the wrath of God

Jeff Saunders

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I am not interested in unsupported personal opinion. Please see Romans 1:20 and Romans 16:26 in my post #94 immediately above. Paul uses "aionios" and "aidios" synonymously.
I have never said aionios can never be used as eternal, when defining Yahweh it is eternal because only he is eternal. Other times and I would say most other times it’s duration is not known, but from what I have understood aidios is always eternal and if that was what God means he would have used aidios.
 
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Der Alte

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Let me try this again , the Hebrew word used for the time Jonah spent in the fish is olam , the Greek translation of olam is aionios. Was Jonah in the fish forever? As for the two aionios it’s the same as if I were to say “ the tall man was standing in front of the tall skyscraper “ because tall was used for both the man and the skyscraper does that make them both the same height?
I am not interested the unsupported opinions of anyone. Can you support anything with scripture or any other credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence?
 
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Der Alte

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I have never said aionios can never be used as eternal, when defining Yahweh it is eternal because only he is eternal. Other times and I would say most other times it’s duration is not known, but from what I have understood aidios is always eternal and if that was what God means he would have used aidios.
Can you support anything with scripture or any other credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence? I studied both Greek and Hebrew at the graduate level almost 4 decades ago and still have all my text books and much of what you say ain't in them.
Here is one vs. from my list of 48 vss. which define/describe olam as "eternal.
Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [עולם ] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​
Whatever God does it shall be [olam] forever nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it."
That certainly sounds eternal to me.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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My post was NOT a cut and paste. You can close your eyes all you want. I did the word study of every occurrence of "aionios" in the New Testament. I listed every verse where the writer/speaker defined/ described aionios as eternal. Jesus did it 10 times. Do you believe Jesus? See my post #43, above.
I don't need to quote any ECF the NT proves that "aionios" means "eternal". Any other use is figurative.
Do you believe Origen. Here is how Origin described "aionios."

For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.

Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.
Language changes over time , why do you think that for the first 300-500 years of the church most Christians believed in Apokatastasis the very one who were the closest to the original did not believe that a loving Father would create and then torture most of those who he created. It was not until later that that idea became the majority, taken from pagans, they did not see Yahweh as a loving Father but a angry God who better be obeyed or else. It was a good way to control people not only could they control you on earth they could control you with the idea of forever torture and torment. Just the kind of thing powerful bad leadership would love to hold over people. It’s just like how our language has changed if you asked people 100 years ago what the definition of gay was they would say happy, merry, ask some young kid today what it means and it’s not happy or merry. So if you asked a young person what the line “ tow men went out and a a gay time on the town “ they would think some kind of homosexual thing but if you ask someone from 100 years ago they would think you were nuts to think that . So even if you had 10000 scholars of today that say gay means homosexuality and in all dictionaries and other reference books say the same , it still does not change the definition of the word from 100 years ago.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Can you support anything with scripture or any other credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence? I studied both Greek and Hebrew at the graduate level almost 4 decades ago and still have all my text books and much of what you say ain't in them.
Here is one vs. from my list of 48 vss. which define/describe olam as "eternal.

Ecclesiastes 3:14

(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [עולם ] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Whatever God does it shall be [olam] forever nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it."
That certainly sounds eternal to me.
If that’s meant that whatever God does it’s forever then why are we not killing animals to God anymore? Do you eat bacon or ham ? Do we make sure our baby boys are circumcised on the eighth day? No to the eastern mindset saying something is eternal till it stops is not a problem but to us westerners that doesn’t make sense.
 
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Der Alte

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Language changes over time , why do you think that for the first 300-500 years of the church most Christians believed in Apokatastasis the very one who were the closest to the original did not believe that a loving Father would create and then torture most of those who he created. It was not until later that that idea became the majority, taken from pagans, they did not see Yahweh as a loving Father but a angry God who better be obeyed or else. It was a good way to control people not only could they control you on earth they could control you with the idea of forever torture and torment. Just the kind of thing powerful bad leadership would love to hold over people. It’s just like how our language has changed if you asked people 100 years ago what the definition of gay was they would say happy, merry, ask some young kid today what it means and it’s not happy or merry. So if you asked a young person what the line “ tow men went out and a a gay time on the town “ they would think some kind of homosexual thing but if you ask someone from 100 years ago they would think you were nuts to think that . So even if you had 10000 scholars of today that say gay means homosexuality and in all dictionaries and other reference books say the same , it still does not change the definition of the word from 100 years ago.
No scripture. No credible, verifiable, historical, lexical, grammatical evidence for anything. Nothing but unsupported opinion. Nothing I posted is affected by any so-called changes in language. Did or did not Jesus define/describe "aionios" as eternal/everlasting.
 
