GOD'S DIETARY LAWS AND BAT SOUP STEW - COVID 19

Leaf473 · Nov 30, 2022

FredVB said:
So, do you just want to miss that no one can be clean through their own observance in the way we are made clean coming to Christ, which I repeatedly say? My cell phone and most of those of others are not water proof and will be ruined with being submerged under water. Who does that? We don't eat off of our phones. So, what for, if, as I have said, we do not make ourselves clean or remain clean that way, and any routines can't help for that. So it is useless to try to peg me as legalistic, I don't claim to be. But what changes I do imperfectly sound like more than you do, not trying for betterment in any way with things shown in the old testament of God's word.

I agree that no one can be clean through their own observance in the way we are made clean coming to Christ.

I am interested in talking about this, from the OP:

LoveGodsWord said:
The question should also be considered can something that is clean yesterday be unclean today?

Leviticus 11
Anything they fall on when they are dead shall be unclean; whether it is any vessel of wood, or clothing, or skin, or sack, whatever vessel it is, with which any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the evening. Then it will be clean.

It sounds like that according to Leviticus, things with which work is done can become unclean.

I think we agree that, in opposition to the OP,
there has been a change in the law about what is clean and unclean.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you.

FredVB · Dec 2, 2022

Leaf473 said:
I agree that no one can be clean through their own observance in the way we are made clean coming to Christ.

I am interested in talking about this, from the OP:

Leviticus 11
Anything they fall on when they are dead shall be unclean; whether it is any vessel of wood, or clothing, or skin, or sack, whatever vessel it is, with which any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the evening. Then it will be clean.

It sounds like that according to Leviticus, things with which work is done can become unclean.

I think we agree that, in opposition to the OP,
there has been a change in the law about what is clean and unclean.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you.

I would think we agree on many things, but it is not agreement right here. I don't think things changed in what was needed. The passage shown is about vessels. (My phone is not a vessel, not that I ever have dead things fall on it.) What about us? Christ is the way to be made clean in the needed way, for us, And, for anyone ever. The outward washing ritual, although helpful to keep unrecognized pathogens and other microbes from spreading, was a sign, or as said in some scripture passages, a shadow, that was showing there was need to be made clean in the right way to be before God. In the old covenant ritual cleanliness was acceptable With essential faith, being made clean was a possibility provided by God, those with that were clean through Christ. So this has not change. In just the same way Christ was for all time the effective priesthood and the effective sacrifice for atonement, and all sacrifices of thanksgiving and a grateful heart are through Christ recognized. While commandments are fulfilled by Christ, he being the only one to do it all, they show things of the will of God and as we actually turn from sin we will not continue to go contrary to commandments, the fulfillment of them spares all of us who are believers the judgment for where we failed, as Christ bore that, the only one who could and be raised up again.

Leaf473 · Dec 2, 2022

FredVB said:
I would think we agree on many things, but it is not agreement right here. I don't think things changed in what was needed. The passage shown is about vessels. (My phone is not a vessel, not that I ever have dead things fall on it.) What about us? Christ is the way to be made clean in the needed way, for us, And, for anyone ever. The outward washing ritual, although helpful to keep unrecognized pathogens and other microbes from spreading, was a sign, or as said in some scripture passages, a shadow, that was showing there was need to be made clean in the right way to be before God. In the old covenant ritual cleanliness was acceptable With essential faith, being made clean was a possibility provided by God, those with that were clean through Christ. So this has not change. In just the same way Christ was for all time the effective priesthood and the effective sacrifice for atonement, and all sacrifices of thanksgiving and a grateful heart are through Christ recognized. While commandments are fulfilled by Christ, he being the only one to do it all, they show things of the will of God and as we actually turn from sin we will not continue to go contrary to commandments, the fulfillment of them spares all of us who are believers the judgment for where we failed, as Christ bore that, the only one who could and be raised up again.

I think the word for vessel means pretty much any object.

Strong's Hebrew: 3627. כְּלִי (keli) -- an article, utensil, vessel

biblehub.com

But are you saying we don't need to do ritual washings of anything or anyone ever?

FredVB · Dec 4, 2022

Leaf473 said:
I think the word for vessel means pretty much any object.

Strong's Hebrew: 3627. כְּלִי (keli) -- an article, utensil, vessel

biblehub.com

But are you saying we don't need to do ritual washings of anything or anyone ever?

