Help with Ephesians 5: 21-23

Clare73 · Nov 29, 2022

GDL said:
Yes, we do. Sadly, there are always debates, and at times harsh ones. But I appreciate truth and wisdom whenever and wherever I see it. Your recent response (a week or so ago?) to a post I expressed to you my appreciation of was one of the best, succinct, and wise responsive statements I've seen on this forum. No matter any history, I will always try to see the new day & always appreciate and commend expressed truth. The only external thing better than seeing or hearing it expressed by one of my siblings here in Christ will be sitting face-to-face with Him experiencing it always being expressed verbally and in action.

Copy that. . .

And I find your recent posts to be the same.

Carl Emerson · Nov 29, 2022

OK here the rub...

We have one of the most disastrous domestic violence records world wide.

Within Christian circles forcing wives into submission is justified through reference to the verses I raised in the OP.

I put the case for the Greek passive voice indicating that to be in submission was a non-action.

All I got in response was a justification for force on the basis that He forces us.

Friends, unless I have misunderstood, what is being presented is no better than Islam, which is pretty shocking.

And please ponder this - that the Satanists present a gospel of Love by Force.

Am I to conclude that scripture supports the notion of a husband forcing his wife into submission?

I thought christian leadership was not to 'Lord it over'

ralliann · Nov 29, 2022

GDL said:
@Carl Emerson: You've selected a verse and section of Scripture that is the subject of much scholarly study & debate and not just in regard to the gender roles but to the language and structure itself. A few observations:

There is a textual variant in Eph 5:22. Some manuscripts do not have the command to submit which means the mutual submission is carried over from Eph 5:21 and specifically applied to wives. Other manuscripts have either a 2nd person plural command or a 3rd person command.

When @Paidiske shows the participle form of the word, she's likely referring to it not being in 5:22 but carried over from 5:21

There is also discussion as to whether the participle in Eph. 5:21 is imperatival or dependent. IOW, is it a command or a part of the filling of the Spirit commanded in Eph 5:18? IMO it's certainly related to the filling of the Spirit & it is imperatival (commanded). Col 3:18 (Colossians is seen by many if not most as a sister letter to Ephesians - there are many comparisons between the 2 letters) has the command to wives to submit to their husbands. 2 Pet 3:18 has the same command. Titus 2:5 has also been mentioned. Each of these verses use the same root word, "hupotassō".

Whether a word is a verb or a participle, it can be imperatival. The verb form is easy to know it's a command. The participle will likely require interpreting from context.

I'm not sure why @By_the_Book says this word has no definition. It's lexically defined as: to cause to be in a submissive relationship, to subject, to subordinate (BDAG). The question really becomes what this submission looks like - is it submission to authority, or is it self-sacrificial, or both, or??? I think when @Clare73 brought Christ into the discussion from context, she may well have been saying to look at Christ as our example and also consider who He is. I'll leave it at that for now and anyone I've referenced can speak for themselves if they so desire.

As to your specific question about the passive voice: One of the ways to view the passive voice is classified as the Causative/Permissive Passive (Greek Beyond the Basics by Daniel Wallace). This means the verb implies consent, permission, or cause of the action. Wallace classifies the 2 commands in Eph 5:18 as Causative/Permissive. IOW, one who gets drunk is causing or permitting the drunkenness by drinking wine to excess, and likewise we are permitting or even causing the filling by the Spirit in how we relate to God and to His will. So, these things are not forced, but permitted or even caused. Most of the uses of this word "hupotassō" are passive when applied to people and active when applied to God. An interesting section to sort through is 1 Cor 15:27-28.

Hope that helps.

Can we find anything in 1 Peter 3:
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Ge 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

Paidiske · Nov 29, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
OK here the rub...

We have one of the most disastrous domestic violence records world wide.

Within Christian circles forcing wives into submission is justified through reference to the verses I raised in the OP.

I put the case for the Greek passive voice indicating that to be in submission was a non-action.

All I got in response was a justification for force on the basis that He forces us.

Friends, unless I have misunderstood, what is being presented is no better than Islam, which is pretty shocking.

