saved by grace or by works

Ligurian

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You said: "Absent law that God establishes as applicable to a person, there can be no transgression by that person and mercy has no application (as it relates to being judged righteous by God)."

I said: "If you were blind = didn't know the law according to God... then you would be guilt-free. Once you have that knowledge, THEN you are accountable... as you've said."

Then you're saying that gentiles are not accountable for keeping the Law that was never given to them. Is that correct?

I wrote of a law that God ESTABLISHES AS APPLICABLE to a person/people under consideration.

You wrote of law GIVEN TO a people under consideration.

These two are not synonymous.

Explain that difference if you can.
The difference would have to be betwen
your "establishes as applicable" versus my "given to".
Personally, I don't see the difference.

For the record, I never used the words "people under consideration".
Obviously, THAT would be THE difference, wouldn't it.

And THEN the word "establishes" would have come into play.
Because the Bible requires two witnesses to establish:

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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I'd really like some help with this, as my faith idea of my faith has been shaken.
Grace would be how the list in Re:20:4 is saved, they are the 2nd group in Re:7. It is works for the Re:20:4 group. The 12 Tribes are chosen by being part of a certain family tree. The Gentile Church members are also chosen on works. A Gentile who believer the 4 Gospels are based on true stories is a Christian, as a Christ they understand their mission is to feed the poor:
Jas:2:14-17:
What doth it profit,
my brethren,
though a man say he hath faith,
and have not works?
can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked,
and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them,
Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled;
notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
Even so faith,
if it hath not works,
is dead,
being alone.
 
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msortwell

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I wrote of a law that God ESTABLISHES AS APPLICABLE to a person/people under consideration.

You wrote of law GIVEN TO a people under consideration.

These two are not synonymous.

Explain that difference if you can.
The difference would have to be betwen
your "establishes as applicable" versus my "given to".
Personally, I don't see the difference.

For the record, I never used the words "people under consideration".
Obviously, THAT would be THE difference, wouldn't it.

And THEN the word "establishes" would have come into play.
Because the Bible requires two witnesses to establish:

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Establish: To set and fix firmly or unalterably; to settle permanently.
Give: To deliver.

For God to establish a law as applicable, He need only determine it to be so. It need not be communicated to the one or ones subject to that law – it need not be given to them. The law may, or may not, be delivered to the one or ones now subject to the law, as established by God. God has established it – it is therefore now so.
 
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Ligurian

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msortwell said:
I wrote of a law that God ESTABLISHES AS APPLICABLE to a person/people under consideration.

You wrote of law GIVEN TO a people under consideration.

These two are not synonymous.
-------------------------------------
Other Sheep said:
Explain that difference if you can.
The difference would have to be betwen
your "establishes as applicable" versus my "given to".
Personally, I don't see the difference.

For the record, I never used the words "people under consideration".
Obviously, THAT would be THE difference, wouldn't it.

And THEN the word "establishes" would have come into play.
Because the Bible requires two witnesses to establish:

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Click to expand...
-----------------------------------
Establish: To set and fix firmly or unalterably; to settle permanently.
Give: To deliver.

For God to establish a law as applicable, He need only determine it to be so. It need not be communicated to the one or ones subject to that law – it need not be given to them. The law may, or may not, be delivered to the one or ones now subject to the law, as established by God. God has established it – it is therefore now so.

Who is the person/people named "thee" in Exodus 20:2?

Exodus 20:2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.LXX
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Who is the person/people named "thee" in Exodus 20:2?
Exodus 20:2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.LXX
I'm going to have to go with this being the correct answer, the Hebrew people:
Ex:19:25:
So Moses went down unto the people,
and spake unto them.
Ex:20:1-3:
And God spake all these words,
saying,
I am the LORD thy God,
which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

When you consider, the whole group was punished (killed all men over the age of 20) for balking at going to war against the Giants that would support what I said just above.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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I should have mentioned this in my existing post:
'Grace' is for the people who know nothing about God and the rules He has put in the Bible. That is not the same as a false Christian who intentionally tries to sow false doctrines.
Once a person knows that grace covers un-repented sins, they are no longer covered by grace as that would make it a 'work' rather than a 'free gift from God'. If a believer commits a sin with the expectation that grace covers that sin he is going to be a bit surprised when he is part of the Re:20:5 resurrection rather than the Re:20:4 one:
Ro:5:17-21:
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered,
that the offence might abound.
But where sin abounded,
grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro:6:2:
God forbid.
How shall we,
that are dead to sin,
live any longer therein?

