God Has No Meaning

Jonaitis · Sep 27, 2022

God is.

He does not need meaning, but imparts meaning to all that He makes. He is the goal of the creature, but for Himself, what is there to be achieved other than what He is?

He is empty of self-purpose, but because of that, He is a purpose-giver.

CMDRExorcist · Sep 27, 2022

God must possess meaning to give meaning. He cannot give what he does not have. And since there is nothing God cannot give, then God cannot be without meaning.

Jonaitis · Sep 27, 2022

CMDRExorcist said:
God must possess meaning to give meaning. He cannot give what he does not have. And since there is nothing God cannot give, then God cannot be without meaning.

If God possesses meaning, then He Himself is part of an even grander scheme than His own. He is the highest meaning, do we not agree?

Gregory Thompson · Sep 27, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God has no meaning, but imparts meaning to all that He creates. He is the only meaning of the creature, and not the other way around, and yet He is without meaning in and as Himself. He is what He is, and to add or subtract anything more or less is reducing Him to the level of a creature. He does not seek anything, but is that which is sought for. He is empty of purpose, for He is His own fulfillment, being Himself. Yet, He is the purpose of everything. Only God matters, yet to God, nothing ultimately matters, being the ultimate reason leaves no reason in Himself.

Sounds pretty depressing.

but I could just be reading between the lines.

Jonaitis · Sep 27, 2022

Michael Collum said:
Sounds pretty depressing.

but I could just be reading between the lines.

I think you are just reading between the lines. God cannot be depressed about Himself.

Gregory Thompson · Sep 27, 2022

Jonaitis said:
I think you are just reading between the lines. God cannot be depressed about Himself.

I was thinking maybe you're depressed, or I'm just over joyful.

Jonaitis · Sep 27, 2022

Michael Collum said:
I was thinking maybe you're depressed, or I'm just over joyful.

It may be that you're over joyful. I have no feelings of joy or sorrow right now, just indifference.

Blade · Sep 27, 2022

To only this I fully agree "God has no meaning". That word does not even touch what who He is.

Jonaitis · Sep 27, 2022

Blade said:
To only this I fully agree "God has no meaning". That word does not even touch what who He is.

It inspires absolute wonder and awe for who God is! He is what He is. He does not need meaning.

BobRyan · Sep 27, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God has no meaning, but imparts meaning to all that He creates. He is the only meaning of the creature, and not the other way around, and yet He is without meaning in and as Himself. He is what He is, and to add or subtract anything more or less is reducing Him to the level of a creature. He does not seek anything, but is that which is sought for. He is empty of purpose, for He is His own fulfillment, being Himself. Yet, He is the purpose of everything. Only God matters, yet to God, nothing ultimately matters, being the ultimate reason leaves no reason in Himself.

Or --

God is the ultimate "meaning" and has the "ultimate purpose" to which all other purposes submit.

That which has ultimate meaning - can give meaning.

Jonaitis · Sep 27, 2022

BobRyan said:
Or --

God is the ultimate "meaning" and has the "ultimate purpose" to which all other purposes submit.

That which has ultimate meaning - can give meaning.

He is the "ultimate meaning" in our minds, because we have meaning from Him. But, for Himself, there is no need for meaning and purpose other than what He is. He truly gains nothing, because He truly achieves nothing.

Jamdoc · Sep 27, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God has no meaning, but imparts meaning to all that He creates. He is the only meaning of the creature, and not the other way around, and yet He is without meaning in and as Himself. He is what He is, and to add or subtract anything more or less is reducing Him to the level of a creature. He does not seek anything, but is that which is sought for. He is empty of purpose, for He is His own fulfillment, being Himself. Yet, He is the purpose of everything. Only God matters, yet to God, nothing ultimately matters, being the ultimate reason leaves no reason in Himself.

What an impersonal God...
that's not my God.

Jonaitis · Sep 27, 2022

Jamdoc said:
What an impersonal God...
that's not my God.

What is your God's meaning, then?

Jamdoc · Sep 27, 2022

Jonaitis said:
What is your God's meaning, then?

to create, to make something out of nothing and bring order and purpose to it, to love it, to be loved by it, and to redeem it.

BobRyan · Sep 27, 2022

Jonaitis said:
He truly gains nothing, because He truly achieves nothing.

Not according to God -

God claims He has done quite a lot in scripture.

He also complains that things are not working right at times for example Isaiah 5:4 he complains that he did everything right and still got a bad result - then God asks "What MORE was there to do that I have not already done?"

The Liturgist · Sep 27, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God is.

He does not need meaning, but imparts meaning to all that He makes. He is the goal of the creature, but for Himself, what is there to be achieved other than what He is?

He is empty of self-purpose, but because of that, He is a purpose-giver.

What you are saying is merely a somewhat awkwardly stated special case of the theological principle that, to paraphrase St. Basil the Great, God is the height of perfection of all qualities and virtues in their ultimate fullness. God, as is often asserted, does not have attributes, like meaning, but rather is meaning itself. God does not have the attribute of truth, rather, God is truth. God does not have the attribute of virtue, but rather, God is virtue. And loving-kindness is not an attribute of God but likewise fundamental to Him, for God is love.

The Liturgist · Sep 27, 2022

CMDRExorcist said:
God must possess meaning to give meaning. He cannot give what he does not have. And since there is nothing God cannot give, then God cannot be without meaning.

Indeed, but he does not possess meaning as an attribute but rather is meaning.

Jonaitis said:
If God possesses meaning, then He Himself is part of an even grander scheme than His own. He is the highest meaning, do we not agree?

No, since God is Himself the fullness of purpose and meaning, since all true meaning in the universe resolves to God.

The Liturgist · Sep 27, 2022

BobRyan said:
Or --

God is the ultimate "meaning" and has the "ultimate purpose" to which all other purposes submit.

That which has ultimate meaning - can give meaning.

Indeed, this is pretty close and I congratulate you for some genuinely advanced theoria. Its remarkable how much we have in common aside from our well-known and highly specific differences in opinion.

The Liturgist · Sep 27, 2022

Jonaitis said:
It may be that you're over joyful. I have no feelings of joy or sorrow right now, just indifference.

Forgive me, but that could be a warning sign in terms of doing this kind of divine reflection.

Jonaitis · Sep 28, 2022

The Liturgist said:
Forgive me, but that could be a warning sign in terms of doing this kind of divine reflection.

Explain.

God Has No Meaning

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