How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
You seem to be indicating here that, the preamble that Yahshua, Ha'Mashiach has come in the flesh, is not the only qualification for testing the spirits.

You seems to be indicating here that there are still false prophets. Do you not believe that this verse is not as valid today, as in the day that it was written?

The idea behind the verse is valid today. The specific test doesn't look like it will produce the right results today.

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
3 questions:

1.) Do you not believe that spirits speak through men?

2.) Do you not believe that all men who proclaim that Yahshua, Ha'Mashiach has come in the flesh, are led by the Ruach Ha'Kodesh in all of their words, and by no "other" spirits?

3.) How do you test their words?

1) yes, I believe spirits speak through men.

2) no, I don't believe that.

3) there's the revelation of God's qualities in creation, the Bible, the Spirit speaking to my heart, the history of the Spirit speaking to the church. Possibly some more I can't think of right off.

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

Just well this is on my mind, 1 Corinthians 12 gives us a different test:
Does the person say that Jesus is Lord.

It's not the same as the 1 John 4 test, but I can see some overlap.

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
(CLV) Gn 3:14
Then Yahweh Elohim said to the serpent: Because you have done this, Cursed shall you be away from every domestic beast And from every animal of the field! On your torso shall you crawl, And soil shall you eat all the days of your life.

(CLV) Gn 3:15
And I shall set enmity between you and the woman And between your seed and her Seed. He shall hurt you in the head, And you shall hurt Him in the heel.

(CLV) Gn 3:16
And to the woman He said: I shall increase, yea increase your grief And the groanings of your pregnancy. In grief shall you bear children; Yet by your husband is your restoration. And he shall rule over you.

(CLV) Gn 3:17
And to Adam He said: Because you hearkened to your wife's voice and ate from the only tree that I instructed you, saying you must not eat from it, Cursed is the ground ion your account; In grief shall you eat of it all the days of your life.

Surely you don't construe from that then if a woman is led by the Spirit then she will have pain free child delivery.

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
(CLV) Gn 3:14
Then Yahweh Elohim said to the serpent: Because you have done this, Cursed shall you be away from every domestic beast And from every animal of the field! On your torso shall you crawl, And soil shall you eat all the days of your life.

(CLV) Gn 3:15
And I shall set enmity between you and the woman And between your seed and her Seed. He shall hurt you in the head, And you shall hurt Him in the heel.

(CLV) Gn 3:16
And to the woman He said: I shall increase, yea increase your grief And the groanings of your pregnancy. In grief shall you bear children; Yet by your husband is your restoration. And he shall rule over you.

(CLV) Gn 3:17
And to Adam He said: Because you hearkened to your wife's voice and ate from the only tree that I instructed you, saying you must not eat from it, Cursed is the ground ion your account; In grief shall you eat of it all the days of your life.

We would also have the huge question of why then anyone would want to be under the law. But there were some people in Galatia who did.

Unless they were insane, the explanation that I see is that under the law doesn't mean under the curse of the law.

HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

Leaf473 said:
3) there's the revelation of God's qualities in creation, the Bible,

Now we're getting somewhere.

If it speaks in opposition to YHWH's word; I reject it.

HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Surely you don't construe from that then if a woman is led by the Spirit then she will have pain free child delivery.

I wouldn't say that to a laboring woman crying out in pain. It probably wouldn't end well. I wouldn't have said that to Yahshua; as he was sweating blood, knowing the pain that awaited him.

Those verses speak of the curses of transgression of YHWH's instructions.

HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

Leaf473 said:
We would also have the huge question of why then anyone would want to be under the law. But there were some people in Galatia who did.

Unless they were insane, the explanation that I see is that under the law doesn't mean under the curse of the law.

People choose to be under the law every day; when they choose their own desires over obedience YHWH's Torah.

The Torah is perfect. Obedience to the Torah brings blessings. Disobedience to the Torah brings curses.

HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Just well this is on my mind, 1 Corinthians 12 gives us a different test:

(CLV) 1Co 12:2
You are aware that when you were of the nations (Goyim, Gentiles) , you were led away to the voiceless idols, as ever you were led.

Not anymore.

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
Now we're getting somewhere.

If it speaks in opposition to YHWH's word; I reject it.

Amen. I would just add that sometimes the Holy Spirit may speak in opposition to our current understanding of the Bible.

