the wrath of God

Jeff Saunders said:

Why does Yahweh ask us to love our enemy and to pray for those who persecute you? Because love covers a multitude of sins. It’s a much greater victory to win over your enemy and in the end make them a friend. This is Yahwehs heart and this is what he asked us to do also. So ask yourself which brings more glory to Yahweh sweeping all those who were against him into a eternal torture chamber ( that he must sustain for all eternity) or to pursue his enemy and win them over with his love and then all enemies will be conquered by love and will serve him for all the ages. Now tell me which is more in the character of Yahweh the loving Father who says “it’s Gods will that none parish but all come to repentance “

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ICONO'CLAST said:

It is sad indeed to find so many professing Christians who appear to regard the wrath of God as something for which they need to make an apology, or who at least wish there were no such thing. While some who would not go so far as to openly admit that they consider it a blemish on the Divine character, yet they are far from regarding it with delight; they like not to think about it, and they rarely hear it mentioned without a secret resentment rising up in their hearts against it. Even with those who are more sober in their judgment, not a few seem to imagine that there is a severity about the Divine wrath that makes it too terrifying to form a theme for profitable contemplation. Others harbor the delusion that God’s wrath is not consistent with his goodness, and so seek to banish it from their thoughts.

Yes, many there are who turn away from a vision of God’s wrath as though they were called to look upon some blotch in the Divine character or some blot upon the Divine government. But what saith the Scriptures? As we turn to them we find that God has made no attempt to conceal the facts concerning His wrath. He is not ashamed to make it known that vengeance and fury belong unto Him. His own challenge is:

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Der Alte said:

#1 "when scripture says every knee will bow and every tongue confess ( Greek is happy and joyfully confess) it’s not a forceful act," Please show me where any verse says, "every knee will bow"(Greek is happy and joyfully?) And do NOT quote the outdated Strong's to me.
When Jesus makes all His enemies His footstool, their knees will be bowing but it will certainly not be "joyfully and happily." It must be very important it is repeated 7 times. Psa_110:1, Mat_22:44, Mar_12:36, Luk_20:43,Act_2:35,Heb_1:13, Heb_10:13
When the O.T. figure of Jesus made his enemies his footstool was it happily and joyfully? Did they become obedient members of his army? Joshua 10:5-26
#2 I don't know what you are talking about.

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Confused-by-christianity said:

i don't think god is that wrathful, but i do think that some authors of the bible believed he was wrathfu

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Jeff Saunders said:

NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon - confess-Greek exomologeo - to acknowledge openly and joyfully. The word bow Greek kampto -to bow down as in reverence. It doesn’t sound like a forceful thing but by the definitions of the words it’s a voluntary act not forced act.

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keras said:

The cup of wrath : Psalms 75:8, Revelation 14:17-20

Jeremiah 25:15-29 All the kingdoms on the face of the earth must receive from the Hand of the Lord, the cup of the wine of His wrath, all the nations must drink of it. The Lord of Hosts: God of Israel has spoken! – Drink this and get drunk, be sick, fall down never to rise again, because of the sword I am sending among you. I shall first punish the city that bears My Name, do you think that you can be exempt? No, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.
This great testing will come ‘against all the inhabitants of the earth’. No one will be ‘raptured ‘ out of it. The area that will bear the brunt of this punishment is the Middle East, but the whole world will be affected. Jer. 9:10-11, Ezekiel 20:47-48, Obadiah 16

Jeremiah 25:30-32 The Lord will thunder from on high and roar mightily against His Land. This great noise reaches around the world. He will bring judgement to all mankind and the wicked shall die. Disaster will spread from nation to nation, a mighty tempest will blow up from the far corners of the earth. 2 Peter 3:7 & 10

‘Thunder from on high’, heard around the world, ‘a mighty tempest spreads from country to country’. This gives the clue as to what it is that causes this terrible disaster. A CME sunstrike will affect each area in succession as the earth rotates to face the sun. Joel 2:2 describes how it all happens: Like the dawn it spreads across the mountains, then Joel uses the metaphor of a vast army to give the impression of a huge mass. Joel 2:3 says exactly what does happen; Before them, a fire devours, behind them is a blazing flame, in front the land is a garden, behind is a desolate waste, nothing survives their passing. Temperatures of 175c = 350f will kill millions and the highly charged cosmic particles will destroy most of our modern infrastructure and all life. Hosea 4:3, Jeremiah 4:23-29

Jeremiah 25:33 Those whom the Lord has slain on that Day will lay scattered from one end of the world to the other, they will not be mourned or buried, they will be as dung spread over the ground. Jeremiah 9:21-22, Isaiah 66:24, Isaiah 34:2-3

Jeremiah 25:34-38 Wail and mourn, you shepherds of the flock, you leaders – for your time to be slaughtered has come, you will fall and be smashed like pottery. You cannot escape and the Lord will destroy your pastures and homes. The Land will become a waste because of this judgement of His fierce anger. Zephaniah 1:14-18

This is a terrible indictment against those who preach false teaching and who deny Bible truths. Isaiah 3:13-15, James 3:1



The Land of Greater Israel will be uninhabited and desolate after this Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A Jewish remnant will remain in Jerusalem. Isaiah 24:1-4
Then the Lord promises rain and regeneration ‘in a very short time’ Isaiah 29:17, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 36:8.......as a garden land.