And please ponder this - that the Satanists present a gospel of Love by Force.

Am I to conclude that scripture supports the notion of a husband forcing his wife into submission?

I thought christian leadership was not to 'Lord it over'

At least some of us agreed that these verses do not authorise, or excuse, the use of force.

Does Scripture support a husband forcing his wife into submission? No.

And you are right that misapplication of such Scriptures has been used to justify domestic violence. It is something to which the church needs to pay much more attention.

I would argue that we need to work on building a explicit, coherent and healthy theology of power. Because often power sits in the Church's ethical blind spot.

GDL · Nov 29, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
OK here the rub...

We have one of the most disastrous domestic violence records world wide.

I'll assume you know the facts and I'm sorry to hear this. I'm certain your nation is not the only one experiencing this problem.

Carl Emerson said:
Within Christian circles forcing wives into submission is justified through reference to the verses I raised in the OP.

People using God's Word erroneously to justify bad behavior is nothing new or unusual. God's Word is not the problem. People are the problem.

I've been involved advising in discussions concerning these situations where it was not only men but other wives sternly counseling wives to submit to things that are as far gone, if not further gone, than what Paul deals with in Corinthians where he says to turn the offender over to Satan. The blind leading the blind and sternly advising to sin. IMO we are sadly dealing with a very unlearned generation of Christians, denominations that are obviously not Christian, assemblies that have no mature leadership or disciplinary system and focus on doing whatever it takes to get people in the doors and keep them comfortable and coming back, gospels that do not include growth in Christ to maturity and increasingly overcoming sin, etc.

I do understand your concern. But people don't shock me much anymore. They'll use just about anything to justify fulfilling their needs and desires and causing others to share in their miseries. "Christian circles" are no exception. Some are likely not Christian even though they profess to be. And again, some are certainly not Christian.

Carl Emerson said:
I put the case for the Greek passive voice indicating that to be in submission was a non-action.

Your case was not made.

What's a non-action? What do you mean by "to be in submission was a non-action"?

Carl Emerson said:
All I got in response was a justification for force on the basis that He forces us.

I think you're reading into what was said. There's nothing that was said that supports a husband "forcing" a wife's submission in the way you speak of "force" - especially in the negative sense of "servitude" and "slavery" that you've been using - and especially violently as you identify the problem above.

Carl Emerson said:
Friends, unless I have misunderstood, what is being presented is no better than Islam, which is pretty shocking.

You have misunderstood. IMO you seem to have a desire to change Scripture to cure a problem you obviously care about when you should be learning Scripture correctly and working to change people with it.

Carl Emerson said:
And please ponder this - that the Satanists present a gospel of Love by Force.

No thank you. No need. It's a meaningless comparison.

Carl Emerson said:
Am I to conclude that scripture supports the notion of a husband forcing his wife into submission?

You shouldn't based upon how you tie force to violence. But I can read a dictionary and find definitions for the word "force" that we could have a discussion about.

Carl Emerson said:
I thought christian leadership was not to 'Lord it over'

I think what I said was pretty clear. If you have specific questions, please feel free to ask.

Carl Emerson · Nov 29, 2022

GDL said:
I'll assume you know the facts and I'm sorry to hear this. I'm certain your nation is not the only one experiencing this problem.

People using God's Word erroneously to justify bad behavior is nothing new or unusual. God's Word is not the problem. People are the problem.

I've been involved in discussions concerning these situations where it was not only men but other wives sternly counseling wives to submit to things that are as far gone, if not further gone, than what Paul deals with in Corinthians where he says to turn the offender over to Satan. The blind leading the blind. IMO we are sadly dealing with a very unlearned generation of Christians, denominations that are obviously not Christian, assemblies that have no mature leadership or disciplinary system and focus on doing whatever it takes to get people in the doors and keep them comfortable and coming back, gospels that do not include growth in Christ to maturity and increasingly overcoming sin, etc.

I do understand your concern. But people don't shock me much anymore. They'll use just about anything to justify fulfilling their needs and desires and causing others to share in their miseries. "Christian circles" are no exception. Some are likely not Christian even though they profess to be. And again, some are certainly not Christian.

