Discussion Charismatic groups with no pastors?

Dietrich Johnson said:

Some protestant groups have the view that the "Priesthood of all believers" does not permit a one-man ministry or any paid/hired pastor. The idea being that there should be no clergy or pastors whatsoever, in order to have complete dependence on the Holy Spirit by permitting the Holy Spirit to utilize whomever He will, at any moment's notice. Are there charismatic groups/denominations that believe this, and if so, what are they called?

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The house fellowship I attend operates like this. We do have "elders" who will step in and help guide discussion and direct the meeting, but they do not dictate sermons and you wouldn't even know they were elders if you didn't ask them. We are not necessarily part of The Last Reformation, but the contact information for our group is listed on their website.

I never heard of that before, but to prohibit leadership, including pastors, ignores the requirements Paul stated for pastors and elders.

Based on human nature, the whole things is begging for shadow leadership, which is very dangerous, and usually demonic.

jiminpa said:

I never heard of that before, but to prohibit leadership, including pastors, ignores the requirements Paul stated for pastors and elders.

Based on human nature, the whole things is begging for shadow leadership, which is very dangerous, and usually demonic.

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Prohibiting paid pastors is good way to cultivate biblical elders within the community.

But humans are humans regardless, so the probability for mess up is pretty high.

"by permitting the Holy Spirit to utilize whomever He will, at any moment's notice." That would be awesome but do you know any that walk live talk believe like the 12 did (with Paul)? I don't. Yet they did not do what your asking here. They had Churches with pastors on and on just like today. It grew and grew.

Blade said:

"by permitting the Holy Spirit to utilize whomever He will, at any moment's notice." That would be awesome but do you know any that walk live talk believe like the 12 did (with Paul)? I don't. Yet they did not do what your asking here. They had Churches with pastors on and on just like today. It grew and grew.

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Just curious, how do you know Pastors in the Bible were what Pastors today are?

In my background, we always acknowledged the five-fold ministries, and that such married couples were called jointly.

Dietrich Johnson said:

Some protestant groups have the view that the "Priesthood of all believers" does not permit a one-man ministry or any paid/hired pastor. The idea being that there should be no clergy or pastors whatsoever, in order to have complete dependence on the Holy Spirit by permitting the Holy Spirit to utilize whomever He will, at any moment's notice. Are there charismatic groups/denominations that believe this, and if so, what are they called?

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I did not find..any group/meetings..
- Charismatic or Non Charismatic.
- During my spiritual journey..since 1970's.
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Even though..some say/emphasize,
"Complete dependence on Holy Spirit"..
- they have a leader/leadership.
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*Interesting to note/study:
- 'Quaker' tradition.
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It seems..too much emphasis on pastoral ministry..nowadays.
- There are other 'ministry gifts'..mentioned in NT.

Dietrich Johnson said:

I'm not familiar with this. Can you elaborate?

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"And He Himself gave

• some to be apostles,
• some prophets,
• some evangelists, and
• some pastors and
• teachers,

for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ,

till we all come

• to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
• to a perfect man,
• to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;..." Ephesians 4:11-13 NKJV

Sabertooth said:

"And He Himself gave

• some to be apostles,
• some prophets,
• some evangelists, and
• some pastors and
• teachers,

for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ,

till we all come

• to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
• to a perfect man,
• to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;..." Ephesians 4:11-13 NKJV

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There is always organization with GOD, and it always involves the various leadership positions The Holy Spirit taught in the NT.

Dietrich Johnson said:

Some protestant groups have the view that the "Priesthood of all believers" does not permit a one-man ministry or any paid/hired pastor. The idea being that there should be no clergy or pastors whatsoever, in order to have complete dependence on the Holy Spirit by permitting the Holy Spirit to utilize whomever He will, at any moment's notice. Are there charismatic groups/denominations that believe this, and if so, what are they called?

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While some small churches like this may exist, in my experience Charismatics tend to err in the opposite direction: independent, non-denominational churches and unaccountable lead pastors with far too much power and authority.

Dietrich Johnson said:

Some protestant groups have the view that the "Priesthood of all believers" does not permit a one-man ministry or any paid/hired pastor. The idea being that there should be no clergy or pastors whatsoever, in order to have complete dependence on the Holy Spirit by permitting the Holy Spirit to utilize whomever He will, at any moment's notice. Are there charismatic groups/denominations that believe this, and if so, what are they called?

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I've never heard of this however the fact that 1 Timothy 3:1-7 exists means this is completely false.

ByTheSpirit said:

Just curious, how do you know Pastors in the Bible were what Pastors today are?

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Can you give a possible example please.

hislegacy said:

Can you give a possible example please.

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? Example of what exactly? I asked the other how they knew Pastors and the pastoral ministry have stayed the same since Paul wrote his letters. Since they claimed NT churches had pastors just like today

ByTheSpirit said:

? Example of what exactly? I asked the other how they knew Pastors and the pastoral ministry have stayed the same since Paul wrote his letters. Since they claimed NT churches had pastors just like today

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To be honest, it's not relevant one way or the other. However, one thing I can say is that there really isn't much difference in the office of a Pastor, as we call it today, and a Bishop or Overseer as they were called by Paul in the NT. They oversee the church, take care of it, make sure that everyone is doing ok and has their needs met, teach them, and along with the team of elders and deacons, they run the church administratively. Even if the Pastors of today were completely different from the Overseers that Paul envisioned, we don't just stop having a Pastor just because it's not like it used to be. We would strive to change it back to how it was, of course, but that doesn't mean we just stop having leadership in the church because it's not being done exactly like it was in the early church. The church is meant to have an overseer who is called by God and fulfills the requirements set forth in 1 Timothy 3:1-7

spiritfilledjm said:

To be honest, it's not relevant one way or the other. However, one thing I can say is that there really isn't much difference in the office of a Pastor, as we call it today, and a Bishop or Overseer as they were called by Paul in the NT. They oversee the church, take care of it, make sure that everyone is doing ok and has their needs met, teach them, and along with the team of elders and deacons, they run the church administratively. Even if the Pastors of today were completely different from the Overseers that Paul envisioned, we don't just stop having a Pastor just because it's not like it used to be. We would strive to change it back to how it was, of course, but that doesn't mean we just stop having leadership in the church because it's not being done exactly like it was in the early church. The church is meant to have an overseer who is called by God and fulfills the requirements set forth in 1 Timothy 3:1-7

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Well of course the church is meant to have leaders, but I don't think the current model of everything runs through a Pastor is biblical either. And it is entirely relevant on what Pastors should and shouldn't be doing. Especially if they are "the leaders" of the church.

Actually I think 1 Corinthians 12-14 makes it pretty clear that the church is to operate like a body, with all the members having a portion to play in gatherings and meetings. When was the last time a church opened up the floor for a congregational discussion or allowed people to prophecy or speak in tongues in the church setting.

Now I know someone here is going to say they meet in a fellowship as such, I'm not saying those things don't happen. What I am saying is that I have attended gatherings that claimed to be Pentecostal, that claimed to be Assembly's of God, that claimed to be Charismatic, and never once in the years I attended those fellowships was there ever a sense of the body working and edifying itself. They all considered a well delivered sermon as all the edification they needed. Some didn't even offer a time of prayer and ministry at the end of the service.

The problem is churchs operate on a corporate mentality now. I once was going to preach in an Assembly of God church, and the pastor pulled me to the side and told me not to preach on certain subjects like healing, because it'd give people false hope, they'd come forward for healing, they wouldn't get healed, then they would leave the church. It's all about how do I get more people into my church, as opposed to what does God want us to do?

God can do more with 5 people who are committed to serving Him than 5000000 who are only there for lip service. That's the issue.

ByTheSpirit said:

God can do more with 5 people who are committed to serving Him than

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Good point.
- I agree...from my experience in ministry.