Ro:6:15:
What then?
shall we sin,
because we are not under the law,
but under grace?
God forbid.

If Christians purge sinful thoughts, they never commit the sinful act. A Jewish person is under the 10 commandments as defined by Moses in the OT. If they sin, they can repent, like Daniel did in his role of High Priest (Da:9).
The ritual would be a bit different if there was a valid temple and altar on holy ground in Jerusalem.
A Christian would have to claim to be sinless if he can purge the sinful thoughts before any of the 10 Commandments is broken. I'm quite sure the determination in Eze:36 does no superseed the verses below as far as some punishment is due. Jesus has the keys to death and hell before any trumps sound. The 12 Tribes are not resurrected until the last event associated with the 7th trump from Re:11.
The 'Rich Man - beggar Lazarus' story is a prophecy about Temple Priests in a place called hell, the same hell many Gentiles will be in when the whole of the 12 Tribes is alive during the 1,000-year reign.
The ones they are waiting for are the two witnesses, when the two ascend to the clouds it will be this group that is there to greet them:
Re:6:9-11:
And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice,
saying,
How long,
O Lord,
holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them,
that they should rest yet for a little season,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were,
should be fulfilled.

It is a fallen angel that kills them, it is the 200M angelic horsemen that kill the members of the 12 Tribes that are not protected, as part of the 1/3 of mankind they kill in just over 3 years.
Re:18:7:
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.
La:1:1-2:
How doth the city sit solitary,
that was full of people!
how is she become as a widow!
she that was great among the nations,
and princess among the provinces,
how is she become tributary!
She weepeth sore in the night,
and her tears are on her cheeks:
among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her:
all her friends have dealt treacherously with her,
they are become her enemies.
De:4:26-28:
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day,
that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;
ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed.
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.
And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat,
nor smell.
 
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Ligurian

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I'm going to have to go with this being the correct answer, the Hebrew people:
Ex:19:25:
So Moses went down unto the people,
and spake unto them.
Ex:20:1-3:
And God spake all these words,
saying,
I am the LORD thy God,
which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

When you consider, the whole group was punished (killed all men over the age of 20) for balking at going to war against the Giants that would support what I said just above.

I used to use the word Hebrew for the name of Jacob's people, too. But then I learned that the Amorites spoke a Hebrew-type language. If you mean Eber's people, then not all of them went after Joseph to Egypt. Esau never went and neither did Ishmael... nor the children of Abraham's second wife. I understand your reluctance to use the word Israel, because the gentiles have pretty much taken that name captive. And the word Jews only stands for Judah and Benjamin. So... Jacob's sons were taken to Egypt and given the Law.
 
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Ligurian

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I should have mentioned this in my existing post:
'Grace' is for the people who know nothing about God and the rules He has put in the Bible.

Psalms 45:2-11 Thou art more beautiful than the sons of men: grace has been shed forth on Thy lips: therefore God has blessed Thee for ever. ...[6] Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy Kingdom is a sceptre of righteousness.[7] Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee with the oil of gladness beyond Thy fellows.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, grace and truth came by Ιησους Χριστοῦ.

Matthew 15:24 ...those who were known by God are those to whom the Son was sent by the Father. Matthew 10:5-7 ...and to whom the Son sent His 12 Disciples.