Your case was not made.

What's a non-action? What do you mean by "to be in submission was a non-action"?

I think you're reading into what was said. There's nothing that was said that supports a husband "forcing" a wife's submission - especially in the sense of "servitude" and "slavery" that you've been asserting - and especially violently as you identify the problem above.

You have misunderstood. IMO you seem to have a desire to change Scripture to cure a problem you obviously care about when you should be learning Scripture correctly and working to change people with it.

No thank you. No need. It's a meaningless comparison.

You shouldn't.

I think what I said was pretty clear. If you have specific questions, please feel free to ask.

I find your response a little strange - the conversation is not about you - and the issue is pretty simple.

I will take a breath and see what others can bring by way of inspiration.

Thank you for your offering.

Carl Emerson · Nov 29, 2022

After a bit more thought and prayer it seems that the word that describes the sin I am putting my finger on is to be overbearing.

Expecting submission as a right and insisting on it - not only in marriage but in the church as well.

Assuming the higher moral ground rather than attributing any real righteousness as imputed.

Or assuming the higher intellectual or spiritual ground and insisting on being heard.

So some are raised up to teach but then fall into the trap of being considered 'anointed' and therefore expect greater honour.

Maybe I am beginning to ramble but I suspect this is part of the issue.

So verses that are referenced to support such excesses are not at fault but the understanding of them is.

So I picked an obvious example in the OP and sought to draw out firstly technical reasons grammatically as to why such subtle overbearing is not supported.

Then we just need to consider the Love chapter that - ' love does not insist on it's own '

What is really dangerous is when congregations are taught not to touch 'the Lord's anointed'

There are aspects of the Godhead that are not rightly ours through the indwelling Christ.

Vengeance and Wrath and Judgement come to mind - along with never being wrong...

GDL · Nov 30, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
I find your response a little strange - the conversation is not about you - and the issue is pretty simple.

I will take a breath and see what others can bring by way of inspiration.

Thank you for your offering.

Desiring to be clearer, I made a couple modifications to that post before I noticed you had responded. Maybe they'll help to clarify what you find strange. Maybe they'll make it even more strange to you.

What makes you think I think this is about me?

It's not surprising you find my response "a little strange". I find your desire to want Scripture to say other than what it says strange for a Christian.

Carl Emerson · Nov 30, 2022

GDL said:
Desiring to be clearer, I made a couple modifications to that post before I noticed you had responded. Maybe they'll help to clarify what you find strange. Maybe they'll make it even more strange to you.

What makes you think I think this is about me?

It's not surprising you find my response "a little strange". I find your desire to want Scripture to say other than what it says strange for a Christian.

Eh... ?

When did I do that ???

GDL · Nov 30, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Eh... ?

When did I do that ???

I've asked you a few questions you have not answered. So, I'll leave this one unanswered for now and move back to your previous post. BTW, I'm finding that some of your posts are not showing up right away even if I refresh my browser on this thread. So, our discussion is getting a little disjointed.

Carl Emerson said:
After a bit more thought and prayer it seems that the word that describes the sin I am putting my finger on is to be overbearing.

Expecting submission as a right and insisting on it - not only in marriage but in the church as well.

Since you're using the word "force" in a certain way, I'm going to ask you to elaborate on such words, including "overbearing". They can be very personally assessed.

Your original question about the passive voice of submission is really quite a study that we can all learn from. There is a reason I pointed you to 1 Corinthians 15:27-28. I can also point you to Hebrews 2:8.

Here's the 1 Corinthians verses with the same word underlined and the voice identified:

NET 1 Corinthians 15:26-28 The last enemy to be eliminated is death. 27 For he has put everything in subjection (active voice) under his feet. But when it says "everything" has been put in subjection (passive), it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection (active) to him. 28 And when all things are subjected (passive) to him, then the Son himself will be subjected (passive) to the one who subjected everything to him (active), so that God may be all in all.