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Der Alte

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If that’s meant that whatever God does it’s forever then why are we not killing animals to God anymore? Do you eat bacon or ham ? Do we make sure our baby boys are circumcised on the eighth day? No to the eastern mindset saying something is eternal till it stops is not a problem but to us westerners that doesn’t make sense.
Hyperbole! Figurative language. A few uses which are not or could not be eternal does NOT determine the meaning. I could quote the definition of aionios from the Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich, Greek lexicon with 80 sources but you would ignore it. I quoted 26 vss. in my post on "aionios" which you have ignored. and have 48 vss. on Olam. I posted 10 of those vss. I keep asking for scripture and any other credible, etc evidence. Crickets.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Can you support anything with scripture or any other credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence? I studied both Greek and Hebrew at the graduate level almost 4 decades ago and still have all my text books and much of what you say ain't in
If that’s meant that whatever God does it’s forever then why are we not killing animals to God anymore? Do you eat bacon or ham ? Do we make sure our baby boys are circumcised on the eighth day? No to the eastern mindset saying something is eternal till it stops is not a problem but to us westerners that doesn’t make sense.
If that’s meant that whatever God does it’s forever then why are we not killing animals to God anymore? Do you eat bacon or ham ? Do we make sure our baby boys are circumcised on the eighth day? No to the eastern mindset saying something is eternal till it stops is not a problem but to us westerners that doesn’t make sense.
L
Here is one vs. from my list of 48 vss. which define/describe olam as "eternal.

(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [עולם ] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Whatever God does it shall be [olam] forever nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it."
That certainly sounds eternal to me.
If that’s meant that whatever God does it’s forever then why are we not killing animals to God anymore? Do you eat bacon or ham ? Do we make sure our baby boys are circumcised on the eighth day? No to the eastern mindset saying something is eternal till it stops is not a problem but to us westerners that doesn’t make sense
No scripture. No credible, verifiable, historical, lexical, grammatical evidence for anything. Nothing but unsupported opinion. Nothing I posted is affected by any so-called changes in language. Did or did not Jesus define/describe "aionios" as eternal/everlasting.
Do you believe we can know nothing of Yahweh apart from scripture?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Hyperbole! Figurative language. A few uses which are not or could not be eternal does NOT determine the meaning. I could quote the definition of aionios from the Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich, Greek lexicon with 80 sources but you would ignore it. I quoted 26 vss. in my post on "aionios" which you have ignored. and have 48 vss. on Olam. I posted 10 of those vss. I keep asking for scripture and any other credible, etc evidence. Crickets.
All the cut and paste that you do is from the Augustine tradition I reject that tradition no different than you reject the tradition of the earlier fathers from the first 300 years of church. All I know is that I used to believe and teach what you teach. When I went to prove the UR position wrong I started to read the early church fathers and found out about Apokatastasis and now I don’t have to jump through all the hoops of making two will of God. Or trying to explain that when Jesus said he was the savior of the world he really meant potential savior, or when scripture says every knee will bow and every tongue confess ( Greek is happy and joyfully confess) it’s not a forceful act, and many more scripture verses. All I had to do is translate one word to what some say is the correct translation aionios from eternal to of the age and all the hoops go away. God now wins satan loses Yahweh 100% satan 0%
 
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atpollard

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Are you saying we don't all get judged?
Not Judged ... John 3:18 "The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
 
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atpollard

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How long before Satan repents and loves God?
Have the demons been restored by their expulsion from paradise (heaven)?

... so what makes fallen men so different that Romans 1:18-32 allowed to play out unrestrained for "ages" will suddenly result in perfect holiness?
No, Universalism just doesn't make "logical" sense of scripture.
 