I read the passage with its context, and with listed items it gives, it can't mean every and all objects. The way Levitical law is so thorough, you know who and what to not have sex with ahead of even thinking of what is possible. You or others might wonder why the law is so thorough. The items needing to be cleaned, clothing materials and vessels that are earthen, wood, skin, or sack, would not be the only items the people then had. What about rings and jewelry? Not in the list? Not the same application. Blades? Not in the list? Not the same application.

We need washing to clean away microbes adequately, it's something we can know now, before the new dark ages, but way to be effectively clean before God who we should want to come to is through Christ, and it has always been only through Christ. The ritual cleansing of the old covenant was only appropriate with faith that it was meant to be with, such that things like that, and the system of priests and Levites (which remember was in place of firstborn that would have been in their position, instead of it being inherited roles), and the sacrifices, were not effective in themselves, but were the 'shadows' for effective faith to be covered in Christ. Commandments from God are not eliminated with this. So no real change but for what is revealed.

Leaf473 · Dec 4, 2022

FredVB said:
I read the passage with its context, and with listed items it gives, it can't mean every and all objects. The way Levitical law is so thorough, you know who and what to not have sex with ahead of even thinking of what is possible. You or others might wonder why the law is so thorough. The items needing to be cleaned, clothing materials and vessels that are earthen, wood, skin, or sack, would not be the only items the people then had. What about rings and jewelry? Not in the list? Not the same application. Blades? Not in the list? Not the same application.

We need washing to clean away microbes adequately, it's something we can know now, before the new dark ages, but way to be effectively clean before God who we should want to come to is through Christ, and it has always been only through Christ. The ritual cleansing of the old covenant was only appropriate with faith that it was meant to be with, such that things like that, and the system of priests and Levites (which remember was in place of firstborn that would have been in their position, instead of it being inherited roles), and the sacrifices, were not effective in themselves, but were the 'shadows' for effective faith to be covered in Christ. Commandments from God are not eliminated with this. So no real change but for what is revealed.

So... are you saying we don't need to do ritual washings of anything or anyone ever?

Peace be with you

FredVB · Dec 6, 2022

Leaf473 said:
So... are you saying we don't need to do ritual washings of anything or anyone ever?

Peace be with you

So, it seems I am answering the same thing. It is Christ only that is effective. The ritual ways to be clean ritually to come to God were what God deemed necessary for needed faith before it was revealed after Christ came, but from the foundation it is Christ's effectiveness. This does not mean there is no value to washing for cleaning needs, apart from being right to come before God.

These 'shadows' with the priesthood, the system for sacrificing, and ritual ways to be made clean God had left in place for needed faith. How were commandments from God for how to live 'shadows'?

Leaf473 · Dec 6, 2022

FredVB said:
So, it seems I am answering the same thing. It is Christ only that is effective. The ritual ways to be clean ritually to come to God were what God deemed necessary for needed faith before it was revealed after Christ came, but from the foundation it is Christ's effectiveness. This does not mean there is no value to washing for cleaning needs, apart from being right to come before God.

These 'shadows' with the priesthood, the system for sacrificing, and ritual ways to be made clean God had left in place for needed faith. How were commandments from God for how to live 'shadows'?

Well, Fred my man, what I'm hearing is that No, we don't need to perform ritual washings of things or people anymore. (Please correct me if I'm not understanding what you're saying.)

So it sounds like we agree that there has been a change in the way we keep the laws about what is clean and unclean. I think that disagrees with what the OP was saying.

Nice talking to you, and I hope we'll meet up again soon!

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Leaf473 · Dec 6, 2022

FredVB said:
How were commandments from God for how to live 'shadows'?

About this part here,
The scriptures refer to some or all of the law as shadows, or casting a shadow.

The writer probably had in mind Plato's allegory of the cave. They cast a shadow because there is a light source behind them, which could be Christ. Or Christ could be the sunlight outdoors.

Peace be with you

FredVB · Dec 9, 2022

FredVB said:
So, it seems I am answering the same thing. It is Christ only that is effective. The ritual ways to be clean ritually to come to God were what God deemed necessary for needed faith before it was revealed after Christ came, but from the foundation it is Christ's effectiveness. This does not mean there is no value to washing for cleaning needs, apart from being right to come before God.

These 'shadows' with the priesthood, the system for sacrificing, and ritual ways to be made clean God had left in place for needed faith. How were commandments from God for how to live 'shadows'?

Leaf473 said:
Well, Fred my man, what I'm hearing is that No, we don't need to perform ritual washings of things or people anymore. (Please correct me if I'm not understanding what you're saying.)

