Is humanity a superorganism that crosses the barrier of time?

Ophiolite said:

I prepared a detailed draft dismembering your argument, but decided to go with the executive summary: verbose, pseudo-intellectual balderdash.

Click to expand...

What was the point of this comment? To insult me? I don't understand.

Jonaitis said:

What was the point of this comment? To insult me? I don't understand.

Click to expand...

Not at all. Your response was a concatenation of jargon and cliche, devoid of logic, or evidential support. I was disappointed you felt my comments were not worth your time to formulate a reply of substance, rather than the potage of waffle you inflicted on me. However, both of us have deviated from the topic of this thread, so I shall not be responding further. If you wish to continue discussion on these recent points (but without the waffle) please send a pm.

Landon Caeli said:

Being incapable of distinguishing between the concepts past, present, and future, is what keeps the other animals from accomplishing long-term goals that benefit future generations. Examples might include; contributions to science, architecture, government planning projects, infrastructure, artwork, technology, etc.

For animals, it's instinctive to always be 'in the now' - it's all they are capable of. For a human person, it requires work to be that ignorant. One example of that ignorance would be the rejection of employment, since you have to wait two weeks for a first paycheck. Building, buying or renting a home requires planning - so that's out the window too... There's no reason to go to college or further your education, because that requires you to comprehend chapters 2, 3, 4 and 5 which all come in the future, after chapter 1, which is *unthinkable*... And once you get to chapter 5, you must forget chapters 1, 2, 3 and 4, because those were from the past.

...In the end, I view it as degrading to the human person to try and convince others to stop working, stop building, stop going to school, and stop learning, considering that our weak, slow-running, hairless bodies evolved to be a species reliant on planning and remembering what works.

Click to expand...

Hmm (bit of a nitpick here): I think its from our human viewpoint to claim what is going on in the minds of animals, there(?) We really have no idea of animals' mental experiences and thus that argument doesn't carry much weight (for me).

What concerns me the most however, (and please correct me if I've strayed from your intended meaning), is that you appear to be implying that the unquestioned, long held customs and traditions of the past, are still 'ok' in today's world(?) There is lots of evidence that many aren't.

I'm not speaking of education or learning, but many of the principles and beliefs we've been working from and pursuing specifically in the areas you mention of building and planning, are nowadays recognised (and evidenced) as being inconsistent with the plans/goals of large, (the in majority?), segments of the human population.

The future is whatever we create for ourselves. Tethering our vision of the future, entirely to past ideas and thinking, stifles creativity. Breakthroughs in resolving the persistently recognised problems of the past, therefore, are also stifled and suppressed. The problems are therefore, virtually guaranteed to persist. Are we really prepared to go through all those problems again, when we don't have to? There is a choice .. but we have to at least recognise and realise that choice ..(?)

Ophiolite said:

Not at all. Your response was a concatenation of jargon and cliche, devoid of logic, or evidential support. I was disappointed you felt my comments were not worth your time to formulate a reply of substance, rather than the potage of waffle you inflicted on me. However, both of us have deviated from the topic of this thread, so I shall not be responding further. If you wish to continue discussion on these recent points (but without the waffle) please send a pm.

Click to expand...

I don't mind to carry on the discussion elsewhere. I haven't had the interest in this thread since the last time I responded before you resurrected the conversation.

SavedByGrace3 said:

I agree... on a macro scale, we are the sum total of all those that passed before. Ultimately this is a downward trend in most ways. Humanity is not getting better. It is just waiting and looking for opportunities and ways to regress. Today that manifests under the guise of "freedom" and "human rights." Technology contributes to this by providing a medium to facilitate and normalize any negative feature. Normalize is the key word. Trends which are verboten in one generation become normalized the next. The bar is lowered and the next generation looks for other steps downward. Positive trends are rarely perpetuated. Each generation becomes less civilized than the previous. Much of this "progress" occurs because of the principle of cultural indulgence. We can afford for people to act in this manner. So we let it go. "Live and let live." One of two events will occur. Either the human "culture animal" collapses from within, having no principles to sustain, or a great calamity occurs that either wipes them out or destroys the indulgence factor, hence resetting the human animal back to a state of quasi-innocence. Amazingly, this downward trend and ultimate failure is obvious to all who see it coming, yet they are helpless to prevent it. In many cases, knowledge of the impending collapse will hasten that end. With a vengeance. The are going to "party like it's 1999."