If a believer commits a sin with the expectation that grace covers that sin he is going to be a bit surprised when he is part of the Re:20:5 resurrection rather than the Re:20:4 one:
Ro:5:17-21:

Paul was in Rome before the Revelation was spoken; from there, he wrote (2 Timothy 1:15) all in Asia had turned away from him... and then he was killed.

So, the Revelation letter written to the 7 churches by John of the 12 Disciples (aka the circumcision) is to the churches in Asia which had turned away from Paul. They were following the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, which Ιησους had started teaching in Galilee to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, Matthew 4:23... and is what Matthew 28:18-20 tells them to teach to the House of Israel, scattered into every nation, including Anatolia.

Genesis 17:1-21 [1] ...be well-pleasing before Me and be blameless... [10] And this is the Covenant which thou shalt fully keep between Me and you, and between thy seed after thee for their generations; every male of you shall be circumcised.
Genesis 28:1-4 [3] thou shalt become gatherings of nations.
Genesis 28:10-14, [14] And thy seed shall be as the sand of the earth: and it shall spread abroad to the sea and the south and the north and to the east, and in thee and in thy seed shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.

Abraham's genetic seed is scattered among the nations.
Who has the DNA of one race only?

Isaiah 43:6 I will say to the north, Bring. And to the south, Keep not back. Bring My sons from the land afar off, and My daughters from the ends of the earth.

These are not gentiles. But they might be hybrids. Or they may be people who were never told they were the genetic seed of Abraham. They were made to accept another faith at the point of a sword. They were hidden to avoid persecution. They changed their names. They forgot their language. Their parents died and took all of this knowledge with them.

If Christians purge sinful thoughts, they never commit the sinful act. A Jewish person is under the 10 commandments as defined by Moses in the OT. If they sin, they can repent, like Daniel did in his role of High Priest (Da:9).
The ritual would be a bit different if there was a valid temple and altar on holy ground in Jerusalem.
[...]
Jesus has the keys to death and hell before any trumps sound. The 12 Tribes are not resurrected until the last event associated with the 7th trump from Re:11.

Definitions:

Christian: Every place that name shows up, it's by or about Saul/Paul and Barnabas. Paul called what he was persecuting the Way... not Christian. The Way is a sect of the Law of God given to Moses and fully-taught by the Son.

Jewish: The House of Judah, including the tribe of Judah and the tribe of Benjamin. The word Jew = Judah.
But the House of Israel is the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, aka 10-Lost-Tribes.
... for those who don't know that Solomon's kingdom is still divided.

The temple: From Zechariah 2:1-5 and Revelation 11:1-3, I believe the Temple is Jerusalem... and because of Isaiah 66, etc.

Of course Ιησους has the keys of death and hell, because He holds the Lamb's Book of Life, and He has the Key of David... He shuts and no one opens. The virgins without oil will have to go through the Great Tribulation to buy from Him the oil that gives sight to the blind.

The 'Rich Man - beggar Lazarus' story is a prophecy about Temple Priests in a place called hell, the same hell many Gentiles will be in when the whole of the 12 Tribes is alive during the 1,000-year reign.

Luke is not on the witness list, and cannot be added to the Book of Revelation.

John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of Me:[27] And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning. (12 Disciples)

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; (12 Disciples)

In the Millennium, only the redeemed of "the whole of the 12 tribes" will be there... those who don't fit the criteria of Revelation 3:8-10 will be weeded out.

The ones they are waiting for are the two witnesses, when the two ascend to the clouds it will be this group that is there to greet them:
Re:6:9-11:

It is a fallen angel that kills them, it is the 200M angelic horsemen that kill the members of the 12 Tribes that are not protected, as part of the 1/3 of mankind they kill in just over 3 years.

The Beast from the pit kills the 2 witnesses, Revelation 11:7.
It torments men for five months, kills the 2 witnesses after 42 months... and then kills a third of mankind. Here's why:

Revelation 8:7-12 the 1st four Angels with trumpets harm a third of the Earth and sea.

Revelation 9:1-11 the 5th trumpet, 1st woe... pit-locust-beast.

Revelation 9:14-16 6th trumpet, a third of mankind dies... this is not called a woe, because they're already here: the locusts are now called the army of the horsemen... which are now being directed by the four angels of the Euphrates.

Revelation 11:14 2nd woe ...7000 enemies killed in the earthquake... importance?
Revelation 12:12 3rd woe ...dragon on Earth, full-time... 42 months.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Revelation 11:14 2nd woe ...7000 enemies killed in the earthquake... importance?

They would be the last ones to die and enter the grave like Job:14 promotes. The one in 'the rest' that death gives up are people who have died from Cain to these 7,000 and sleep all through the time they are in the grave. It would be safe to promote the two witnesses that are killed by the Beast are after the 200M angelic horsemen have killed the 1/3 of all living people they are destined to kill.
That would include the members of the 12 Tribes that are not sealed like the 144,000 will be during the same time the two witnesses are in Jerusalem. Ezekiel:39 starts with the whole house of Israel doing a 7 year cleanup. The wreckage comes from Jesus pouring out the 7 vials, that means the two witnesses have been resurrected and have risen to cloud height where they are met by the ones the 5th seal prophecy is referencing, the two witnesses are who they are waiting for. The 144,000 will be brought to the Matt:17 mountain top on the day the two witnesses are killed. The 144,000 become the only witnesses to what goes on in Jerusalem during the time the two are in the grave.
If the bruise to the heel set the pattern for the ending sequence to the bruise to the heel it is based on His arrest at 6AM, on the cross at noon (12PM), in death at 3PM. The two would be resurrected at 12PM, the vials will have sent all sinners to the grave by 3PM, by 6PM all resurrections Re:20:4 references will be completed as far as the population that will be alive for the 1,000 years are gathered in 'spiritual form'. Before a 'spiritual being' can interact with the 'material world' they would have had to visit the Ezekiel:47 scene 1 time as that is where the living water and tree of life will be located.
That allows them to do a clean-up that would require the 'crew' to be immortal, the fire they use is the same form of fire that melted Sodom. Jesus uses it to melt Satan's Babylon, God uses it to melt the rest of the world when He is sending sinful immortal to the fiery lake.
The ones alive for 1,000 years are holy enough that God sees them as being sinless, the ones sent to hell remain in the pit in a cage that is not unlocked until it is in the Great White Throne setting, otherwise they would have been sent to the lake. After the judgment and the living water in Re:21 they are as holy as the 1,000-year group was at the end of the same day the two witnesses are resurrected.
The new earth verses from Isaiah:65 would see a month-long visit to new Jerusalem would be 30,000 of our years. Children that visit when they are 120 years old (our years) would change from needing food to remain alive to being immortal where that is not needed. There is no food during the 1,000 years that a mortal population would need to remain alive.
The 7-year clean-up is by immortal people, the 144,000 and the Ezekiel:37 group is the whole House of Israel. The bones they gather belong to the 200M angelic horsemen that killed some of them before the return happened. The gathering is a form of revenge, the bones are put into a special graveyard that ends up going to the same lake fallen angels are sent to.
The children they had in Ge:6 all had mothers that were 'daughters of Eve' so God saves them as part of the flock who ill start off like Adam and Eve only their version of Eden is some galaxy that can be seen from this earth.
By the end of eternity, the universe that is now barren will be as full of life as Eden was at the end of Ge:1.

Anybody who dies after the 2nd woe is over dies because the 7 vials from Re:16 has killed them. They are poured out within an hour of the two witnesses are resurrected, the delay is so the verses about a few people being able to run and find safety has to be fulfilled. The ones that run away are the ones that actually see the two witnesses stand up and rise from the ground.
The 7 vials takes about 3 1/2 hours to be poured out, that sends a few fallen angels to the lake and kills the 2/3 of all living people to their deaths, deaths in which they are still awake:
Ge:2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.
Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.
Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ec:9:10:
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
do it with thy might;
for there is no work,
nor device,
nor knowledge,
nor wisdom,
in the grave,
whither thou goest.
Job:14:12-17:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
For now thou numberest my steps:
dost thou not watch over my sin?
My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Isa:65:12-15:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:


Revelation 12:12 3rd woe ...dragon on Earth, full-time... 42 months.