A few observations re: the parsed statements:
- God subjected everything [to Christ]
- Everything has been subjected [by God]
- God did not subject Himself
- In the future all things will be subjected [to Christ]
- In the future Christ will be subjected to God
- God subjected everything [to Christ]
A few observations re: the subjection:
- Although everything has been actively subjected to Christ, there is a future when all things are passively subjected to Christ
  - Obviously, this subjection matter requires some pondering
- Christ will be subjected (passive) to God [the Father]
  - Is our Father "forcing" our Lord into subjection? Do you think our Father is being "overbearing"?
  - Is there something we should learn and emulate in regard to our Lord being subjected to God our Father?

It's vital that we understand that this world has been divinely ordered by God for His perfect purpose according to His perfect plan. This divine order includes subordinate roles we all are to live out. First & foremost, we are all subordinate to God. Wives are subordinate to husbands to the degree that it does not conflict with our subordination to God. Children are subordinate to parents to the degree that it does not conflict with our subordination to God. We all are subordinate to human government - His servant - to the degree that it does not conflict with our subordination to God. We are subordinate to congregational leaders and teachers again to the degree that it does not conflict with our subordination to God.

We as Christians are mandated to convey God's order for God's purposes. If some Christians, or professed Christians abuse this, although a given that they do, God's order is to stand as the standard. This is part of the Christian light to the world, during the time left where the rebellious world does not accept the fact of God's order and its being subjected to Jesus Christ.

Our willing subjection to God and to one another as commanded is actually a witness to the world and to the angelic realm of the fact that God's Love and Love for God will prevail. This same Love is behind the divine established order that is in place for His purpose for His Love to be realized and actualized universally.

This passive voice in one sense seems to be conveying the willing collaboration of His Son and His Children to work with Him in His plan to save and bless His creation eternally. But make no mistake about it, He has subjected everything, this was done by His sovereign rule and absolute power (force if you will), and everything will ultimately be subjected, even the last enemy, death. Right now, we get the choice to be willingly subjected, experientially anyway, because legally we are already made subject. At some point this grace ends.

With all due respect, once again, God's Word is to be subordinated to. It/He is to be obeyed. That's all there is to it.

Abusive husbands are out of line with God. Abusive wives are out of line with God. Abusive people are out of line with God. But God will use them for His Righteous purposes.

"Overbearing" may well be in the eyes of the beholder. Correct and wise use of authority is necessary and appropriate in God's eyes as I understand Him. By proper use and assertion of authority we assist and train in His order being observed. By proper orientation to proper authority, we help one another do the job we are assigned to by God, which is a concept of loving one another and of a functioning Body.

FWIW, pastors and teachers (and anyone in authority over a group of people) have a tough task IMO & experience. They (some reluctantly due to knowing this) take the position of authority in a mixed congregation of spiritual infants, spiritually young people, and possibly spiritually mature people. If they seem overbearing the mature may well realize that authority is being asserted to raise the infants and the youth to maturity where they will behave and also understand.

Suggestion: Read Genesis 3:16 last clause and realize what the penalty was for the woman's rebellion and further realize that this order still remains. Read 1 Peter 3:1 and see what wives' submission may accomplish. Read 1 Peter 3:5 and see that it's what "holy women who put their hope in God" have done. Read Titus 2:5 to see what the wives' work and submission are as a witness to God's Word. Read Colossians 3:18 and see the overriding condition of "in the Lord" regarding wives' submission (IOW, remember the highest priority of subordination to God and question such things as abuse). Read 1 Peter 5:5 and see the tie between submission, humility and God's grace.

Passive voice: be [willingly] subjected to (because it's God will, command and order, and your love and witness). Some will translate this in an active sense when it's a command. In some cases, it may be a middle voice which essentially means the person subordinating does so actively, but has a vested interest in the action, or the subject person is being emphasized in some way. Some commenters simply refer to passives such as this word to be a middle/passive.

I wasn't going to get into all this unless you or someone wanted to discuss it but here it is. There's more, as strange as it may seem.

