‘Get rid of them trash books,’ - West Michigan library millage fails again over LGBTQ books

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rjs330

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Or don’t do that, use private schools if you wish, but don’t dismantle a functioning education system for the rest who don’t share your beliefs.

The education system is not functioning properly. That's the problem. And the rest of us? What are you talking about? I bet there is pretty close to half the country that would like to either take a their kids out of public schools and put them in a school of their choice or home school them. But they can't afford it. So it's not like the school system is amazing and we all love what it's doing except you leftists. A lot of people want out, but with the basic monopoly the system has in education there is little most people can do about it. So instead of pulling kids out we want to return it to it's initial function which was to educate children on the necessary subject and stop indoctrinating them on the leftist ideology.
 
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rjs330

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It's a separate discussion about whether specifically under 18's should be allowed access to a specific book.

No that's the discussion here. Why do you support kids having access to these types of books?

We've been discussing these kinds of books for a while and you always defend them when we bring up who the target audience is.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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And you can get what you want, but if you feel public schools are inadequate to meet your needs, then seek other options. Leave public education intact for everyone else.
My tax dollars go to fund these indoctrination centers. So I do not intend to be silent. We need some affirmation from the state level down through to the school board and local admins that they are not going to indoctrinate children against their parent's wishes or hide what they are doing from the parents. That is not acceptable!
 
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Bradskii

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Why don't we skip it and you just tell me a good reason for why you support this?
Why don't we continue...

It's important because at some point everyone needs to draw a line in the sand. To state at what age any given book is suitable for a particular age. You have declared that 17 year olds - people who are old enough to get married, have children, go to war - should not be reading a book that is available for anyone to buy in any normal bookshop.

This is not discussing what should be in a library. This is not discussing what 12 year olds should be reading. This is not discussing inappropriate contentography. This is not discussing anything except your views on specific ages for specific books. It's about giving anyone who is interested in discussing the matter in general a heads up on where you draw that specific line. And whether they think it's actually worth the effort, now knowing your position. Which I personally think is extreme and cannot reasonably be supported

Others may view it differently. That's up to them.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Just to show how deceitful the press is, they had a poll about school preference. They have you three choices. Public Schools, Private non-religious schools, and Religious schools. Private schools got 30%, religious schools got 30%, and Public Schools got 40%. From that, they deduced that people want public schools more than private and religious schools. This is an example of how pollsters can rig their polls to achieve the end they want. They intentionally split the non-public school vote to sway the pole. The truth is most people preferred non-public schools (60%) over public schools(40%). Balderdash. I wonder if the Michigan library used similar tactics. This is why many people are becoming more libertarian. They just do not trust either side.
 
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Bradskii

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No that's the discussion here. Why do you support kids having access to these types of books?

We've been discussing these kinds of books for a while and you always defend them when we bring up who the target audience is.
There are many variables. Are they suitable, should they be in libraries, what section, what age etc. The specific discussion was tying down one person's view on one specific book and whether it could be read at all by a specific age group. I can't be clearer than that and I won't spend any more time explaining it either.
 
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Bradskii

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Just to show how deceitful the press is, they had a poll about school preference. They have you three choices. Public Schools, Private non-religious schools, and Religious schools. Private schools got 30%, religious schools got 30%, and Public Schools got 40%. From that, they deduced that people want public schools more than private and religious schools. This is an example of how pollsters can rig their polls to achieve the end they want. They intentionally split the non-public school vote to sway the pole. The truth is most people preferred non-public schools (60%) over public schools(40%). Balderdash. I wonder if the Michigan library used similar tactics. This is why many people are becoming more libertarian. They just do not trust either side.
You're right. It's all about preferences. When our kids went to school we had a choice: private or public. We preferred private. That was our choice. We didn't say 'we don't like the public schools so close them down and then help me pay to send my kids to private ones'. It doesn't work like that, my friend.

You too have a choice. You can have a preference. Public or private. Like they say, you pay your money and you make that choice. I teach part time at a public school. An excellent one. And I gotta tell you that if you turned up and demanded it be closed (and you wanted some cash out of the savings) then let's just say that any parents present would be escorting you from the premises toute suite and suggesting in no uncertain terms that you not come back.
 
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comana

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My tax dollars go to fund these indoctrination centers. So I do not intend to be silent. We need some affirmation from the state level down through to the school board and local admins that they are not going to indoctrinate children against their parent's wishes or hide what they are doing from the parents. That is not acceptable!
Go for it. Get active. The best schools are backed by supportive parents.
 
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Ligurian

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Well, at least you have agreed that the child/teacher relationship is something you don't understand.

I DO understand... in fact, that's WHY I disagree.
Try taking my words at face value, this time.
See how that works out for you.
 
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Bradskii

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I DO understand... in fact, that's WHY I disagree.
Try taking my words at face value, this time.
See how that works out for you.
That's not correct. You used a term to me about that relationship (teacher/pupil) saying that 'you don't understand it either.' (50 posts ago). That's an acceptance that you didn't understand it in the first instance. And I immediately confirmed that in the following post, as quoted above. That's me taking what you said at face value and checking to see if that's what you meant.

