Ukrain submits request for NATO membership

Nithavela

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Nithavela

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It could work, although Zelenskyy now says he will negotiate only with Putin's successor.
Ukraine will not demilitarize.

Ukraine will not retract its NATO application.

Ukraine will not accept the annexation of its territories. Maybe (and this is a big maybe) they might be willing to part with Crimea.

I also expect Ukraine to try and develop nuclear weapons in the mid term.
 
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The Barbarian

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Ukraine will not accept the annexation of its territories. Maybe (and this is a big maybe) they might be willing to part with Crimea.

It's kind of a difficult thing for everyone. Crimea is not historically Ukranian. It is ethnically diverse including Jewish, Tatar, and Russian ethnic groups. It was attached to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev for reasons that aren't entirely clear.

I also expect Ukraine to try and develop nuclear weapons in the mid term.

That would not be a positive development. But it would be a rational one. Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons (inherited in the collapse of the Soviet empire) for guarantees that turned out to be meaningless.
 
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Nithavela

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It's kind of a difficult thing for everyone. Crimea is not historically Ukranian. It is ethnically diverse including Jewish, Tatar, and Russian ethnic groups. It was attached to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
Who cares what is "historically ukranian"? No place has been owned by the people currently owning it if you go back far enough. This is just a pretext to get some other persons clay because your ancestors owned it before their ancestors.

If you disagree, I'm sure some native americans would be more than happy to take your land back anytime.
 
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The Barbarian

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If you disagree, I'm sure some native americans would be more than happy to take your land back anytime.

Since some of my ancestors lived here before that, I'm not all that concerned.

Who cares what is "historically ukranian"?

The non-Ukrainians living there.
 
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Nithavela

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The non-Ukrainians living there.
Well, sucks to be them, but there are always people who want their clay to be part of another country or independent. We have those crazies in germany too, trying to cut off their own country or something.

If those people have wanted to join mother russia, they should have moved out or went into politics and lobbied for that. But that ship has sailed.
 
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Here's a compelling analysis of what he could do to avoid further disaster:
When Winning Is Losing — Putin’s Self-Made Trap And His Way Out
This was written 3/2/22 so before he annexed the Ukraine provinces. With that, he has changed the game and he has backed himself into a corner with no way out without losing big time face. Prior to that, he probably could have negotiated his way out saying 'We accomplished our goal. Ukraine has been de-nazified and is no longer a threat to its' people or us. Mission accomplished. We are going home.' But to do that now would be abandoning "russian territory'; unthinkable after all his boasting and claims. He probably would not last long in power by calling it quits now. He hog-tied himself for sure. He can't quit now unless he accomplishes his goal or gets removed from power or the cost becomes so high he can't afford to face his own people at home. The rat has cornered himself.
 
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Desk trauma

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This was written 3/2/22 so before he annexed the Ukraine provinces. With that, he has changed the game and he has backed himself into a corner with no way out without losing big time face. Prior to that, he probably could have negotiated his way out saying 'We accomplished our goal. Ukraine has been de-nazified and is no longer a threat to its' people or us. Mission accomplished. We are going home.' But to do that now would be abandoning "russian territory'; unthinkable after all his boasting and claims. He probably would not last long in power by calling it quits now. He hog-tied himself for sure. He can't quit now unless he accomplishes his goal or gets removed from power or the cost becomes so high he can't afford to face his own people at home. The rat has cornered himself.
Nothing a good bit of defenestration couldn’t clear up.
 
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The Barbarian

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The rat has cornered himself.

You may be right. But it's never good to corner a rat. In desperation, it will attack with everything it has to survive. We can only hope that he's retained enough sanity to know that resorting to nuclear weapons would be suicidal.
 
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Desk trauma

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We can only hope that he's retained enough sanity to know that resorting to nuclear weapons would be suicidal.
Alternatively we could hope those cornered with him ensure it’s just a suicide not mass murder suicide.
 
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Desk trauma

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Well, not sure anyone has gone out a window......but, yeah some life expectancy's have been greatly reduced.......
It’s so common it’s a meme.
 
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The Barbarian

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Alternatively we could hope those cornered with him ensure it’s just a suicide not mass murder suicide.

At the end of the Nixon administration, his secretary of defense made sure nothing would go down militarily without his input. Nixon likely didn't know it, but even if he had chosen to do something stupid, it wouldn't have happened. There's some evidence that this was the case in the Trump administration as well.

Let's hope there are Russian generals who love their country more than they are loyal to Putin.
 
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