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
I wouldn't say that to a laboring woman crying out in pain. It probably wouldn't end well. I wouldn't have said that to Yahshua; as he was sweating blood, knowing the pain that awaited him.

Those verses speak of the curses of transgression of YHWH's instructions.

Thus only an insane person would want that.

Some people in Galatia wanted to be under the law.

Thus, under the law probably doesn't mean what you are describing imo.

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
People choose to be under the law every day; when they choose their own desires over obedience YHWH's Torah.

The Torah is perfect. Obedience to the Torah brings blessings. Disobedience to the Torah brings curses.

Well, but I wasn't asking about choosing, but wanting (θέλοντες). Why would anyone want what you are describing?

HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Well, I believe I was using Under the law in the same sense that Paul says that Jesus was born under the law. And that there were certain people in Galatia who wanted to be under the law. He goes on to say that if we are led by the spirit we are not under the law.

Did you read that chapter from the beginning?
We find a very telling clue as to what Paul is talking about.

(CLV) Ga 4:3
Thus we also, when we were minors, were (past tense) enslaved under the elements of the world.

(CLV) Ga 4:4
Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law,

(CLV) Ga 4:5
that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we may be getting the place of a son.

Context is key.

Now regarding the Ruach Ha'Kodesh, the Ruach Ha'Kodesh guides us into all of YHWH's word.

(CLV) Jn 16:13
Yet whenever that may be coming—the spirit of truth—it will be guiding you into all the truth, for it will not be speaking from itself, but whatsoever it should be hearing will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you.

(CLV) Ps 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian (This means eternal.).

(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Paul understood this.

(CLV) Ro 2:20
a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.

Leaf473 said:
Amen. I would just add that sometimes the Holy Spirit may speak in opposition to our current understanding of the Bible.

HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Well, but I wasn't asking about choosing, but wanting (θέλοντες). Why would anyone want what you are describing?

Some have elevated themselves above YHWH's throne. They think that they know better than he. They have created idols that they worship over him, the biggest idol being themselves.

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
Did you read that chapter from the beginning?
We find a very telling clue as to what Paul is talking about.

(CLV) Ga 4:3
Thus we also, when we were minors, were (past tense) enslaved under the elements of the world.

(CLV) Ga 4:4
Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law,

(CLV) Ga 4:5
that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we may be getting the place of a son.

Context is key.

Now regarding the Ruach Ha'Kodesh, the Ruach Ha'Kodesh guides us into all of YHWH's word.

(CLV) Jn 16:13
Yet whenever that may be coming—the spirit of truth—it will be guiding you into all the truth, for it will not be speaking from itself, but whatsoever it should be hearing will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you.

(CLV) Ps 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian (This means eternal.).

(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Paul understood this.

(CLV) Ro 2:20
a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.

Yes, I read the chapter, the whole book, from the beginning. I have no idea why you say the context doesn't support what I was saying. It looks to me like it does.

Yes, the πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας guides us into all truth, including things that Jesus hadn't yet said. So that would include the Torah, but much more beyond it.

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
Some have elevated themselves above YHWH's throne. They think that they know better than he. They have created idols that they worship over him, the biggest idol being themselves.

That's all true, but it doesn't explain why anyone would wish to be under the curses of the law.

People could wish for stuff like the passing pleasures of sin, sure. But not the curses that come with it.

Guojing · Sep 27, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Okay... Following that train of thought, then, the olive tree, including the root, would be the true Israel.

So, "Jews and gentiles who believe and willing to follow the covenant of Law", are they different from "believers" as used in the New Testament?

The Body of Christ has salvation the moment they believe in the gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Those saved thru Israel have to endure to the end to receive their salvation (Matthew 24:13, 1 Peter 1:9, Acts 3:19-21)

Leaf473 · Sep 28, 2022

Guojing said:
The Body of Christ has salvation the moment they believe in the gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Those saved thru Israel have to endure to the end to receive their salvation (Matthew 24:13, 1 Peter 1:9, Acts 3:19-21)

So, is that a Yes?

Guojing · Sep 28, 2022

Leaf473 said:
So, is that a Yes?

There are many differences, but yes, this is one significant difference.

Leaf473 · Sep 29, 2022

Guojing said:
There are many differences, but yes, this is one significant difference.

Okay, then if I'm remembering our discussion right,
All believers, as the term is used in the New Testament, are in the body of Christ. The true Israel is something different.

How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

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