Clare73 · Nov 30, 2022

GDL said:
I've asked you a few questions you have not answered. So, I'll leave this one unanswered for now and move back to your previous post. BTW, I'm finding that some of your posts are not showing up right away even if I refresh my browser on this thread. So, our discussion is getting a little disjointed.

Since you're using the word "force" in a certain way, I'm going to ask you to elaborate on such words, including "overbearing". They can be very personally assessed.

Your original question about the passive voice of submission is really quite a study that we can all learn from. There is a reason I pointed you to 1 Corinthians 15:27-28. I can also point you to Hebrews 2:8.

Here's the 1 Corinthians verses with the same word underlined and the voice identified:

NET 1 Corinthians 15:26-28 The last enemy to be eliminated is death. 27 For he has put everything in subjection (active voice) under his feet. But when it says "everything" has been put in subjection (passive), it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection (active) to him. 28 And when all things are subjected (passive) to him, then the Son himself will be subjected (passive) to the one who subjected everything to him (active), so that God may be all in all.

A few observations re: the parsed statements:

God subjected everything [to Christ]

Everything has been subjected [by God]

God did not subject Himself

In the future all things will be subjected [to Christ]

In the future Christ will be subjected to God

God subjected everything [to Christ]

A few observations re: the subjection:

Although everything has been actively subjected to Christ, there is a future when all things are passively subjected to Christ

Obviously, this subjection matter requires some pondering

Christ will be subjected (passive) to God [the Father]

Is our Father "forcing" our Lord into subjection? Do you think our Father is being "overbearing"?

Is there something we should learn and emulate in regard to our Lord being subjected to God our Father?

It's vital that we understand that this world has been divinely ordered by God for His perfect purpose according to His perfect plan. This divine order includes subordinate roles we all are to live out. First & foremost, we are all subordinate to God. Wives are subordinate to husbands to the degree that it does not conflict with our subordination to God. Children are subordinate to parents to the degree that it does not conflict with our subordination to God. We all are subordinate to human government - His servant - to the degree that it does not conflict with our subordination to God. We are subordinate to congregational leaders and teachers again to the degree that it does not conflict with our subordination to God.

We as Christians are mandated to convey God's order for God's purposes. If some Christians, or professed Christians abuse this, although a given that they do, God's order is to stand as the standard. This is part of the Christian light to the world, during the time left where the rebellious world does not accept the fact of God's order and its being subjected to Jesus Christ.

Our willing subjection to God and to one another as commanded is actually a witness to the world and to the angelic realm of the fact that God's Love and Love for God will prevail. This same Love is behind the divine established order that is in place for His purpose for His Love to be realized and actualized universally.

This passive voice in one sense seems to be conveying the willing collaboration of His Son and His Children to work with Him in His plan to save and bless His creation eternally. But make no mistake about it, He has subjected everything, this was done by His sovereign rule and absolute power (force if you will), and everything will ultimately be subjected, even the last enemy, death. Right now, we get the choice to be willingly subjected, experientially anyway, because legally we are already made subject. At some point this grace ends.

With all due respect, once again, God's Word is to be subordinated to. It/He is to be obeyed. That's all there is to it.

Abusive husbands are out of line with God. Abusive wives are out of line with God. Abusive people are out of line with God. But God will use them for His Righteous purposes.

"Overbearing" may well be in the eyes of the beholder. Correct and wise use of authority is necessary and appropriate in God's eye as I understand Him. By proper use and assertion of authority we assist and train in His order being observed. By proper orientation to proper authority, we help one another do the job we are assigned to by God, which is a concept of loving one another and of a functioning Body.

FWIW, pastors and teachers (and anyone in authority over a group of people) have a tough task IMO & experience. They (some reluctantly due to knowing this) take the position of authority in a mixed congregation of spiritual infants, spiritually young people, and possibly spiritually mature people. If they seem overbearing the mature may well realize that authority is being asserted to raise the infants and the youth to maturity where they will behave and also understand.