Now you say you do, contradicting what you said earlier.

I'll take everything you say at face value. It's your responsibility to say what you mean.
 
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Or don’t do that, use private schools if you wish, but don’t dismantle a functioning education system for the rest who don’t share your beliefs.
Now where's the fun in that?
 
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Nithavela

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Just to show how deceitful the press is, they had a poll about school preference. They have you three choices. Public Schools, Private non-religious schools, and Religious schools. Private schools got 30%, religious schools got 30%, and Public Schools got 40%. From that, they deduced that people want public schools more than private and religious schools. This is an example of how pollsters can rig their polls to achieve the end they want. They intentionally split the non-public school vote to sway the pole. The truth is most people preferred non-public schools (60%) over public schools(40%). Balderdash. I wonder if the Michigan library used similar tactics. This is why many people are becoming more libertarian. They just do not trust either side.
Citation please.
 
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rjs330

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There are many variables. Are they suitable, should they be in libraries, what section, what age etc. The specific discussion was tying down one person's view on one specific book and whether it could be read at all by a specific age group. I can't be clearer than that and I won't spend any more time explaining it either.

Weren't we discussing a particular book here? I thought we were. In fact I know we were. Post 271. Did you miss that? As the discussion went there were some descriptions about what were in the book and the age it was targeted at. And you jumped right in defending it and being concerned about 17 year olds or 18 year olds. This book is targeted at 12 year olds. We keep telling you this. Why do you keep ignoring that? It was a specific book. Should this book be available for kids that age?
 
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Whyayeman

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I'm sure that you probably understand what I mean by "ugly truth" or "emotionally unsatisfying truths" as I like to call them. These were always a matter of interest to me because I realized that even proving them to a very rationalistic person can be extremely difficult.

If you follow that rabbit hole a little further....you can reach the logical conclusion that there are also disasterous truths. Things that are true but because of the likely results of acceptance as truths....you'd never want to convince anyone of them. They are better left unspoken, unknown, and carried around as little burdens for those who find them.
'Ugly truths' are often as important as 'emotionally satisfying ones' (though here I have to guess a bit about what you think these are). The current war in Ukraine is throwing up ugly truths every day. It is in my view always to know ugly truths. When telling them to children adults' judgments are obvioulsy important. But note: adults do not always agree on how much and at what stage in development these ugly truths should be shared.

Clearly we don't.
It's a bizarre thing to see anyone defend....it's as if the book has been designed and written for the purpose of delivering children to pedophiles. I don't expect many gay people would approve of this book after reading it

As for @Whyayeman, I'm glad he simply didn't look into it...that's just ignorance. I understand why he didn't....I don't either in all sorts of situations. He can look into this, become educated, and possibly change his mind. I can have a discussion with such people. If he comes back after looking into it....but he has what he thinks are good reasons to support it....I'm more than willing to listen. I admit I can be wrong.


It's the other people. The ones in this weird belief system that denigrates their individual opinions, shames them until they no longer stand up for themselves, and tells them that the only moral choice is the one made for them....they should be removed from the political process.
Well, you tempt me to spend some time on the book in question. I understand that it is one book in particular that I should look at; it is on general sale in respectable bookshops in America and thus not inappropriate contentographic. It seems to have passed the general test for suitability. I have better things to do, maybe, but I am ready as always to change my mind.
 
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Ana the Ist

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'Ugly truths' are often as important as 'emotionally satisfying ones' (though here I have to guess a bit about what you think these are).
[/QUOTE]
I'm not disagreeing....sometimes ugly truths are really important.



The current war in Ukraine is throwing up ugly truths every day. It is in my view always to know ugly truths. When telling them to children adults' judgments are obvioulsy important. But note: adults do not always agree on how much and at what stage in development these ugly truths should be shared.

Clearly we don't.

Yeah and I've got psychological clinical studies and you know....evidence for my position.

Would you be ok with an instruction book for how to build a low or high yield nuclear bomb readily available in libraries everywhere?
Well, you tempt me to spend some time on the book in question.

And?



I understand that it is one book in particular that I should look at;

I'm making claims about one.


it is on general sale in respectable bookshops in America and thus not inappropriate contentographic.

Wait....what?

Do you imagine there's some sort of vetting of books happening?


It seems to have passed the general test for suitability.

That test doesn't exist.



I have better things to do, maybe, but I am ready as always to change my mind.

Why wouldn't you look for the content of the book?
 
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Whyayeman

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Why wouldn't you look for the content of the book?
I have looked at this, in Wikipedia:

Gender Queer: A Memoir is a 2019 graphic memoir written and illustrated by Maia Kobabe. It recounts Kobabe's journey from adolescence to adulthood and the author's exploration of gender identity and sexuality, ultimately identifying as being outside of the gender binary.

Gender Queer initially received a small printing and was marketed toward older teens and adults.[1] It increasingly entered the collections of high school and middle school libraries after receiving an Alex Award in 2020, an award given by the American Library Association to "books written for adults that have special appeal to young adults ages 12 through 18".[1] Since 2021, its inclusion in American libraries, particularly school libraries, has been frequently challenged by parents, based on the presence of some sexually explicit illustrations. The American Library Association ranked it as the most challenged book in 2021.