His Christian people will gather and settle into all of the Land that He promised to their forefathers, literal and Spiritual. Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 34:11-16
The new Land of Beulah. Isaiah 62:2b-5

They will live there in peace and security, fulfilling His plan for them to be a nation that shows the rest of the world how we were intended to live. Isaiah 43:10

Later, at the glorious Return of Jesus, it is them who say “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord”!
Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged. logostelos.info

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Jeff Saunders said:

NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon - confess-Greek exomologeo - to acknowledge openly and joyfully. The word bow Greek kampto -to bow down as in reverence. It doesn’t sound like a forceful thing but by the definitions of the words it’s a voluntary act not forced act.

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Der Alte said:

Only if you ignore my comments. Want to know what is meant by "make your enemies your footstool" means? Which OBTW is repeated seven times. The OT figure of Yehoshua tells us in Joshua 10:5-26.

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FineLinen said:

This is precisely what is transpiring, as all creation in every dimension of the heavens, earth & underworld, worships our glorious Lord!

Every being in worship.

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setst777 said:

Read in context:

Jeff, I hope you can see by now that you are picking and choosing the Scriptures that agree with you outside of their context, and you are ignoring the rest. As well, you abuse grammar to make it appear that it agrees with your position, when in reality, you throw out all credible evidence and then supply your own meaning without any supporting evidence. I say this to you with love in my heart for you, and warn you to not ignore and abuse God's Word; rather, humbly accept what God reveals to us in context..

What I include in this post is a reply to the same bias you have repeatedly used throughout this discussion with me and others.

God is good and is forgiving, but God is also righteous to judge the wicked; and so, we are to leave vengeance to God, for he will repay.

Romans 12:18-22 (WEB)
18 If it is possible, as much as it is up to you, be at peace with all men. 19 Don’t seek revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God’s wrath. For it is written, “Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord.” [Deuteronomy 32:35] 20 Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in doing so, you will heap coals of fire on his head.” [Proverbs 25:21-22] 21 Don’t be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

God's judgments are just and fair

Ezekiel 18:25-29 (WEB) 25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is unjust.’ Hear now, house of Israel: Is my way not just? Aren’t your ways unjust? 26 When the righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies therein; in his iniquity that he has done he shall die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is lawful and right, he will save his soul alive. 28 Because he considers, and turns away from all his transgressions that he has committed, he shall surely live. He shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ House of Israel, aren’t my ways fair? Aren’t your ways unfair?

God is righteous to repay the penalty of eternal destruction to the wicked.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will pay the penalty: eternal [aiōnion] destruction from the face of the Lord

Out of 45 occurrences in the NT for the Greek word aiōnion (adjective, accusative masculine) used, in all 45 occurrences, “aiōnion” is defined as “everlasting” or “eternal.” That is 100% of the time, aiōnion means “everlasting” or “eternal.”

The term: “destruction from the face of the Lord,” means to be cut off from His presence – to be thrown outside.

Revelation 22:12-17 (WEB) 12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

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Jeff Saunders said:

It will be glorious, I still can’t understand why people still believe satan is more powerful than Yahweh.

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Jeff Saunders said:

You only think it’s out of context because you are from the camp that believe aionios is eternal, I do not , I believe, what most Christians believers for the first 500 years of the church believe that aionios is best translated to of the age . If that’s correct and I believe it is then hell is not eternal and all the verses that you explain away the obvious meaning are not out of context at all they show how Yahweh is doing the Apokatastasis.

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Jeff Saunders said:

Why does Yahweh ask us to love our enemy and to pray for those who persecute you? Because love covers a multitude of sins. It’s a much greater victory to win over your enemy and in the end make them a friend. This is Yahwehs heart and this is what he asked us to do also. So ask yourself which brings more glory to Yahweh sweeping all those who were against him into a eternal torture chamber ( that he must sustain for all eternity) or to pursue his enemy and win them over with his love and then all enemies will be conquered by love and will serve him for all the ages. Now tell me which is more in the character of Yahweh the loving Father who says “it’s Gods will that none parish but all come to repentance “

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Jeff Saunders said:

Why does Yahweh ask us to love our enemy and to pray for those who persecute you? Because love covers a multitude of sins. It’s a much greater victory to win over your enemy and in the end make them a friend. This is Yahwehs heart and this is what he asked us to do also. So ask yourself which brings more glory to Yahweh sweeping all those who were against him into a eternal torture chamber ( that he must sustain for all eternity) or to pursue his enemy and win them over with his love and then all enemies will be conquered by love and will serve him for all the ages. Now tell me which is more in the character of Yahweh the loving Father who says “it’s Gods will that none parish but all come to repentance “

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setst777 said:

I do not trust anything you say without evidence. You have proven yourself unreliable and deceptive in our discussion.

The word "aionios" is used 71 times in the NT. And, within its context of each time it is used, only twice could "aionios" be translated as "long ages," but also as "eternal" as follows:

Romans 16:25 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages [ainion] past

Titus 1:2 (NIV) in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning [ainion] of time

Notice, in each of these two Passages, "eternal" would be equal to or the more accurate translation.
In fact, in Titus 1:2, "beginning" is not an accurate translation for "ainion." "Beginning" in Greek is: "arch'e"

For instance, here is how Romans 16:25 and Titus 1:2 would look with eternal instead of long ages or beginning....

In Romans 16:25 "they mystery is hidden from eternity [ainion]"
In Titus 1:2 "promised before time eternal [ainion]"

In all the other 68 instances that ainion is used, only "eternity" or "everlasting" fits the context as can be plainly seen by reviewing each Passage that ainion is used. "Ages" or "long ages" would not work in 69 of the 71 Passages where ainion is found no matter how much you want to deny it.

Review for yourself:

TABLE OF ALL NEW TESTAMENT USAGES OF ainion, ETERNAL​ Address​ Verse​ Reference​ Matthew 18:8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. Fire Matthew 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” Life Matthew 19:29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. Life Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; Life Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Life Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— Sin Mark 10:17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” Life Mark 10:30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. Life Luke 10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” Life Luke 16:9 “And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings. Dwellings Luke 18:18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” Life Luke 18:30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.” Life John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. Life John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Life John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Life John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” Life John 4:36 “Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. Life John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Life John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; Life John 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” Life John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” Life John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. Life John 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. Life John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. Life John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. Life John 12:25 “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. Life John 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.” Life John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. Life John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. Life Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. Life Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Life Romans 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; Life Romans 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Life Romans 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. Life Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Life Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, Long ages Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; God 2 Cor 4:17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, Glory 2 Cor. 4:18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. Eternal 2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Eternal Galatians 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Life 2 Thess. 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, Destruction 2 Thess. 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, Comfort 1 Timothy 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. Life 1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. Life 1 Timothy 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. Dominion 2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, Eternity 2 Timothy 2:10 For this reason, I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. Glory Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, Life, Long ages Titus 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Life Phm 15 For perhaps he was for this reason separated from you for a while, that you would have him back forever, Forever Hebrews 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, Salvation Hebrews 6:2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. Judgment Hebrews 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Redemption Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Spirit Hebrews 9:15 For this reason, He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Inheritance Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, Covenant 1 Peter 5:10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. Glory 2 Peter 1:11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. Kingdom 1 John 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— Life 1 John 2:25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. Life 1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Life 1 John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Life 1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. Life 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Life Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Fire Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. Life Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; Gospel

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atpollard said:

... and yet God says what God says in His Hole Scripture about: Wrath and Judgement and Torment and Eternal. So as Romans 9 asks rhetorically, "who am I to play the fool and answer back to God, telling Him what He may or may not do with His creation"?
God has told us what He will do, we are free to believe him or not. To quote Mr. T: "Pitty the Fool that chooses to doubt God".

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Der Alte said:

Only if you ignore my comments. Want to know what is meant by "make your enemies your footstool" means? Which OBTW is repeated seven times. The OT figure of Yehoshua tells us in Joshua 10:5-26.

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Jeff Saunders said:

Let me ask you a question why was aionios/ olam , for the first 500 years of the church , not used as eternal unless it was described God ? The idea that hell is eternal come in from pagan religion to control people not just in this life but in the next also. If eternal was the intent the Greek word aidios which does have the meaning of eternal. I believe the idea of most people going to hell for eternity is straight from satan himself to make himself look more powerful than God , But I know that is not true Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for in the end God 100% satan 0% , I even believe that God is so loving and powerful that in the end even satan will bow his knee and will confess that Jesus is Lord then God will be all in all.

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Jeff Saunders said:

What does Joshua have to do with making Gods enemies his footstool?

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