Suggestion: Read Genesis 3:16 last clause and realize what the penalty was for the woman's rebellion and further realize that this order still remains. Read 1 Peter 3:1 and see what wives' submission may accomplish. Read 1 Peter 3:5 and see that it's what "holy women who put their hope in God" have done. Read Titus 2:5 to see what the wives' work and submission are as a witness to God's Word. Read Colossians 3:18 and see the overriding condition of "in the Lord" regarding wives' submission (IOW, remember the highest priority of subordination to God and question such things as abuse). Read 1 Peter 5:5 and see the tie between submission, humility and God's grace.

Passive voice: be [willingly] subjected to (because it's God will, command and order, and your love and witness). Some will translate this in an active sense when it's a command. In some cases, it may be a middle voice which essentially means the person subordinating does so actively, but has a vested interest in the action, or the subject person is being emphasized in some way. Some commenters simply refer to passives such as this word to be a middle/passive.

I wasn't going to get into all this unless you or someone wanted to discuss it but here it is. There's more, as strange as it may seem.

Love your word studies. . .

GDL · Nov 30, 2022

Clare73 said:
Love your word studies. . .

Thank you, Clare. That's meaningful. They're very basic but I learn a lot by analyzing how God uses words.

Carl Emerson · Nov 30, 2022

Thank you for your input.

Would you kindly comment on this analysis of the passage in the OP ???

“Wives [are Subject] to Their Own Husbands in Everything” Ephesians 5:24

“A woman’s like a rose. If you treat her right, she’ll bloom. If you don’t, she’ll wilt.” -Firefighter Michael in “Fireproof” Do you find this to be…

titus2keeper.wordpress.com

Carl Emerson · Nov 30, 2022

GDL said:
Since you're using the word "force" in a certain way, I'm going to ask you to elaborate on such words, including "overbearing". They can be very personally assessed.

God has the prerogative to over-rule in the affairs of man because He is Love and His ways are perfect.

Man however has mixed motives as Paul confirms, oversight in marriage and the church will then be a mix of the Spirit (hopefully) and the flesh.

Spiritual abuse in the marriage and the church is a natural consequence of man's condition.

'Overbearing' is akin to striking the rock or steadying the ark - well intended but in false attitude.

'force' is human effort in rulership which can crush the vulnerable and extinguish the growth of Love.

GDL · Dec 1, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Thank you for your input.

Would you kindly comment on this analysis of the passage in the OP ???

“Wives [are Subject] to Their Own Husbands in Everything” Ephesians 5:24

“A woman’s like a rose. If you treat her right, she’ll bloom. If you don’t, she’ll wilt.” -Firefighter Michael in “Fireproof” Do you find this to be…

titus2keeper.wordpress.com

I'd like to know your thoughts on the article first. I did read it & am happy to discuss it.

GDL · Dec 1, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
God has the prerogative to over-rule in the affairs of man because He is Love and His ways are perfect.

God has the absolute right to rule all of His creation because He is God.

Carl Emerson said:
Man however has mixed motives as Paul confirms, oversight in marriage and the church will then be a mix of the Spirit (hopefully) and the flesh.

Man does have mixed motives and limited abilities, yet God has structured systems of authority on the earth and has put man in positions of authority within those systems. It is up to men and women to come to Christ, be filled by the Spirit and learn to function according to God's structure and standards. That's what the filling of the Spirit is leading and guiding and enabling them to do.

Carl Emerson said:
Spiritual abuse in the marriage and the church is a natural consequence of man's condition.

Mental, emotional and physical abuse is due to man's (men & women) condition and the existence of a powerful enemy of God.

Carl Emerson said:
'Overbearing' is akin to striking the rock or steadying the ark - well intended but in false attitude.

Is a pastor teacher in Church overbearing if he teaches with authority or admonishes for rude behavior?

Carl Emerson said:
'force' is human effort in rulership which can crush the vulnerable and extinguish the growth of Love.

That may be one way to view force, but it is not the only way. Because dictionaries are mostly descriptive now, look up the word in a few of them and you'll see that force also carries some positive definitions, such as the power to persuade or convince (Thank You God). Also, force can be applied in varying degrees and using various means. Force can also be countered, such as I will counter your attempts to force only a negative meaning of the word "force" to make your case against the commanded proper submission of the wife in marriage.