So it sounds like we agree that there has been a change in the way we keep the laws about what is clean and unclean. I think that disagrees with what the OP was saying.

Nice talking to you, and I hope we'll meet up again soon!

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

But, I was not agreeing to there being a change of what is effective. It was always that Christ was effective, applied to where there is needed faith. Ritual washing helped with that, while washing does function to remove microbes with possible pathogens among them.

Leaf473 said:
About this part here,
The scriptures refer to some or all of the law as shadows, or casting a shadow.

The writer probably had in mind Plato's allegory of the cave. They cast a shadow because there is a light source behind them, which could be Christ. Or Christ could be the sunlight outdoors.

Peace be with you

I know of Colossians 2:17, and Hebrews 8:5 and Hebrews 10:1, these speak to the priesthood and sacrifices, and ceremonies. Are you thinking of any other passage mentioning shadows, revealing to us that commandments are not showing us what things to do? I don't know any passage showing that.

Leaf473 · Dec 10, 2022

FredVB said:
But, I was not agreeing to there being a change of what is effective. It was always that Christ was effective, applied to where there is needed faith. Ritual washing helped with that, while washing does function to remove microbes with possible pathogens among them.

Well... possibly no change in what is effective, but possibly a change in what we are required to do. I think that differs from the OP.

Our brother @LoveGodsWord is no longer active here on CF, but I've interacted with him a lot over the past few years. My impression is that he believed there was no change in what we are required to do by the laws about what is clean and unclean.

My impression of the thrust of the OP is that there are things that are unclean, and the actions prescribed by the law related to those things must be taken, following the law to the letter. Failure to follow the law to the letter about what is unclean can result in things like the COVID pandemic.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Leaf473 · Dec 10, 2022

FredVB said:
I know of Colossians 2:17, and Hebrews 8:5 and Hebrews 10:1, these speak to the priesthood and sacrifices, and ceremonies. Are you thinking of any other passage mentioning shadows, revealing to us that commandments are not showing us what things to do? I don't know any passage showing that.

Well, in the allegory of the cave, anything can cast a shadow. I assume that things like animal sacrifices are considered commandments because of Leviticus 27
These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.

Peace be with you

FredVB · Dec 12, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Well, in the allegory of the cave, anything can cast a shadow. I assume that things like animal sacrifices are considered commandments because of Leviticus 27
These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.

Peace be with you

Yes, commandments for sacrifice, which is what Jesus Christ, the only effective sacrifice for atonement, fulfilled, and with that, there is no need for any animal to die for us. It is Christ who is called the Lamb of God. So with him we have obedience to those commandments.

Leaf473 said:
Well... possibly no change in what is effective, but possibly a change in what we are required to do. I think that differs from the OP.

Our brother @LoveGodsWord is no longer active here on CF, but I've interacted with him a lot over the past few years. My impression is that he believed there was no change in what we are required to do by the laws about what is clean and unclean.

My impression of the thrust of the OP is that there are things that are unclean, and the actions prescribed by the law related to those things must be taken, following the law to the letter. Failure to follow the law to the letter about what is unclean can result in things like the COVID pandemic.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

My belief relates to concentrated groups of people and concentrated animals in locations of animal agriculture makes epidemics, and pandemics, much more likely, it is with this that pathogens spread.

Leaf473 · Dec 12, 2022

FredVB said:
Yes, commandments for sacrifice, which is what Jesus Christ, the only effective sacrifice for atonement, fulfilled, and with that, there is no need for any animal to die for us. It is Christ who is called the Lamb of God. So with him we have obedience to those commandments.

My belief relates to concentrated groups of people and concentrated animals in locations of animal agriculture makes epidemics, and pandemics, much more likely, it is with this that pathogens spread.

Yes, commandments can be shadows. Looks like we agree there.

And I also agree that it's not good for humans to live in densely populated areas.

God told humans to fill the earth, yet after the flood the they didn't want to be scattered.

They said, “Come, let’s build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top reaches to the sky, and let’s make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad on the surface of the whole earth.”
Genesis 11

And then
So the Lord scattered them abroad from there on the surface of all the earth. They stopped building the city.

So yes, epidemics and pandemics like covid need concentrations of humans / animals, otherwise they just fizzle out in the local village.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

FredVB · Dec 14, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Yes, commandments can be shadows. Looks like we agree there.

And I also agree that it's not good for humans to live in densely populated areas.

God told humans to fill the earth, yet after the flood the they didn't want to be scattered.

