Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,268
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,030.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I'm a pessimist about eternal Australian sovereignty in the long run. As I noted before we're a large land with a small population in an Asian sea. I think sooner or later we're going to be dominated by an Asian power, and I fail to see how we can avoid it.

What we can do is decide which Asian power we'd prefer to be "close partners" with and start moving in that direction.

It would be a lot easier to do that if we were a Republic, and not referring decisions to the British crown and parliament on the other side of the world.

I think we're going to be faced with some hard choices long before this century is out, and quite possibly within your and my lifetimes.
I'm not so pessimistic. God is in control. The tiny nation of Israel survives, thrives and prospers in an impossible environment. There is no way that they should have survived the first few days after declaring independence. Yet they are stronger than ever.

Sure, we are doing the right thing by alliances with Japan and India, and hopefully closer relationships with South Korea. But we are also allied to the US and the UK. No other Asian power comes close to the joint US and UK forces, not even China.

Tell me what decisions have to be referred to the Crown? As far as I know, zero. We simply tell the Crown what we are going to do and go ahead. Even in WW2, when Australia and Britain were joined at the hip, Australia told Churchill that we were pulling troops back to defend Australia. It was not a request. Churchill was not at all happy, but he could do nothing.

A republic would be fine in theory. I see no need for it, no benefit to Australians generally and just an opportunity for politicians to create more jobs for the boys. Politicians would not dare to allow the punters to choose and punters are too smart to let politicians decide for them. That may change, but I don't see it in the foreseeable future.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gottservant
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,268
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,030.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I'm currently reading a book "How to Defend Australia" by Hugh White. He addressed the submarine issue briefly. It was published in 2019 before the submarine fracas with France hit the fan.

He wrote "Several countries, including France and America, build nuclear-powered submarines that would meet our needs... we could buy the French Barracuda design with its nuclear power plant ... There have been hints that this is what some people involved in the program had in mind all along....

(but if we don't build our own) ... our submarine capability would be hostage to strategic priorities in Washington or Paris."

He also pointed out that to effectively guard the archipelago to our north from enemy warships, we'd probably need about 24 submarines, of which only six would be on active duty at any one time.

I think Keating is right - twelve submarines (and it will probably take 20 years before we even get them) will be a pinprick against a major power like China.
The deal with the French was acceptable at the time but strategic priorities changed real quick. Keating may be smart, but his grasp of military matters is flawed and his thinking more 1980's. All we have to do is convince China that we are not worth the trouble of attacking. Nuclear subs are a part of that strategy.

The Barracuda subs are nuclear but relatively old tech. They need refueling far more often than the US or UK submarines. Who wants their submarine fleet tied up in France, waiting to be refueled according to French priorities, not necessarily ours? We already have good military relationships with US and UK armed forces.

The biggest peacetime problem with submarines is crewing them. It's not a lifestyle too many choose these days. Submariners used to be elite volunteers. No longer. Even with substantial extra pay, not enough people volunteer. Nuclear subs may well overcome that issue. They are vastly more comfortable and there is a deal of prestige attached to the job.

This proposed procurement is most unlike Australia. It is sensible, well thought out and takes a very long term view. Of course, any government in the future can step in and mess it up. That's the joy of democracy.
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,380
704
45
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
People are on the front lines - sea patrol, border patrol, police, ambulances and fireys - and they want to know their God is with them.

Jesus didn't do Herod any favours, or hide anything from Herod, when the nation of Israel was at stake.
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,380
704
45
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
?? Identifying "God with us" based on any sense of nationalism is... deeply flawed.

Flawed for us, or flawed for God?

It wouldn't have occurred to me that I had a choice, if I had not spoken up in favour of the nation?
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,006
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,176.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Flawed for us, or flawed for God?

What I mean is, from a theological point of view, nation-states are irrelevant. The reign of God is, as Christ said to Pilate, "not from this world."

It wouldn't have occurred to me that I had a choice, if I had not spoken up in favour of the nation?

As Christians we are called to express the reign of God even as we live as good citizens of our own nations. But recognising that the nations in which we live are temporary and provisional. We should seek their good for the sake of our neighbours, but not see the nation as an end in itself.
 
Upvote 0

Yaaten

Active Member
Sep 14, 2022
218
44
56
Victoria
✟18,616.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
But we have to start a conversation: how long are we going to secede to a foreign nation?

I don't want my country to become a failed, ridiculous "republic". I'm a monarchist through and through, and I'll never support having a president. There is no "conversation" to be had, because there is nothing to discuss, full stop!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Aussie Pete
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,268
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,030.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Hello and G'day,

All you wonderful Australians encourage me to keep going - I really appreciate your spirit and hope.

But we have to start a conversation: how long are we going to secede to a foreign nation?

Our culture is ours, it should not be someone else's, but by choice?

