Discussion Charismatic groups with no pastors?

spiritfilledjm

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Actually I think 1 Corinthians 12-14 makes it pretty clear that the church is to operate like a body, with all the members having a portion to play in gatherings and meetings. When was the last time a church opened up the floor for a congregational discussion or allowed people to prophecy or speak in tongues in the church setting.

It sounds like you're going to the wrong church. In the church I currently attend, and in churches prior, if someone had a word, they'd go to the pastor or another leader and run it by them and then speak out the word if the leader discerned that it was from God for the body. Tongues are spontaneous so that will happen whenever.

Based on the rest of your post there, again, this seems like issues with those churches specifically. My church does operate bodily. What I mean is that many people serve the church in different ways. Of course we have a Pastor, Elders, a church board separate from the elders, we have different people that are in charge of different ministries in the church. Myself, I head up security, and I am also my Pastor's "armor bearer" (assistant). We have people that serve in nursery, the worship team, Sunday school, people that prepare hot breakfast and coffee every Sunday.

A Pastor that is refusing to delegate authority to others is doing nothing but hurting himself.

Though, admittedly, every move that the church makes there are two questions, is this something God wants us to do, and is this something that will bring people in. That's been the case though for many many years across the board. However, a church should never go forward with something that the Holy Spirit hasn't given them confirmation to do, nor should they not do anything that the Holy Spirit has laid on their heart to do because they think it will cause people to leave.

If I was going to a church that is supposed to be a Spirit-filled church (as we define it in this forum) but there wasn't any movement of the spirit, there wasn't any altar call, no invitation for salvation, I wouldn't stay in that church long.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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It sounds like you're going to the wrong church. In the church I currently attend, and in churches prior, if someone had a word, they'd go to the pastor or another leader and run it by them and then speak out the word if the leader discerned that it was from God for the body. Tongues are spontaneous so that will happen whenever.

Based on the rest of your post there, again, this seems like issues with those churches specifically. My church does operate bodily. What I mean is that many people serve the church in different ways. Of course we have a Pastor, Elders, a church board separate from the elders, we have different people that are in charge of different ministries in the church. Myself, I head up security, and I am also my Pastor's "armor bearer" (assistant). We have people that serve in nursery, the worship team, Sunday school, people that prepare hot breakfast and coffee every Sunday.

A Pastor that is refusing to delegate authority to others is doing nothing but hurting himself.

Though, admittedly, every move that the church makes there are two questions, is this something God wants us to do, and is this something that will bring people in. That's been the case though for many many years across the board. However, a church should never go forward with something that the Holy Spirit hasn't given them confirmation to do, nor should they not do anything that the Holy Spirit has laid on their heart to do because they think it will cause people to leave.

If I was going to a church that is supposed to be a Spirit-filled church (as we define it in this forum) but there wasn't any movement of the spirit, there wasn't any altar call, no invitation for salvation, I wouldn't stay in that church long.
That's part of my concern though, is it solely the Pastors job to discern words from the Lord? Is that not something the body can discuss and discern as a whole? What if a group of believers is gathering but there is no "Pastor" around. Does that mean no words can be had because no Pastor is around to discern?
 
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ARBITER01

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Now I know someone here is going to say they meet in a fellowship as such, I'm not saying those things don't happen. What I am saying is that I have attended gatherings that claimed to be Pentecostal, that claimed to be Assembly's of God, that claimed to be Charismatic, and never once in the years I attended those fellowships was there ever a sense of the body working and edifying itself. They all considered a well delivered sermon as all the edification they needed. Some didn't even offer a time of prayer and ministry at the end of the service.

Individual churches will only operate how they are cultivated. If it is fashioned as a top down military type, then that's what you get.

Too many people allow their flesh to get involved and want to do drunk things at times also, so leadership has responded to this I believe.
 
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lismore

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Interesting, that sounds like some have gone quite to the extreme.

Yes there are two extremes to be avoided. My family left the Catholic Church and joined a Charismatic Home Church, found one extreme there. The other extreme an AOG church where the Pastor quoted from the movie Road House. The bible says 'The Righteous man will avoid all extremes'. It's important to fellowship with truly born-again believers of good character and integrity, believers of good character will make a balanced Fellowship fruitful. God Bless :)
 
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spiritfilledjm

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That's part of my concern though, is it solely the Pastors job to discern words from the Lord? Is that not something the body can discuss and discern as a whole? What if a group of believers is gathering but there is no "Pastor" around. Does that mean no words can be had because no Pastor is around to discern?

There should be one leader over the service to maintain order. Normally this would be the Pastor but yes, if the Pastor wasn't there or otherwise indisposed, it would usually be an assistant pastor, elder or someone else that the pastor would put in charge for that service. That was part of the problem with the Corinthian church, everyone was doing their own thing, and there was no semblance of order; everything was chaos.
 
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Francis Drake

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I never heard of that before, but to prohibit leadership, including pastors, ignores the requirements Paul stated for pastors and elders.

Based on human nature, the whole things is begging for shadow leadership, which is very dangerous, and usually demonic.
Yes Paul spoke about pastors, but the role that pastors fulfil today has no connection to what Paul was thinking.
There is no place in Paul's understanding for front led ministries with the remaining attendees being little more than the audience at a theatre production.
 
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spiritfilledjm

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Yes Paul spoke about pastors, but the role that pastors fulfil today has no connection to what Paul was thinking.
There is no place in Paul's understanding for front led ministries with the remaining attendees being little more than the audience at a theatre production.

