Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

Lulav said:

If it's so 'obsolete' then why did James get on Paul for supposedly teaching not to keep the law? They had heard that was what he was doing. Not just him but Thousands of Messianic Jewish believers. None of them believed the Law given to Moses was obsolete.

Click to expand...

James and the leaders in Jerusalem did that in Acts 21:

Which Paul agrees to do - in order to make the very point they claim it will make.

Bob S said:

Please provide scripture because I don't believe James ever refuted what Paul wrote.

Click to expand...

did you read the text?

Clare73 said:

So you deny the NT in Heb 8:7-13?

Click to expand...

The book of Hebrews was written est. 30-50 years after the crucifixion. And yet it says 'there ARE' priests still offering the gifts according to the law.


Not the laws of GOD - those trying to keep them.
He is perfect and his laws are perfect .
King David, the one after God's own heart said:


Continuing with Hebrews

Nothing to deny there, just wondering which house does your covenant fall under?

You missed the last verse:

Cornelius8L said:

You missed the last verse:

Hebrews 8:13​

In that He says, “ A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.​

Click to expand...

Right, so since The book of Hebrews was written est. 30-50 years after the crucifixion, which would be 60- 90CE then when would it become obsolete?

How does a covenant grow old?

If it's going to vanish away, where will it go?

Lulav said:

Right, so since The book of Hebrews was written est. 30-50 years after the crucifixion, which would be 60- 90CE then when would it become obsolete?

How does a covenant grow old?

If it's going to vanish away, where will it go?

Click to expand...

I don’t think this was the first time Paul said this message when he wrote this letter. He could have preached many times before he wrote it. Anyway, the old covenant was obsolete when Jesus replaced it. Where it goes? When a child grows up to be an adult, where does the childhood memory goes? So then, is where the old covenant goes.

Has anyone ever wondered why Jesus asked to pray to avoid the sabbath (Matthew 24:20) if the sabbath journey (Acts 1:12) is not part of the law and every sabbath-breaking act can be excused in the notion of ‘mercy above sacrifice’ when our situations become like David’s (Matthew 12:3:7)? Isn’t Jesus just said the unnecessary?

So we need to have the mind of Christ to understand Christ. Jesus called Nathanael a true Israelite (John 1:47) not because he was born an Israelite as “not all who are descended from Israel are Israel (Romans 9:6),” but because he has no deceit. Then, what is the true Sabbath?

When God sends out the four dire judgments in Ezekiel 14:21-22 and Revelation 6:7-8, Daniel, Job, and Noah cannot save others but themselves (Ezekiel 14:20). They cannot work at night (John 9:4) but can only rest. When they rest with the bridegroom, no one will open the door for the five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:11-13). This True Sabbath day of the end time will have no one opening the door if we are not inside.

Lulav said:

I guess then the maker of Love didn't know what he was talking about nor what he taught his people.

Click to expand...

Why are you avoiding answering my questions? Why did God provide all mankind with the new covenant that is not like the old one?

BobRyan said:

Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 - saved by grace through faith... and all that - before the cross ever happened.

Because as Gal 1:6-9 points out -- there has always been only "one gospel" and that gospel was also preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 back in Genesis.

The New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34 is Old Testament.

Heb 10:4 points out that no forgiveness at all happened in the OT due to the blood of bulls and goats. They could not forgive even one single sin. All the forgiveness that happened then - was via the blood of Christ a God could see it - even though man could not.

Click to expand...

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

BobRyan said:

Because as Gal 1:6-9 points out -- there has always been only "one gospel" and that gospel was also preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 back in Genesis.

Click to expand...

Can you put that one gospel into words?

Cornelius8L said:

Has anyone ever wondered why Jesus asked to pray to avoid the sabbath (Matthew 24:20) if the sabbath journey (Acts 1:12) is not part of the law and every sabbath-breaking act can be excused in the notion of ‘mercy above sacrifice’ when our situations become like David’s (Matthew 12:3:7)? Isn’t Jesus just said the unnecessary?