This setting is about the 'sons of God' in Ge:6. 'The plan', at that time, was to exterminate all 5-fingered people so the 'seed of Eve' Ge:3:15 could never be born. The 'seed of fallen angels' all had 6-fingers and 6-toes as well as being 'larger'. When God called Noah, there were only a few 5-fingered people left alive, Noah, his wife and their 3 sons. The wives of the 3 sons were women with 6-fingers per hand.
God allowed that to happen as the time for them to be 'exterminated' was set for when David killed Goliath. David was under the law we call the 10 Commandments, fallen angels and all their 'relatives' were under the Re:21 set of laws as that is the set reserved for immortal beings:
Re:12:3-4:
And there appeared another wonder in heaven;
and behold a great red dragon,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
and did cast them to the earth:
and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered,
for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Ge:6:8:
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
These are the generations of Noah:
Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations,
and Noah walked with God.

Your reply is pretty involved, my reply will take a few items at a time.
 
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Douglas Brian McIntire

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When it comes to beliefs, there is only one person to learn from, Jesus. The 4 Gospels are accurate and complete for you to personally understand everything you need without someone else's ego and personal limited belief system getting in the way. The Apostles ONLY teach what Jesus himself taught. If you don't understand the Apostles, go to Jesus' Words. If there is an disagreement over doctrine, go to Jesus' words. All the writers of the New Testament mentioned in one form or another that Jesus is the sole source for gaining understanding and eternal life. When a person arrives to a complete understanding, that person never questions New Testament scripture again but finds it to be (Holy) perfect and true because God is true. That person no longer interprets scripture in any other way other than how it was written. A person might add examples whereas exact representation through examples are the correct interpretations. If a person says anything to contradict what Jesus has taught, they believe they know better than God, if not believing they are God. The writers of the New Testament don't preach themselves but Jesus as the only person who can pass-on a complete understanding and knowledge of God as God. No One in our life time has walked as Jesus had walked or you would be hearing about it. And No one can teach like Jesus because He is the only teacher. Unless they have the gift of teaching because that person had walked as Jesus walked. No one can Judge Jesus...

37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

39 He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. 41 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye. ~Luke 6~

THE ONLY PERFECT PERSON WHO HAS EVER LIVED IS JESUS and is why Jesus is called "The Only Teacher."
 
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St_Worm2

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THE ONLY PERFECT PERSON WHO HAS EVER LIVED IS JESUS and is why Jesus is called "The Only Teacher."
Hello Douglas, where does the Bible refer to the Lord Jesus as "the ONLY Teacher"?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - one last thing, how does the Lord Jesus as our "ONLY Teacher" square with verses like the ones that follow? Thanks again :)

John 14
26 The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

1 Corinthians 12
28 God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
.
 
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Douglas Brian McIntire

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8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.

Depending on the translation Matthew 23:10, but of course the trinity/God and those gifted by the trinity who understand that God would never grace teaching unless...

4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. 1 John 2
 
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Douglas Brian McIntire

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8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. Matthew 23
 
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Thank You St Worm2,

Let's become even more accurate about the truth to how understanding comes about...

Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:15-17

Let's agree with Paul...

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Romans 10
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Grace for a Gentile that has confessed the doubting Thomas story is real and is going about feeding the poor as directed. A 'false Christian' might say the story is true, but they go around ignoring the poor.
The once saved, always saved theme would apply to people the 7 letters cover. They are basically 14 relationships a person can have with God, 7 are positive and would see that person not being harmed by the 7 vials, or they are resurrected as part of the Re:20:4 resurrection verse.
The people who do not overcome their flaws before they die will be resurrected as part of the Re:20:5 event known as 'the Great White Throne' event. If they are alive on the day the vials are poured out they will die and remain awake in the grave for the 1,000 years they are there.
If grace covers the sinful thoughts, a Christian forgets to repent in a private prayer to God then is even more useful to the people who never had the opportunity to become a believer when they were alive.

Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.

A believer who thinks they are sin free or they do not have any sins to repent after becoming a believer will be surprised when they end being part of the 2nd group when they were expecting to be part of the 1st group.

There are many who 'are not yet gathered', there is no person that suffers eternal torment like the fallen angels from Ge:6.
Lu:6:37:
Judge not,
and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not,
and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive,
and ye shall be forgiven:
 
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FredVB

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Grace for a Gentile that has confessed the doubting Thomas story is real and is going about feeding the poor as directed. A 'false Christian' might say the story is true, but they go around ignoring the poor.

If grace covers the sinful thoughts, a Christian forgets to repent in a private prayer to God then is even more useful to the people who never had the opportunity to become a believer when they were alive.

A believer who thinks they are sin free or they do not have any sins to repent after becoming a believer will be surprised when they end being part of the 2nd group when they were expecting to be part of the 1st group.

There are many who 'are not yet gathered', there is no person that suffers eternal torment.

There are those claiming their salvation in Jesus and do not do anything for needs of others, it is evidence among other evidence that there is not living faith.

I was confused still not understanding what was meant about forgetting and then being more useful to people who never had opportunity to become believers when they were alive. This does not sound like anything I know about.

Those who think they do not have any sin to repent of after being a believer do not have faith with repentance, so at most it is a dead faith. They go out from among us but they were not of us...

We might have a different understanding about who suffers what endlessly, but, that does not involve essentials in which one of either among us would be terribly heretical.
 
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bbbbbbb

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There are those claiming their salvation in Jesus and do not do anything for needs of others, it is evidence among other evidence that there is not living faith.

I was confused still not understanding what was meant about forgetting and then being more useful to people who never had opportunity to become believers when they were alive. This does not sound like anything I know about.

Those who think they do not have any sin to repent of after being a believer do not have faith with repentance, so at most it is a dead faith. They go out from among us but they were not of us...

We might have a different understanding about who suffers what endlessly, but, that does not involve essentials in which one of either among us would be terribly heretical.
Universalism, which was clearly stated by Wayne Gabler, is a heresy. Thus, any discussion of it here at CF is only on the unorthodox forum.
 
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FredVB

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Universalism, which was clearly stated by Wayne Gabler, is a heresy. Thus, any discussion of it here at CF is only on the unorthodox forum.

So, he was espousing universalism in the last post, which I responded to, and it was moved from the controversial theology forum (it is not the unorthodox forum now) then to this soteriology forum? I really did not know what he meant by being useful to others who never had opportunity to become believers in their life, I still don't. Does this mean he can't answer the meaning to me, because it was moved from the forum where he could answer just after he posted? I would not espouse universalism anyway, it is not compatible with the things said in the Bible.
 
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bbbbbbb

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So, he was espousing universalism in the last post, which I responded to, and it was moved from the controversial theology forum (it is not the unorthodox forum now) then to this soteriology forum? I really did not know what he meant by being useful to others who never had opportunity to become believers in their life, I still don't. Does this mean he can't answer the meaning to me, because it was moved from the forum where he could answer just after he posted? I would not espouse universalism anyway, it is not compatible with the things said in the Bible.
Thank you for the update. I know that you definitely do not agree with universalism. I had forgotten that the unorthodox forum had been renamed as controversial theology. I am not at all sure why the thread would have been moved from unorthodox theology to soteriology. It looks like, from my perspective, that he is a universalist who simply kept posting on the thread even after it was moved to soteriology. Perhaps the thread should be moved back to controversial theology where he will be able to continue posting. In any event, I have little doubt that he, like most universalists, have a skewed understanding of Christianity in which God is unwilling to execute justice and allow unrepentant sinners to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
 
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