If you look throughout the NT, there was always a Bishop (what we call a pastor today) who was, indeed, the leader and overseer of the church, elders, deacons...in fact, everyone who served had strict expectations and guidelines. Even those who were just lowly "table waiters", as the apostles put it, were still expected to be filled with the spirit, honest, and above reproach. They all had hands laid on them in prayer and were ordained for the work they were performing. In fact, a lack of leadership, accountability, and general chaos is why Paul had to write to the Corinthians twice. These requirements would also indicate that not everyone served...so yes, there was a congregation who did nothing but attend and were fed spiritually. I'm sorry to be blunt here, but what you're stating simply does not line up with Scripture or the expectations that God set for the churches through Paul's instruction and the testimony given about church life in Acts.
 
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Francis Drake

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If you look throughout the NT, there was always a Bishop (what we call a pastor today)
It might be what most churches do today, but a pastor is absolutely not a bishop! A pastor is one of the fivefold ministries that should be manifest in all churches.
who was, indeed, the leader and overseer of the church, elders, deacons...in fact, everyone who served had strict expectations and guidelines. Even those who were just lowly "table waiters", as the apostles put it, were still expected to be filled with the spirit, honest, and above reproach. They all had hands laid on them in prayer and were ordained for the work they were performing. In fact, a lack of leadership, accountability, and general chaos is why Paul had to write to the Corinthians twice.
You really do have things completely back to front.
The letter to the Corinthians was not about lack of leadership at all, but about excessive leadership! Go read it properly and it becomes abundantly obvious. Paul condemned them for people following, instead of Christ following. That is what was causing the chaos in Corinth. And nowhere does Paul say that pastors ran the churches, on the contrary, pastors are just one of a collection of ministries in the church.
These requirements would also indicate that not everyone served...so yes, there was a congregation who did nothing but attend and were fed spiritually.
And your shocking statement, ".......a congregation who did nothing......."
Yup that probably describes yours and most churches, top-down institutions that guarantee Christians remain the infantile milk drinkers that Paul derided throughout his letter.
I'm sorry to be blunt here, but what you're stating simply does not line up with Scripture or the expectations that God set for the churches through Paul's instruction and the testimony given about church life in Acts.
No, my friend, what you describe does not line up with Paul's writings or what Jesus said when the disciples clamoured for leadership positions.
You, and everyone else, have simply imported top-down worldly systems of man and business management into the ekklesia.
Throughout Christendom, men have given themselves headship over other Christians and completely displaced the headship of Christ.
Paul taught the priesthood of all believers and decried the way the members were following other men.

Here's what Jesus said about leadership.
Matt20v24And when the ten heard it, (James and John secretly asking for thrones next to Jesus and above everyone else). they were greatly displeased with the two brothers. 25But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
As Jesus said, it shall not be so among you, yet that's exactly what every church does, contradicting Jesus's very specific words. And please let's not pretend that pastors are servants. If you have to ask or check permission with a pastor, then he is a ruler not a servant!

Paul follows Jesus-
1Cor1v11For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
As the above shows, Paul objected to them following after men, even after himself!

Paul repeats the condemnation here.
1Cor3v1And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
Paul describes the drive to follow men as carnal.

If you go step by step through 1Corinthians, you will find again and again that Paul expounds the nature of the body of Christ and the relationships within it, and it is abundantly clear that the typical church hierarchy of today is absolutely anathema to Paul.


As evidenced below, your description of church is completely contrary to Paul's
1Cor14v26How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
Paul expected every member to participate via the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not by wielding his intellect!
27If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

As can be seen, nowhere is the church instructed to operate as a hierarchy.
 
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hislegacy

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1 Tim 3:1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, ( bishop: Strongs G1984- overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder - the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church)
he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Paul clearly speaks to Timothy about church structure.
 
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lismore

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Pastors/ shepherds are good men and have an excellent role in the church, to care for the needy in the body and look after those who are not otherwise looked after:

Strong's Greek: 4166. ποιμήν (poimén) -- a shepherd (biblehub.com)

Praise the Lord for those with a pastoral heart :clap:

One of the references in Strong's encyclopedia explains the difference between the hireling and the shepherd.

God Bless :)
 
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lismore

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Hello!
Some protestant groups have the view that the "Priesthood of all believers" does not permit a one-man ministry or any paid/hired pastor.

All believers have a ministry 2 Corinthians 5:11-21 but pastors are specifically called to a certain task. If you look at it from a human level only certain people within a fellowship or group have the eyes to see certain needs. Many people are oblivious to the challenges of others. As for 'paid'. It frees up time. Working long hours in a hard job would reduce the energy and effectiveness available.

The idea being that there should be no clergy or pastors whatsoever, in order to have complete dependence on the Holy Spirit by permitting the Holy Spirit to utilize whomever He will, at any moment's notice.

In a functioning Church there is reliance on the Holy Spirit and most members of the body will be serving in some capacity as the Lord leads. With balance none of these things need be mutually exclusive. One body- many parts. Not all are eyes, not all are hands, but all part of the same body. 1 Corinthians 12:12-26

Are there charismatic groups/denominations that believe this, and if so, what are they called?

I have experienced house fellowship meetings which believe something along those lines. Some but not all people have gone there due to past bad experiences, reactions to bad experiences in churches or other bad experiences. Some churches with wolfy leaders can be unbalanced, unhealthy places and former members can react badly to their experiences there.

One issue with house fellowship meetings might be that such gatherings are more susceptible to personality traits- narcissists, false teachers, wolves can have a field day. And such gatherings can sometimes be rather elitist and cliquey. I have never known such meetings to survive long-term. But they can bring many blessings as well while they last.

God Bless :)
 
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