humanity. Sad but true.
What I want to ask you can Yahweh do anything that is not a loving act? I do not believe he can , so how is creating humans that you know you are going to torture forever a loving act . Also why do assume that aionios means eternal in anything other than the eternal God ? We assume that aionios is eternal when talking about a place of punishment but what part of Yahweh’s character does it violate if his punishment is to repentance? Why does Yahweh not get what he desires, is he not powerful enough to do it? What tradition teaches is that Yahweh made a world that he wanted to have fellowship with all of his creation but satan came in and messed it up and now he is trying to save a small fraction of it. Why would Yahweh create a world he either won’t or can’t save? I really have trouble with the idea that satan is more powerful than God . Romans 5:15-20 seems to say that Gods grace is more powerful than sin , why do we teach the opposite? Is the judgement eternal yes but the judgement is not the same as the punishment. The judgement is did you follow Jesus while in the mortal body or not , if yes you are rewarded with heaven citizenship and adoption into Gods kingdom where we will rule and rein with Jesus. If no the judgement is eternal we get one chance while in our mortal body to accept Jesus or live to self. Once you die that judgement can never be reversed but the punishment is to repentance ( this is the heart of Yahweh who wants no one to parish) This goes straight to the heart and character of Yahweh he says we are to win over our enemy with love why would he ask us to do something he won’t do himself . How does eternal torture bring glory to Yahweh, that’s easy for him he has the power to do it , but to win all enemies over by love and in the end 1Cor 15 God will be all in all . Those who reject him as subjects of his kingdom those who followed him as partakers of that kingdom. Why do you think Jesus asked Peter who do kings collect taxes from their kids or the subjects of his kingdom. We are Gods family the others subjects of his kingdom.
 
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You only think it’s out of context because you are from the camp that believe aionios is eternal, I do not , I believe, what most Christians believers for the first 500 years of the church believe that aionios is best translated to of the age . If that’s correct and I believe it is then hell is not eternal and all the verses that you explain away the obvious meaning are not out of context at all they show how Yahweh is doing the Apokatastasis.
The problem with what you "believe" about "aionios" is it is an adjective. Age is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun. "Aionios" cannot be translated as "of the age" which requires the genitive case. Adjectives don't take the genitive case.
 
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