So we need to have the mind of Christ to understand Christ. Jesus called Nathanael a true Israelite (John 1:47) not because he was born an Israelite as “not all who are descended from Israel are Israel (Romans 9:6),” but because he has no deceit. Then, what is the true Sabbath?

When God sends out the four dire judgments in Ezekiel 14:21-22 and Revelation 6:7-8, Daniel, Job, and Noah cannot save others but themselves (Ezekiel 14:20). They cannot work at night (John 9:4) but can only rest. When they rest with the bridegroom, no one will open the door for the five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:11-13). This True Sabbath day of the end time will have no one opening the door if we are not inside.

Click to expand...

Yes, back to the core of the thread topic... I've had that same question about why it matters if the flight is on the Sabbath if, as many people say, it's okay to carry your personal belongings and get in a car and drive considerable distance on the Sabbath.

Bob S said:

Why are you avoiding answering my questions? Why did God provide all mankind with the new covenant that is not like the old one?

Click to expand...

The difference is the way it is applied. Not outwardly but inwardly.

It has to do with being born again.

Cornelius8L said:

I don’t think this was the first time Paul said this message when he wrote this letter. He could have preached many times before he wrote it. Anyway, the old covenant was obsolete when Jesus replaced it. Where it goes? When a child grows up to be an adult, where does the childhood memory goes? So then, is where the old covenant goes.

Click to expand...

So you believe it was Paul who wrote Hebrews?

BobRyan said:

Well in the case of Heb 8:7-13
Your post included Heb 8:7-13 which is a direct quote of of the NEW Covenant in Jer 31:31-34. The New Covenant is Old Testament and Heb 8 reminds us that the New Covenant is "unchanged" verbatim the same in the NT.
It tells us that the "Law of God " known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart in the NEW Covenant.
Paul reminds us in Eph 6:1-2 --- that the LAW mentioned above - includes Ex 20:12 "honor your father and mother"
James 2 reminds us that it includes more than that from the Law of Moses.
BTW: Heb 8:13 does not use the term "Law of Moses" at all.

Click to expand...

Correct. . .it is the Old Mosaic Covenant that is obsolete.

BobRyan said:

7 For if that first covenant had been free of fault, no circumstances would have been sought for a second. 8 For in finding fault with the people, He says,
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.
Also note
"Love your neighbor as yourself' Lev 19:18 -- is "Law of Moses"
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 -- is "Law of Moses".

Click to expand...

Agreed. . .that is now the one rule (law) for the New Covenant, and which is the fulfillment of the law (Ro 13:9-10).

Lulav said:

8: 1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.​

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said,“See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.​

The book of Hebrews was written est. 30-50 years after the crucifixion. And yet it says 'there ARE' priests still offering the gifts according to the law.

A New Covenant​

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.​

8 Because finding fault with them,​

​

Not the laws of GOD - those trying to keep them.
He is perfect and his laws are perfect .
King David, the one after God's own heart said:

Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul:​

the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.​

8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart:​

the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.​

Continuing with Hebrews

He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when​

I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—​

9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.​

​

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”​

​

​

Nothing to deny there, just wondering which house does your covenant fall under?

Click to expand...

You challenge that the Old Covenant is obsolete in Heb 8:13?

Why do you challenge authoritative NT apostolic teaching?

Lulav said:

Right, so since The book of Hebrews was written est. 30-50 years after the crucifixion, which would be 60- 90CE then when would it become obsolete?

How does a covenant grow old?

Click to expand...

According to authoritative NT apostolic teaching, by Jer 31:31 speaking of a new covenant, the Mosaic Covenant is made the old covenant.

Lulav said:

If it's going to vanish away, where will it go?

Click to expand...

The same place that childhood goes. . .the same place that laws taken off the books go. . .etc.

Why do you challenge the NT revelation of Heb 8:13?

