“The alternative to law is not grace; it’s lawlessness.”

Hammster · Sep 28, 2022

Clare73 said:
It is in salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9) and in justification (Romans 3:28).
And in sanctification there is but one rule, "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Romans 13:10)

How about loving the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind and strength?

Clare73 · Sep 28, 2022

Clare73 said:
That's a 95% improvement over their position at the time of Martin Luther, but there is just one more thing to go.

In the NT, righteousness of justification and righteousness of sanctification are presented as different and separate operations of God, the former by faith, apart from obedience (Romans 3:28),
and the latter by the obedience of faith (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19) in the Christian life.

Biblically, the Greek word dikaiosis; i.e. justification, is simply
a sentence of acquittal from guilt by God as Judge,
a declaration, pronouncement of the sinner as righteous by faith,
a righteousness imputed (reckoned, credited, accounted) to him as it was to Abraham (Romans 4:1-11),

but the person at this point has no righteousness of sanctification which is imparted through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19).

And speaking of improvement, there is that purgatory thing.
Just as works added to faith means that God's salvation alone is insufficient,
so also, purgatory added to the cleansing, purifying blood of Jesus Christ means that Christ's blood alone is insufficient.
Not to mention purgatory is not presented in the NT.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

Hammster said:
Are there laws in the new covenant?

Depends on who you ask, I suppose. If there are, it isn't THE law. (the law of Moses)

Hammster · Sep 28, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Depends on who you ask, I suppose. If there are, it isn't THE law. (the law of Moses)

Are the Ten Commandments part of the law of Moses?

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

fhansen said:
"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:18-20

The BIG question here is WHAT does "these commands" refer to? (see red highlight in your quote)

The inclusion of the phrase "the Prophets" in verse 17 where it says "the Law or the Prophets". I believe this is in reference to the BOOKS of the Law and the BOOKS of the Prophets, not the law itself, or the prophets the,selves, obviously. Other uses of the phrase "the Law and the Prophets" bear this out. See below.

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

John 1:45 NIV
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

fhansen said:
As long as we understand that the problem wasnt with the law, but with us. The law was holy, righteous, good, and spiritual according to Rom 7, but was unable to give us the power to accomplish its righteoues and correct demands of man-that's what makes it obsolete. Only in union with God can authentic obedience be realized-and fallen man is born disunited from God. The law served/serves only to convict us of the sin that it could never overcome in us.

Do you observe the seventh day Sabbath commanded in the law?

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

Hammster said:
Are the Ten Commandments part of the law of Moses?

The TCs are the cornerstone of the law of Moses.
I know that some claim they are not the law of Moses. I don't agree.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

fhansen said:
As long as we understand that the problem wasnt with the law, but with us. The law was holy, righteous, good, and spiritual according to Rom 7, but was unable to give us the power to accomplish its righteoues and correct demands of man-that's what makes it obsolete. Only in union with God can authentic obedience be realized-and fallen man is born disunited from God. The law served/serves only to convict us of the sin that it could never overcome in us.

Are you familiar with Acts chapter fifteen?
This question was settled at the Jerusalem Council. Where Peter said this:

Acts 15:10 NIV
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

Hammster · Sep 28, 2022

Saint Steven said:
The TCs are the cornerstone of the law of Moses.
I know that some claim they are not the law of Moses. I don't agree.

Why aren’t we obligated to follow those laws in the new covenant?

fhansen · Sep 28, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Are you familiar with Acts chapter fifteen?
This question was settled at the Jerusalem Council. Where Peter said this:

Acts 15:10 NIV
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

So... are you saying that wanton sin (lawlessness) is ok now with the new covenant? That's why Jesus came, so we can remain in our sins?

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

Hammster said:
Why aren’t we obligated to follow those laws in the new covenant?

That's a good question. Here's my take.
The law isn't a buffet dinner where we can pick and choose what we want and don't want.
That being said, we should not worship false gods, covet, etc. But not because we are under the law.
You can't observe the Ten by only observing nine. The seventh day Sabbath is part of the deal.
And wearing tassels is just as binding as the Sabbath. And don't trim the sides of your beard either.

Galatians 5:3
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

fhansen · Sep 28, 2022

Hammster said:
Why aren’t we obligated to follow those laws in the new covenant?

Yes, Jesus specifically referenced the ten in Matt 19 and Paul did so in Rom 7 and 13-as bringing eternal life, as being holy, righteous, and good, as fulfilling the law.