They said, “Come, let’s build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top reaches to the sky, and let’s make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad on the surface of the whole earth.”
Genesis 11

And then
So the Lord scattered them abroad from there on the surface of all the earth. They stopped building the city.

So yes, epidemics and pandemics like covid need concentrations of humans / animals, otherwise they just fizzle out in the local village.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, let's see. I say those things about the priesthood, the system of sacrifices, things for being ritually clean, in the old covenant, which did not lose validity, are shadows for Christ being the Priest, the effective Sacrifice, and the Way for us to be clean in the needed way before God. We agree to those things. And I ask, how are commandments that God spoke aloud and were heard, and that were written on tablets of stone, shadows? We should still live according those. If we kill others it is still just as wrong, and so on. Christ bearing the justice for where we fail doesn't mean we can do any of those things we shouldn't according to those.

What God stopped at Babel, which did not continue there, would have had humanity all come to things they are doing with destructive exploitation of the world that civilization does now, much faster, contrary to the way we should live in this world.

Leaf473 · Dec 14, 2022

FredVB said:
Well, let's see. I say those things about the priesthood, the system of sacrifices, things for being ritually clean, in the old covenant, which did not lose validity, are shadows for Christ being the Priest, the effective Sacrifice, and the Way for us to be clean in the needed way before God. We agree to those things. And I ask, how are commandments that God spoke aloud and were heard, and that were written on tablets of stone, shadows? We should still live according those. If we kill others it is still just as wrong, and so on. Christ bearing the justice for where we fail doesn't mean we can do any of those things we shouldn't according to those.

What God stopped at Babel, which did not continue there, would have had humanity all come to things they are doing with destructive exploitation of the world that civilization does now, much faster, contrary to the way we should live in this world.

Well, you had asked earlier,

FredVB said:
How were commandments from God for how to live 'shadows'?

Then,

FredVB said:
And I ask, how are commandments that God spoke aloud and were heard, and that were written on tablets of stone, shadows?

This adds additional parameters, I believe.

Heard by all Israel, or just Moses?

Now, God writing with his finger, that's specific to the Ten commandments. So the thinking would be, if God wrote a commandment with his finger, then it can't be a shadow. But... Is there a scripture that says this? I can't think of one.

When God wants to emphasize something, he says it with his mouth:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
Isaiah 1 KJV

Some interesting information on this subject over here:

Does the "finger of God" elevate?

Ex 31:18 and De 9:10 both use the expression/phrase "finger of God" to describe the manner in which the 10 commandments are inscribed. Since God is spirit, not body this is either an anthropomorphic reference or a manifestation in physical form of God for this event. Whatever the case, does...

www.christianforums.com

Peace be with you

FredVB · Dec 16, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Well, you had asked earlier,

Then,

This adds additional parameters, I believe.

Heard by all Israel, or just Moses?

Now, God writing with his finger, that's specific to the Ten commandments. So the thinking would be, if God wrote a commandment with his finger, then it can't be a shadow. But... Is there a scripture that says this? I can't think of one.

When God wants to emphasize something, he says it with his mouth:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
Isaiah 1 KJV

Some interesting information on this subject over here:

Does the "finger of God" elevate?

Ex 31:18 and De 9:10 both use the expression/phrase "finger of God" to describe the manner in which the 10 commandments are inscribed. Since God is spirit, not body this is either an anthropomorphic reference or a manifestation in physical form of God for this event. Whatever the case, does...

www.christianforums.com

Peace be with you

Well, what I said recognizes parameters, not just adding them. Scripture passages show, right at the start of Exodus 20, God spoke all these words. In passages preceding that, it is shown that people of Israel had prepared themselves and gathered together before the mountain to hear God themselves. Then after God spoke the commandments, at Exodus 20:18-19, All the people perceived the thunderings, the lightnings, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking. When the people saw it, they trembled, and stayed at a distance. They said to Moses, “Speak with us yourself, and we will listen; but don’t let God speak with us."

I see significance in that Jews don't call these commandments now.

After this God wrote these commandments on stone. When those were broken, God wrote them again on tablets of stone. Those three times we had commandments directly from God.

So no I can't see why they are a shadow of anything. Christ obeyed those things, never sinning, and they are for us, to turn from sin.

Leaf473 · Dec 17, 2022

FredVB said:
Well, what I said recognizes parameters, not just adding them. Scripture passages show, right at the start of Exodus 20, God spoke all these words. In passages preceding that, it is shown that people of Israel had prepared themselves and gathered together before the mountain to hear God themselves. Then after God spoke the commandments, at Exodus 20:18-19, All the people perceived the thunderings, the lightnings, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking. When the people saw it, they trembled, and stayed at a distance. They said to Moses, “Speak with us yourself, and we will listen; but don’t let God speak with us."