Click to expand...

If its 'obvious to all who see it coming', then perhaps those folk who envisage that, should consider adopting a different perspective on what 'an obvious future' really is(?) .. I mean after all, that's how humans handled that issue, many times over in the past.

SelfSim said:

If its 'obvious to all who see it coming', then perhaps those folk who envisage that, should consider adopting a different perspective on what 'an obvious future' really is(?) .. I mean after all, that's how humans handled that issue, many times over in the past.

Click to expand...

People do not learn from the failures of past cultures/nations.
They tear down the statues, burn the books, redefine words, make "living documents" out of the established rules, and ultimately rewrite the history of those hard-learned lessons. So here we go again!

SavedByGrace3 said:

People do not learn from the failures of past cultures/nations.
They tear down the statues, burn the books, redefine words, make "living documents" out of the established rules, and ultimately rewrite the history of those hard-learned lessons. So here we go again!

Click to expand...

Looks like you just demonstrated my point by asserting some glib, cherry-picked truism, that you just believe to be so(?)

Ie: you actually stand for repeating the mistakes of the past, so that you can get a personal 'buzz' out of being right about that ..(?)

The 'vicious circle' technique I mentioned previously, strikes again!

SelfSim said:

Looks like you just demonstrated my point by asserting some glib, cherry-picked truism, that you just believe to be so(?)

Ie: you actually stand for repeating the mistakes of the past, so that you can get a personal 'buzz' out of being right about that ..(?)

The 'vicious circle' technique I mentioned previously, strikes again!

Click to expand...

As I said... here we go again. Howbeit glibly.

Landon Caeli said:

But our human viewpoints do hold some validity, considering the many thousands of years of complex information gathering that we possess. For instance, we can use our knowledge of the scientific method to measure what information is passed down from generation to generation in squirrels and birds, and how it's passed. We can actually prove that the main source of information passed is through genetics, via Natural Selection, as opposed to the passing on of inter-generational knowledge. For instance, the bird knows not to let a human get closer than around 20 ft. by instinct. Nest building is also based on instinct. But as far as communicating any sort of ideas across swaths of generations, it doesn't appear to be a common occurrence at all outside genetics... Except with us, where it appears fundamental as a major part of who we are.

Click to expand...

I think the information passed though genetics is more our explanation to ourselves, for what we see with squirrels(?)
I'm not so sure the same can be as easily said for, say, the more observable intelligent bird species though.

There seems to be more of a mix of instinctive (genetic) and intergenerational (communicated), in differing proportions, across all species. Its hard for us to say that a child doesn't acquire a bulk of knowledge by way of mimicking its parents' behaviours, when it comes to more 'intelligent birds or orcas/whales (for eg), though(?) I suppose that may just be because we can't as easily track/observe the offspring behaviours over their lifetimes and compare it directly with its parents' though.
We observe some species 'adopting' others' offspring and train 'em up in survival skills, too.

Landon Caeli said:

The past isn't something we should be yearning for, instead …

Click to expand...

have you not read Lord of the Rings?

Landon Caeli said:

Sorry, I haven't.

Click to expand...

I know… your thinking would be different

SavedByGrace3 said:

People do not learn from the failures of past cultures/nations.
They tear down the statues, burn the books, redefine words, make "living documents" out of the established rules, and ultimately rewrite the history of those hard-learned lessons. So here we go again!

Click to expand...

Mmm. Freedom and human rights. Best restrict the former and deny the latter. Just like the good ol' days, eh?