The righteousness given us, i.e. love, meets the righteous requirement of the law, the right way, God's way. That's why the greatest commandments ar what they are. There can't be a law against love, only agreement between the two

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

fhansen said:
So... are you saying that wanton sin (lawlessness) is ok now with the new covenant? That's why Jesus came, so we can remain in our sins?

Of course not.
If you define sin as "lawlessness" (not keeping the law of Moses) I can see how you would arrive at that conclusion. However...

Galatians 5:18 NIV
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

fhansen said:
Yes, Jesus specifically referenced the ten in Matt 19 and Paul did so in Rom 7 and 13-as bringing eternal life, as being holy, righteous, and good, as fulfilling the law.

The righteousness given us, i.e. love, meets the righteous requirement of the law, the right way, God's way. That's why the greatest commandments ar what they are. There can't be a law against love, only agreement between the two

Here's something interesting. Compare the two scriptures below.
Commandments from the TCs are provided as examples of the commandments, BUT how did "you shall not defraud" (Leviticus 19:13) get in there? It's outside the Ten, thus widening the scope to include the WHOLE law.
cc: @Hammster

Mark 10:19
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”
Luke 18:20
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’”

Leviticus 19:13 NIV
“‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.
“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

fhansen · Sep 29, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Here's something interesting. Compare the two scriptures below.
Commandments from the TCs are provided as examples of the commandments, BUT how did "you shall not defraud" (Leviticus 19:13) get in there? It's outside the Ten, thus widening the scope to include the WHOLE law.
cc: @Hammster

Mark 10:19
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

Luke 18:20
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’”

Leviticus 19:13 NIV
“‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.
“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

Those are summed up by 'You shall not steal'. Either way, they break the greatest commandments

fhansen · Sep 29, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Of course not.
If you define sin as "lawlessness" (not keeping the law of Moses) I can see how you would arrive at that conclusion. However...

Galatians 5:18 NIV
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Well, sin is defined as lawlessness, at least according to John in the third chapter of his first letter. But to not be under the law has absolutely nothing to do with now being free to commit murder, steal, bear false witness, commit adultery etc. IOW, those things will still earn you death under the new covenant.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

That's what it means to be led by the Spirit and not be under the law. Righteousness is still required with either one, but the first gets the job done while the other is ineffective and therefore obsolete. Remaining in Christ, living by the Spirit, is a daily choice, as not only Romans makes clear but the rest of Galatians 5 after the verse you mentioned.

Saint Steven · Sep 29, 2022

fhansen said:
Those are summed up by 'You shall not steal'. Either way, they break the greatest commandments

Define "the greatest commandments", thanks.
Do you mean the Ten, or the Two?

fhansen · Sep 29, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Define "the greatest commandments", thanks.
Do you mean the Ten, or the Two?

The two are the only commandments named as such…in Matt 22

Saint Steven · Sep 29, 2022

fhansen said:
Well, sin is defined as lawlessness, at least according to John in the third chapter of his first letter. But to not be under the law has absolutely nothing to do with now being free to commit murder, steal, bear false witness, commit adultery etc. IOW, those things will still earn you death under the new covenant.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

That's what it means to be led by the Spirit and not be under the law. Righteousness is still required with either one, but the first gets the job done while the other is ineffective and therefore obsolete. Remaining in Christ, living by the Spirit, is a daily choice, as not only Romans makes clear but the rest of Galatians 5 after the verse you mentioned.

We have both quoted (or interpreted) scriptures that create contradictions.
Can this be resolved? Maybe it doesn't matter?

Was it you that I questioned about the seventh day Sabbath? (Exodus 20:10-11) It's the law.

fhansen · Sep 29, 2022

Saint Steven said:
We have both quoted (or interpreted) scriptures that create contradictions.
Can this be resolved? Maybe it doesn't matter?

Was it you that I questioned about the seventh day Sabbath? (Exodus 20:10-11) It's the law.

I guess I don’t see a contradiction because I don’t see where the gospel relieves man from his obligation to be righteous, regardless of whether or not we’ve even heard the law. We either do it the right way, in communion with God, by love…or by ourselves, still unreconciled with Him while trying to obey the law- or by whatever attempt man may make to prove his righteousness. Observing the law by the Spirit does not negate it, but upholds it.

The early church still fulfilled the requirement for sabbath observance as far as they were concerned and as far as history tells but in a new way now, on the Lords Day, the day of His resurrection. Either way, the moral prescriptions of the Ten Commandments were held to be obligatory since day one. We cannot arrive at a point at where Christianity makes it ok to sin.

“The alternative to law is not grace; it’s lawlessness.”

Psalm 144:1

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