Carl Emerson · Dec 1, 2022

GDL said:
I'd like to know your thoughts on the article first. I did read it & am happy to discuss it.

Right from the get go I requested input from Greek scholars - I have a smattering of Greek but am certainly not a scholar.

My hope was a variety of responses from those more qualified to comment.

I hope this thread attracts more inspired and informed commentary on the Greek text so I can grasp the issues and settle on a position.

Carl Emerson · Dec 1, 2022

GDL said:
God has the absolute right to rule all of His creation because He is God.

Man does have mixed motives and limited abilities, yet God has structured systems of authority on the earth and has put man in positions of authority within those systems. It is up to men and women to come to Christ, be filled by the Spirit and learn to function according to God's structure and standards. That's what the filling of the Spirit is leading and guiding and enabling them to do.

Mental, emotional and physical abuse is due to man's (men & women) condition and the existence of a powerful enemy of God.

Is a pastor teacher in Church overbearing if he teaches with authority or admonishes for rude behavior?

That may be one way to view force, but it is not the only way. Because dictionaries are mostly descriptive now, look up the word in a few of them and you'll see that force also carries some positive definitions, such as the power to persuade or convince (Thank You God). Also, force can be applied in varying degrees and using various means. Force can also be countered, such as I will counter your attempts to force only a negative meaning of the word "force" to make your case against the commanded proper submission of the wife in marriage.

Are you advocating the use of force in ministry?

GDL · Dec 1, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Right from the get go I requested input from Greek scholars - I have a smattering of Greek but am certainly not a scholar.

My hope was a variety of responses from those more qualified to comment.

I hope this thread attracts more inspired and informed commentary on the Greek text so I can grasp the issues and settle on a position.

IMO the article does not require knowledge of Greek to begin to form an opinion of its content. All it takes is some basic reasoning. Read what it says about gravity. Does it make sense to you that this is all the Eph5:22 verse is telling us? If one defies gravity and is not overcoming it with an airplane as the article suggests, are there consequences for attempting to do so? If the concept of the passive was merely descriptive as this article posits, would there be consequences for not functioning within the description?

If you'd like my opinion of the article from the perspective of basic reasoning and 3 years of seminary training & practical work in Greek, being asked by my professor to travel to your part of the world to teach it, + 2-3 decades of working in it & translating it, I'd tell you not to rely on the article's input based upon reasoning or Greek. But I don't think you like my conclusions.

Carl, IMO the answer you seek is not to be found in the instruction of the woman's submission, but in the instruction of the husband's responsibility to love. Is the problem with the abused or the abuser? Remember, her submission is "in the Lord" and his mandate is to nourish and cherish. Is His command for anyone to abuse and be abused?

I'm going to copy for you some of the instruction on the Greek passive voice from an advanced Greek textbook written by a Greek scholar. It's not that difficult to understand. If you have questions, please feel free to ask. I gave you the book reference and part of the instruction from the Causative/Permissive Passive below in a prior post. I'm not going to post the entire Section A dealing with agency.

Passive Voice

B. Passive Uses

► 1. Simple Passive

a. Definition

The most common use of the passive voice is to indicate that the subject receives the action. No implication is made about cognition, volition, or cause on the part of the subject. This usage occurs both with and without an expressed agent.

b. Illustrations

Mark 4:6	ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος ἐκαυματίσθη
	when the sun rose, it was scorched
Luke 6:10	ἀπεκατεστάθη ἡ χεὶρ αὐτοῦ
	his hand was restored

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Acts 1:5	ὑμεῖς ἐν πνεύματι βαπτισθήσεσθε ἁγίῳ
	you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit
Rom 5:1	δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως εἰρήνην ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
	Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God.
1 Cor 12:13	ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν . . . καὶ πάντες ἓν πνεῦμα ἐποτίσθημεν107
	we all were baptized by one Spirit into one body . . . and we all were made to drink [of] one Spirit

Some suggest that Spirit-baptism is normally a post-conversion event (as on the day of Pentecost), but the double emphasis on “all,” coupled with the passive verbs, suggests that this took place at the point of conversion. The analogy with Pentecost fails, too, because the disciples did not fully realize nor apprehend the spiritual events of that day at the moment they occurred (note the passive verbs in Acts 2:3, 4).