That is good enough for me. Perhaps I am less squeamish than some.

Once again, ignorance is not innocence.
 
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Ligurian

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That's not correct. You used a term to me about that relationship (teacher/pupil) saying that 'you don't understand it either.' (50 posts ago). That's an acceptance that you didn't understand it in the first instance. And I immediately confirmed that in the following post, as quoted above. That's me taking what you said at face value and checking to see if that's what you meant.

Now you say you do, contradicting what you said earlier.

I'll take everything you say at face value. It's your responsibility to say what you mean.

"(50 posts ago)" ... This forum's SEARCH can't find, "don't understand it either." in this thread... until this page.

I'd have to see it in context to know that you understood me well enough to correctly paraphrase what I may have said.

The education system is not functioning properly. That's the problem. And the rest of us? What are you talking about? I bet there is pretty close to half the country that would like to either take a their kids out of public schools and put them in a school of their choice or home school them. But they can't afford it. So it's not like the school system is amazing and we all love what it's doing except you leftists. A lot of people want out, but with the basic monopoly the system has in education there is little most people can do about it. So instead of pulling kids out we want to return it to it's initial function which was to educate children on the necessary subject and stop indoctrinating them on the leftist ideology.
Agreed.

Even if they did home-school the children they brought into this world, wouldn't TPTB still be assigning the books?
DO the books that TPTB assign speak to their nature? Do the books that the librarians order appeal to their nature?
 
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Ana the Ist

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I have looked at this, in Wikipedia:

Gender Queer: A Memoir is a 2019 graphic memoir written and illustrated by Maia Kobabe. It recounts Kobabe's journey from adolescence to adulthood and the author's exploration of gender identity and sexuality, ultimately identifying as being outside of the gender binary.

Gender Queer initially received a small printing and was marketed toward older teens and adults.[1] It increasingly entered the collections of high school and middle school libraries after receiving an Alex Award in 2020, an award given by the American Library Association to "books written for adults that have special appeal to young adults ages 12 through 18".[1] Since 2021, its inclusion in American libraries, particularly school libraries, has been frequently challenged by parents, based on the presence of some sexually explicit illustrations. The American Library Association ranked it as the most challenged book in 2021.
Yeah, I looked at this one too....wasn't the one I was speaking about, but I'm sure that's because of good reasons you aren't going to divulge.


That is good enough for me. Perhaps I am less squeamish than some.

Well, have you seen the illustrations?

You can do a Google image search for it.


Once again, ignorance is not innocence.

I'm not sure who this is going to impress....


I was back here after chasing far more stubborn Christians from their forums for fun. All the way back when atheists were so bored with the old ways of beating on the rhetoric of apologists they were trying to form groups and figure out social activities.


I've seen it so many times it just jumps right out. You claim you know librarians and they wouldn't place such things on the shelves. I told you I knew what was in a book....and it was such things...and I proved they had it. I asked if you knew what was in the book, you admitted you didn't.

Because ultimately, that's what this is about. This community is either being unreasonable, or it isn't.

I say, well....take a look at the content and get back to me. You claim that it must have already been vetted....I point out there is no vetting....not beyond the demands of parents.


Now you're talking about a different book entirely. Did you look at the one I mentioned? Couldn't defend it?


That's ok...I don't think you can defend this one either.


Post one of these "controversial images" from Gender Queer and explain why you believe it's aimed at an older crowd (I'll be pointing out why it's not) If these people are out of line for banning the books from a place they fund....then surely you would think the same of this website and its owners.

Post the image of the one kid with the other kid in his mouth and explain why that's a non-issue and no one should dare remove it from the eyes of children in public.


I'll be arguing the other side. I don't want to hear any complaints about forum rules....you can explain why it's harmless to the mods as well.
 
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rjs330

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I have looked at this, in Wikipedia:

Gender Queer: A Memoir is a 2019 graphic memoir written and illustrated by Maia Kobabe. It recounts Kobabe's journey from adolescence to adulthood and the author's exploration of gender identity and sexuality, ultimately identifying as being outside of the gender binary.

Gender Queer initially received a small printing and was marketed toward older teens and adults.[1] It increasingly entered the collections of high school and middle school libraries after receiving an Alex Award in 2020, an award given by the American Library Association to "books written for adults that have special appeal to young adults ages 12 through 18".[1] Since 2021, its inclusion in American libraries, particularly school libraries, has been frequently challenged by parents, based on the presence of some sexually explicit illustrations. The American Library Association ranked it as the most challenged book in 2021.


That is good enough for me. Perhaps I am less squeamish than some.

Once again, ignorance is not innocence.

Well in this case it might be. The book is targeted at kids 12 years old. Do you know what the sexually explicit material in the book is? If you did you might be a bit more squeemish. I have a hard time believing most adults would not find it wholly inappropriate for kids that age.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I have a hard time believing most adults would not find it wholly inappropriate for kids that age.
For the 11th time, regardless of its appropriateness or lack thereof, this book was never in the kids section of this library.
 
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