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atpollard

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You've misinterpreted the scripture here.
The gift is grace (Gods mercy and kindness), through our faith (blind trust) in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Take a more modern interpretation as an example:

Ephesians 2:8​

NLT​

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.​

I am not one to get into the nuances of it, but if I remember correctly "gift" is [gender neutral] while "saved" and "faith" and "grace" are all [male] or [female], so under Greek grammar it is impossible for any one of those words to be the "gift" all by itself. I think the "gift" is the whole "shebang" ... ["saved by grace through faith"] = ["gift"]

(So does God know how to give great gifts, or what?) :)
 
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Der Alte

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All the cut and paste that you do is from the Augustine tradition I reject that tradition no different than you reject the tradition of the earlier fathers from the first 300 years of church. All I know is that I used to believe and teach what you teach. When I went to prove the UR position wrong I started to read the early church fathers and found out about Apokatastasis and now I don’t have to jump through all the hoops of making two will of God. Or trying to explain that when Jesus said he was the savior of the world he really meant potential savior, or when scripture says every knee will bow and every tongue confess ( Greek is happy and joyfully confess) it’s not a forceful act, and many more scripture verses. All I had to do is translate one word to what some say is the correct translation aionios from eternal to of the age and all the hoops go away. God now wins satan loses Yahweh 100% satan 0%
I don't know what you are talking about, Augustin tradition. I don't care what you reject or what you used to believe. All I have done is quote scripture so evidently you reject scripture. And OBTW I have not seen you post any scripture or any other credible evidence. How can you translate anything if you have never studied Biblical languages? You have misquoted the vs. "every knee will bow."
 
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Jeff Saunders

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How long before Satan repents and loves God?
Have the demons been restored by their expulsion from paradise (heaven)?

... so what makes fallen men so different that Romans 1:18-32 allowed to play out unrestrained for "ages" will suddenly result in perfect holiness?
No, Universalism just doesn't make "logical" sense of scripture.
Why does Yahweh ask us to love our enemy and to pray for those who persecute you? Because love covers a multitude of sins. It’s a much greater victory to win over your enemy and in the end make them a friend. This is Yahwehs heart and this is what he asked us to do also. So ask yourself which brings more glory to Yahweh sweeping all those who were against him into a eternal torture chamber ( that he must sustain for all eternity) or to pursue his enemy and win them over with his love and then all enemies will be conquered by love and will serve him for all the ages. Now tell me which is more in the character of Yahweh the loving Father who says “it’s Gods will that none parish but all come to repentance “
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I don't know what you are talking about, Augustin tradition. I don't care what you reject or what you used to believe. All I have done is quote scripture so evidently you reject scripture. And OBTW I have not seen you post any scripture or any other credible evidence. How can you translate anything if you have never studied Biblical languages? You have misquoted the vs. "every knee will bow."
How have I misquoted every knee will bow?
 
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Der Alte

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All the cut and paste that you do is from the Augustine tradition I reject that tradition no different than you reject the tradition of the earlier fathers from the first 300 years of church. ***
How could I be doing anything "from the Augustine tradition?" I only posted scripture from the 1950ish Jewish Publication Society translation of the O.T. and showed everyone that the Jewish scholars translated "olam" as eternal/everlasting. I think that "Augustine tradition" bit is your cop-out excuse to avoid responding to anything you can't deal with. Well, you don't have to invent excuses you're free to leave any time. And OBTW "cut and paste" usually means dishonestly posting something by another person as one's own work. I always identify my sources.
 
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Der Alte

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#1 How have I misquoted every knee will bow?

#2 I am still wondering if you believe that scripture is the only way to know God?
#1 "when scripture says every knee will bow and every tongue confess ( Greek is happy and joyfully confess) it’s not a forceful act," Please show me where any verse says, "every knee will bow"(Greek is happy and joyfully?) And do NOT quote the outdated Strong's to me.
When Jesus makes all His enemies His footstool, their knees will be bowing but it will certainly not be "joyfully and happily." It must be very important it is repeated 7 times. Psa_110:1, Mat_22:44, Mar_12:36, Luk_20:43,Act_2:35,Heb_1:13, Heb_10:13
When the O.T. figure of Jesus made his enemies his footstool was it happily and joyfully? Did they become obedient members of his army? Joshua 10:5-26
#2 I don't know what you are talking about.
 