Lulav said:

The difference is the way it is applied. Not outwardly but inwardly.

It has to do with being born again.

Click to expand...

Actually Lulav, the old covenant was not about the Israelite's salvation, it was about how they were to live after being slaves in Egypt. It was their constitution so to speak. When God called Moses to tell him His plan for the flock found in Ex 19:5-6 God explained it like this:
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Salvation has always been by God's grace through faith. Man has never been able to pull himself up by his own boot straps.

The new covenant is all about salvation and how to live a life that is worthy of this gift. Paul explicitly told us it is not by keeping the old covenant law or by what we do. Your comparison of James discrediting Paul is completely false. James was comparing man's faith to his good DEEDS, not the works of the laws of the old covenant. In other words, we can tell a man's faith by how he treats his fellow man. Do we love others as Jesus loves us?? What we do for the least we do to and for Jesus. Paul preached that man cannot be saved by doing work of the law. Gal3 is a perfect chapter first explaining to the Galatians the folly of salvation by works of the law: 10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Paul goes on to tell us just the opposite of what you are trying to teach us.
17 The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

In verse 19 what does "until" mean to you?

Clare73 said:

You challenge that the Old Covenant is obsolete in Heb 8:13?

Why do you challenge authoritative NT apostolic teaching?

Click to expand...

Why do you keep making false accusations at me?

I said "Nothing to deny there, just wondering which house does your covenant fall under?"

Not denying, not challenging.

Now will you please answer the question about the New Covenant?
Which house are you from? The house of Israel or the House of Judah?
Because that is who the New Covenant is made with.

Bob S said:

Why are you avoiding answering my questions? Why did God provide all mankind with the new covenant that is not like the old one?

Click to expand...

He provided the New Covenant (marriage contract) with the House of Israel and the House of Judah ONLY.

You have to be part of one or the other.

Clare73 said:

According to authoritative NT apostolic teaching, by Jer 31:31 speaking of a new covenant, the Mosaic Covenant is made the old covenant.

The same place that childhood goes. . .the same place that laws taken off the books go. . .etc.

Why do you challenge the NT revelation of Heb 8:13?

Click to expand...

You still haven't answered the question about when it would it be obsolete?
The passage says 'Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.'

When this was written it is obvious that it hadn't become obsolete yet. So when did it?
When did it vanish?

Simple questions, do you have an answer?

Lulav said:

Why do you keep making false accusations at me?
I said "Nothing to deny there, just wondering which house does your covenant fall under?"
Not denying, not challenging.
Now will you please answer the question about the New Covenant?
Which house are you from? The house of Israel or the House of Judah?
Because that is who the New Covenant is made with.

Click to expand...

I am of the Israel of God.

The Church is the "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16, Ro 2:28-29, Gal 3:29, Heb 8:8), as distinct from the "Israel according to the flesh" (1Co 10:18).

Bob S said:

Why are you avoiding answering my questions? Why did God provide all mankind with the new covenant that is not like the old one?

Click to expand...

Not avoiding, there's just so many replies to this thread when I come on I sometimes miss them, it's happened with my own threads.

Anyways, to your question.

First we must establish that the LORD God did not make a Covenant (of marriage) to the whole world, he made it only with Israel. It was where they promised to obey his commandments and HE promised to be their God, their one and only God and no one elses.

Later on the house of Israel broke off from the house of Judah so their were two different kingdoms.

The prophecy in Jeremiah is addressed to those two kingdoms but notice this:


When this was written it was written to all the house of Israel. Notice the covenant with Judah and Israel (vr 31) are reduced down into one again (ver 33). One new man?

Also since this was written to them only they had the law of God, the true God and were the ones accountable. The rest of the world were heathens. They could join Israel if they made Him their one and only God and followed the rules he gave to his people.

So only Israel was given a marriage covenant with the one True God, in order to be given the second one you need to be part of Israel. That doesn't include the whole world.