I see significance in that Jews don't call these commandments now.

After this God wrote these commandments on stone. When those were broken, God wrote them again on tablets of stone. Those three times we had commandments directly from God.

So no I can't see why they are a shadow of anything. Christ obeyed those things, never sinning, and they are for us, to turn from sin.

I believe you added additional parameters to your earlier question.

So, if the question is:
Can a Commandment that God wrote with his finger be a shadow?

My answer is: Yes, it's possible.

Now, if there's a scripture passage that says that a Commandment that God wrote with his finger cannot be a shadow, then I'm interested in hearing that.

Peace be with you

FredVB · Dec 18, 2022

Leaf473 said:
I believe you added additional parameters to your earlier question.

So, if the question is:
Can a Commandment that God wrote with his finger be a shadow?

My answer is: Yes, it's possible.

Now, if there's a scripture passage that says that a Commandment that God wrote with his finger cannot be a shadow, then I'm interested in hearing that.

Peace be with you

Okay, added, but not adding to what scriptures already say. I did not actually ever mention "finger", what is relevant is that God spoke those commandments, in the hearing of all the people there, then wrote those same commandments on tablets of stone, and then again wrote them on a second set of tablets of stone. So... they seem to be quite important. Could they be shadows for something else? No, I don't have passages showing they can't be. But alleging that they would be, or even could be, should bear the burden of proof from Bible passages for that. I already dealt with what was definitely shown to be shadows, those of what we definitely have through Christ, shown with Bible passages.

Leaf473 · Dec 18, 2022

FredVB said:
Okay, added, but not adding to what scriptures already say. I did not actually ever mention "finger", what is relevant is that God spoke those commandments, in the hearing of all the people there, then wrote those same commandments on tablets of stone, and then again wrote them on a second set of tablets of stone. So... they seem to be quite important. Could they be shadows for something else? No, I don't have passages showing they can't be. But alleging that they would be, or even could be, should bear the burden of proof from Bible passages for that. I already dealt with what was definitely shown to be shadows, those of what we definitely have through Christ, shown with Bible passages.

That's true, that you didn't mention writing with his finger. But you did talk about writing on tablets of stone, which I believe refers to essentially the same events.

Hebrews 10:1 is for me a key issue:
The law, having a shadow of the good things to come...
Σκιὰν γὰρ ἔχων ὁ νόμος τῶν μελλόντων ἀγαθῶν

That can either be understood to mean that the entire law has a shadow, or that specific laws within the law cast shadows.

But again, if I understand the allegory of the cave correctly, anything can cast a shadow. The goal is to go outside and see the bright sunlight.

Peace be with you

Clare73 · Dec 18, 2022

FredVB said:
Well, what I said recognizes parameters, not just adding them. Scripture passages show, right at the start of Exodus 20, God spoke all these words. In passages preceding that, it is shown that people of Israel had prepared themselves and gathered together before the mountain to hear God themselves. Then after God spoke the commandments, at Exodus 20:18-19, All the people perceived the thunderings, the lightnings, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking. When the people saw it, they trembled, and stayed at a distance. They said to Moses, “Speak with us yourself, and we will listen; but don’t let God speak with us."

I see significance in that Jews don't call these commandments now.
After this God wrote these commandments on stone. When those were broken, God wrote them again on tablets of stone. Those three times we had commandments directly from God.
So no I can't see why they are a shadow of anything. Christ obeyed those things, never sinning, and they are for us, to turn from sin.

The issue is:
those things were part of the Mosaic Covenant, which was temporarily added (Gal 3:19, Ro 5:20) to the Abrahamic Covenant,
where the Mosaic Covenant ended (Heb 8:13) with the New Covenant,
and the Mosaic Covenant's priesthood and laws, including the food laws, were abolished (Eph 2:15),
being replaced with the new order (Heb 9:10) of the New Covenant
with its New Covenant law (Heb 13:8-10), love of God and neighbor as self.

In the NT, the born again are under New Covenant law, they are not under the Old (Mosaic) Covenant law (Heb 13:8-10).
No one is under the Old (Mosaic) Covenant law, it has been abolished (Eph 2:15).

This is thoroughly addressed between posts #214 and #330, particularly in posts #214, #226, #235, #238, #330.

GOD'S DIETARY LAWS AND BAT SOUP STEW - COVID 19

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