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setst777

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Let me try this again , the Hebrew word used for the time Jonah spent in the fish is olam , the Greek translation of olam is aionios. Was Jonah in the fish forever? As for the two aionios it’s the same as if I were to say “ the tall man was standing in front of the tall skyscraper “ because tall was used for both the man and the skyscraper does that make them both the same height?
OK, so you refuse to quote the Scripture you refer to about Jonah that shows the difference between two olam words meaning different things in the same sentence. That is because no such Scripture exists. And that is why you must give evidence for what you state, because you can't be trusted.

Now I ask you.... Would you please quote the Scripture you say shows the time that Jonah spent in the fish is "olam"?
 
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What Greek and Hebrew word are you using that you believe says forever or eternal?
Daniel 12:1-2 (WEB) At that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. At that time your people will be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting [‘ō·w·lām] life, and some to shame and everlasting [‘ō·w·lām: noun masculine singular] contempt.

Out of 208 occurrences in the OT for the Hebrew word “‘ō-w-lām” (noun masculine singular) used, 204 occurrences translates ‘ō-w-lām as everlasting, perpetual, ever, always, forever, and forevermore, or some other permanent or unchanging way. Only 4 times is ‘ō-w-lām translated as “from of old,” but only because the context limits its use within a restricted parameter: For instance, a time frame is understood within the context.

Matthew 25:46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: accusative feminine singular] life.

Out of 45 occurrences in the NT for the Greek word aiōnion (adjective, accusative masculine) used, in all 45 occurrences, “aiōnion” is defined as “everlasting” or “eternal.” That is 100% of the time, aiōnion means everlasting” or “eternal.”

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will pay the penalty: eternal [aiōnion] destruction from the face of the Lord

Out of 45 occurrences in the NT for the Greek word aiōnion (adjective, accusative masculine) used, in all 45 occurrences, “aiōnion” is defined as “everlasting” or “eternal.” That is 100% of the time, aiōnion means everlasting” or “eternal.”

Jude 1:7 (WEB) 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, having in the same way as these given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal [aiōniou] fire.

Out of 15 occurrences in the NT for the Greek word aiōniou (adjective, genitive neuter singular) used, in all 15 occurrences, “aiōniou” is defined as “everlasting” or “eternal.” That is 100% of the time, aiōniou means everlasting” or “eternal.”

Jude 1:12-13 (WEB) 12 These are hidden rocky reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you, shepherds who without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever [aiōna].

Out of 31 occurrences in the NT for the Greek word aiōna (noun, accusative masculine singular) used, “aiōna” could be defined as “ever,” “forever,” “evermore,” or “age.” However, when you consider the context of the other Scriptures I provided that show that God's Judgment of the wicked is eternal, then we cannot in good conscience change the meaning of God's judgment to mean "temporary" just because aiōna is: noun, accusative masculine singular rather than another tense. For instance, a time frame is understood within the context if a set time parameter is meant.

"FOREVER AND EVER" literally: “ages of ages” always means everlasting or forever - OT and NT.

Revelation 14:9-11 (WEB) 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever [aiōnas: noun accusative masculine plural] and ever [aiōnōn: noun genitive masculine plural]. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10 (WEB) 10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever [aiōnas: noun accusative masculine plural] and ever [aiōnōn: noun genitive masculine plural].

Revelation 20:14-15 (WEB) 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

The eternality of punishment is taught by Lord Jesus in various ways. Some of these are as follows:

Matthew 5:22-26 (WEB)
25 Agree with your adversary quickly while you are with him on the way; lest perhaps the prosecutor deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison. 26 Most certainly I tell you, you shall by no means get out of there until you have paid the last penny.

Lord Jesus appears to be describing a place that the unrighteous will be cast into, and is eternal, because no one who is in that prison can pay anything. So this place is forever.

Luke 12:57-59 (WEB)
57 Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 For when you are going with your adversary before the magistrate, try diligently on the way to be released from him, lest perhaps he drag you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will by no means get out of there, until you have paid the very last penny.

Again, Lord Jesus appears to be describing a place that the unrighteous will be cast into, and is eternal, because no one who is in that prison can pay anything.

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is taught by Lord Jesus as another example of the finality and eternality of eternal punishment. See: Luke 16:19-31

As well, eternal punishment does not mean eternal non-existence, because the idea Lord Jesus conveys in His teachings, is that we should fear going into that place of eternal fire. In addition, those who are eternally punished, which is also called eternal death, is separation from the presence of God forever as this Passage indicates....

Revelation 22:12-17 (WEB) 12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
 
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