Heb 3:4	πᾶς οἶκος κατασκευάζεται ὑπό τινος
	every house is built by someone

Cf. also Luke 1:4; John 12:5; Acts 1:2; 2:3; 4:9; Rom 1:13; 2:13; 7:2; 1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:6; Gal 1:12; 3:1, 16; Phil 1:29; 2:17; Col 2:7; Phlm 15; Jas 2:7; 1 Pet 2:4; 3 John 12; Jude 13; Rev 7:5.

2. Causative/Permissive Passive

a. Definition

The causative/permissive passive, like its middle counterpart, implies consent, permission, or cause of the action of the verb on the part of the subject. This usage is rare,108 usually shut up to imperatives (as would be expected, since imperatives intrinsically involve volition).109 It is difficult to decide whether a given passive is causative or permissive;110 hence, the two categories are combined for pragmatic reasons.

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b. Illustrations

Luke 7:7	ἰαθήτω ὁ παῖς μου111
	let my servant be healed
Luke 11:38	ὁ Φαρισαῖος ἰδὼν ἐθαύμασεν ὅτι οὐ πρῶτον ἐβαπτίσθη πρὸ τοῦ ἀρίστου112
	When the Pharisee saw this, he was amazed because [Jesus] did not first allow himself to be washed before the meal.

Jesus as a guest in the Pharisee’s house would be washed by another.

1 Cor 6:7	διὰ τί οὐχὶ μᾶλλον ἀδικεῖσθε; διὰ τί οὐχὶ μᾶλλον ἀποστερεῖσθε;
	Why not allow yourselves to be wronged? Why not allow yourselves to be defrauded?
Eph 5:18	μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ . . . ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι
	Do not be drunk with wine . . . but be filled with the Spirit.
1 Pet 5:6	ταπεινώθητε ὑπὸ τὴν κραταιὰν χεῖρα τοῦ θεοῦ
	Allow yourselves to be humbled under the mighty hand of God.

Cf. also Mark 10:45; 16:6; Luke 15:15; 18:13; Acts 2:38; 21:24, 26; Rom 12:2; 14:16; Col 2:20; Heb 13:9; Jas 4:7, 10.

► 3. Deponent Passive

A verb that has no active form may be active in meaning though passive in form. Two of the most common deponent passives are ἐγενήθην and ἀπεκρίθην. See the discussion of the deponent middle for material that is equally relevant for the deponent passive.

GDL · Dec 1, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Are you advocating the use of force in ministry?

Honestly, at this point I don't think this is a discussion I can have with you. You seem to have a one-sided view of the word "force" even though it is not a single definition word. I have suggested you look up the word to gain a wider frame of reference and you seem unwilling to do so. You also seem to be seeking only the answer you desire, which is a characteristic of eisegetes and the unteachable.

Here's just a little input from Scripture about exercising authority - using appropriate force - in ministry and responding to it. You decide what it means:

NET Titus 1:5 The reason I left you in Crete was to set in order the remaining matters and to appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.

NET Titus 1:10-13 For there are many rebellious people, idle talkers, and deceivers, especially those with Jewish connections, 11 who must be silenced because they mislead whole families by teaching for dishonest gain what ought not to be taught. 12 A certain one of them, in fact, one of their own prophets, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13 Such testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them sharply that they may be healthy in the faith

NET Titus 2:15 So communicate these things with the sort of exhortation or rebuke that carries full authority. Don't let anyone look down on you.

NET 1 Timothy 4:11-12 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in your speech, conduct, love, faithfulness, and purity.

NET 1 Timothy 5:20 Those guilty of sin must be rebuked before all, as a warning to the rest.

NET Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you.

"submit" here means yield to authority

Help with Ephesians 5: 21-23

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