I'm talking about England: they landed here, but gave us no autonomy of our own!

I'm not going to chew you out if you have your own reasons, its just that I am a little tempted to know what they possibly could be - care to share?

The peace of Jesus be upon you and throughout your days.
Sure, let's have a president like Russia, China, African failed states, North Korea and so on. The titular head of state means nothing in reality. It's ceremonial. If Australia gets a head of state who has real power, then we risk ending up a dictatorship. if he/she has no real power, what's the point?

The world system is wonderful at superficial change. One suburb near me is a social basket case: high unemployment, domestic violence, drug abuse and gambling problems. The answer? Rename the suburb! That will solve everything! Except it won't.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Yaaten
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,268
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,030.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Personally, I am cynical enough to think that any system we put in place of the monarchy as head of state is likely to be no better, and probably worse.

@Bob Crowley makes an interesting point about choosing now which Asian power might be our best long term ally, but to be honest, I think for most Australians a move away from the Anglosphere as our base of identity is still unthinkable. Australians as a whole are very culturally insular.
Insular for a good reason. We don't need to be like Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia or the Philippines. That is not being racist. We can be allies with Asian countries, but that does not mean that we have adopt their culture.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Yaaten
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,268
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,030.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
You know what, I'm going to call you out:

Monarchism, is of the Devil.

That's a line in the sand.
So is every human institution. Satan is the god of this world. I prefer a monarch who has no real power to a dictator like Putin, Kim or Xi. Queen Elizabeth confessed Christ as Lord and Saviour. Putin and co have no faith and no conscience.
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,380
704
45
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
So is every human institution. Satan is the god of this world. I prefer a monarch who has no real power to a dictator like Putin, Kim or Xi. Queen Elizabeth confessed Christ as Lord and Saviour. Putin and co have no faith and no conscience.

Better the Devil you know, than the one that is committed the same as you are?
 
Upvote 0

Yaaten

Active Member
Sep 14, 2022
218
44
56
Victoria
✟18,616.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Monarchs today don't have to do the dirty work that politicians do. They're mainly window dressing these days; visible and traditional rallying points for their nation.
Yes, you're correct, which is yet one more point in their favour, one more reason for us to reject the idea of becoming a republic. The head of state should be above politics.
 
Upvote 0

Malleeboy

Active Member
Jul 31, 2021
149
44
55
Melbourne
✟46,843.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A Republic referendum needs a majority in a majority of states.
Australia has only passed 8 out of 44 referendums and has not passed one since 1977.
Of the 8 that have succeeded, 7 have been put forward during conservative (non labor) and 1 during Labor governments.
Only successful Labor one was 1946 to give aged and invalid pensions. (66 years ago)

A Republic is very unlikely to get up for some time, I think Canada or NZ will give up the monarchy before Australia does.

An opposed referenda almost always fails in Australia (I think all have failed, if the parliament puts out a formal no case, which is triggered if someone in parliament requests a no case; but I can't find the proof of that), and any Labor push would likely be opposed by the Coalition. It would have more of a chance, if moved by the Coalition (Liberals and Nationals parties form a grouping usually called the Coalition in Aus) but the Nationals (rural conservatives, think Texas Republicans) would not countenance that.

The other odd thing is that Australia is the only Commonwealth realm where each constitute part (ie state) is a monarchy in its own right.
Canadian provinces have Lt Gov, appointed by HM (His Majesty) on advice by Canadian PM not by Province premiers. NZ and other realms are unitary states. Australian state Governors are appointed directly by HM on advice by each state premier. If the Australian Commonwealth became a Republic each state would also have to remove its monarchy as well. A state could choose to maintain its monarchy (I'm looking at you Queensland) whilst the country was a republic. I think they would try to avoid that but constitutionally it could happen.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Malleeboy

Active Member
Jul 31, 2021
149
44
55
Melbourne
✟46,843.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And we're probably going to have a referendum on the Voice first, anyway.
Yes the Voice will come first.
I want to be generous and vote yes on that but am concerned what activists and activist judges will do with it.
Is it just ATSIC (which failed) reborn? Is it just going to be a Quango, where we pay large salaries for people to unconstructively berate everyone? Will it actually make the kind of difference we all want in aboriginal communities?
 
Upvote 0

MissRowy

Ms Snarky
Supporter
Oct 31, 2012
14,382
2,578
43
Western Sydney
✟250,182.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
AU-Labor
I really think the Voice thing is going to end up a dismal failure like some of the other projects that were designed to help the Aboriginal people. Remember "Sorry Day". What we really need is to let the Aboriginal people do their own thing without us butting in. They can survive just fine without us butting in and trying to tell them what to do. And yes I know I'm probably preaching to the converted here but I just studied a unit about Indigenous Cultures and I know that Australia has let the Aboriginal people down.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums