Free Will

Neogaia777 · Sep 26, 2022

renniks said:
Because there are always multiple reasons and multiple choices among the reasons. A reason isn't a cause.

The reason(s) its/themselves were caused, and then those previous causes/reasons were caused, and so on and so forth, etc.

Going way, way back, etc.

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Sep 26, 2022

renniks said:
So? No one figures out all the factors that would go into the flip,, so it's random to them.

God knows, and is probably the One who originally caused it, etc.

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Sep 26, 2022

renniks said:
What is funny about thinking we have free will?

What's funny about it is all the reasons you want to believe in it (free will) because I used to have the very same reasons, etc.

And your infantile like example(s) is/was/are pretty funny also, because it shows your infantile like understanding of it, which I thought was pretty funny as well, etc.

God Bless!

Bradskii · Sep 26, 2022

renniks said:
Because there are always multiple reasons and multiple choices among the reasons. A reason isn't a cause.

If you make a choice and I ask you what caused you to make it, you'll give me a reason. I'm really at a loss to understand why you don't understand.

SelfSim · Sep 26, 2022

Bradskii said:
No. If it's random then there is effectively no input. It's akin to a coin toss or spinning a roulette wheel: If it lands on red I'll have chocolate. If it lands on black I'll have vanilla. The choice is made for you. It's the very opposite of making a conscious decision.

So with that out of the way, the only other type of choice is one made for a reason. Or multiple reasons. And if you make a decision based on those reasons and the tape is rerun and you have exactly the same situation with exactly the same reasons, then you need to tell me what there could be that would cause a different decision.

There is no reason .. and random is not the only other option. There is evidence that the brain continually operates at the edge of criticality. It could easily turn that free will might just be a particular type of phase transition occuring upon approach to some criticality point. We wouldn't be aware of this and hence we wouldn't necessarily be aware of there being conscious or unconscious reasons(?) If so, then it doesn't have to be random or deterministic. Don't know .. therefore can't rule it out.

Neogaia777 · Sep 26, 2022

SelfSim said:
There is no reason .. and random is not the only other option. There is evidence that the brain continually operates at the edge of criticality. It could easily turn that free will might just be a particular type of phase transition occuring upon approach to some criticality point. We wouldn't be aware of this and hence we wouldn't necessarily be aware of there being conscious or unconscious reasons(?) If so, then it doesn't have to be random or deterministic. Don't know .. therefore can't rule it out.

Wrong.

There always is/was a reason that was caused, and then the previous cause was a reason that was also caused, etc, etc, etc, going way, way back, etc...

Again, give me only just one single example to work with, and I will show you, etc...

You should already be able to figure it out yourself though, and I think you already have, but just don't want to admit it to yourself, just like I used to not want to admit it to myself, for "reasons" very similar to what yours are right now, at one point in time, etc...

And what you have to realize also, is that those reasons that I just right now mentioned, etc, your reasons for not wanting to see it, or admit it to yourself, etc, are also already were/have been "caused" also, etc, and until you completely abandon them, you have no hope of escaping the deterministic cycle/line/trap that right now still currently has us all, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Sep 26, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
Wrong.

There always is/was a reason that was caused, and then the previous cause was a reason that was also caused, etc, etc, etc, going way, way back, etc...

Again, give me only just one single example to work with, and I will show you, etc...

You should already be able to figure it out yourself though, and I think you already have, but just don't want to admit it to yourself, just like I used to not want to admit it to myself, for "reasons" very similar to what yours are right now, at one point in time, etc...

God Bless!

@SelfSim

Oh and the (only) choice is between random or deterministic also, unless you can give us a real world practical example that would show us otherwise, etc.

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Sep 26, 2022

And where there is a reason and a cause, and/or a reason or a cause, etc, and there always is, etc, then it also equates to having already been arranged/prearranged and/or predicted also, etc...

And I will leave you all to figure out who and by what, or who, etc...

God Bless!

Bradskii · Sep 26, 2022

SelfSim said:
It could easily turn that free will might just be a particular type of phase transition occuring upon approach to some criticality point.

That sounds like more deepity to me. If it makes sense then it's lost on me.

SelfSim · Sep 26, 2022

Bradskii said:
That sounds like more deepity to me. If it makes sense then it's lost on me.

So there are several major topics starting with linear and non linear systems, chaos, complexity and universality, which all seem to be apparently missing in any mere propositional logic (philosophical) viewpoint.
I know what I've posted makes sense when viewed from those topic areas.
Where do we go from here?

SelfSim · Sep 26, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
Wrong.

Not.

Neogaia777 · Sep 26, 2022

SelfSim said:
Where do we go from here?

How about that real world practical example we're still waiting on...?

Nothing else matters, and is inconsequential (doesn't matter and doesn't affect anything so far) if you can't at least give us that.

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Sep 27, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
How about that real world practical example we're still waiting on...?

Nothing else matters, and is inconsequential (doesn't matter and doesn't affect anything so far) if you can't at least give us that.

God Bless!

@SelfSim

I live in the real world, and not in some philosophers or mathematicians fantasy, so give us a very practical, real world example, that disproves determinism or proves free will, etc.

Because if you can't do that, then it is, well, for one; it's admitting you can't, etc, and then for another, it is also only in my mind just continuing to prove us only more and more right thus far, etc.

God Bless!

durangodawood · Sep 27, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
...Or perhaps you can give me a reason of anything you or I do (or don't do) that was not, or is not caused, ever at all ever, etc?

Please, give us an example, etc?
I am waiting to prove you wrong, etc.

God Bless!

I decided to have blueberries with my toast this morning rather than raspberries.

Looking forward to the proof that this wasnt a free will choice.

renniks · Sep 27, 2022

Bradskii said:
If you make a choice and I ask you what caused you to make it, you'll give me a reason. I'm really at a loss to understand why you don't understand.

Because there might be 50,000 reasons, but they do not cause my decision. I do.

renniks · Sep 27, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
What's funny about it is all the reasons you want to believe in it (free will) because I used to have the very same reasons, etc.

And your infantile like example(s) is/was/are pretty funny also, because it shows your infantile like understanding of it, which I thought was pretty funny as well, etc.

God Bless!

Well that's insulting.

John Owen · Sep 27, 2022

doubtingmerle said:
I am going to spin this off as another thread, because this topic might have a mind of its own.

Regarding free will, it is molecules that do the thinking.

That statement makes no sense. Molecules have no independent existence.

renniks · Sep 27, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
The reason(s) its/themselves were caused, and then those previous causes/reasons were caused, and so on and so forth, etc.

Going way, way back, etc.

God Bless!

Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)

What reasons would you have for choosing life? What reasons would you have for choosing death?
Your reasons are based on influences.
But those influences do not cause you to make your decision. That's your choice alone. Nobody but you causes it.

Neogaia777 · Sep 27, 2022

renniks said:
Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)

What reasons would you have for choosing life? What reasons would you have for choosing death?
Your reasons are based on influences.
But those influences do not cause you to make your decision. That's your choice alone. Nobody but you causes it.

Those were given/said by God the Spirit.

See post #148 and the conversation(s) that followed it, etc.

Also maybe #140 before it maybe, etc.

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Sep 27, 2022

durangodawood said:
I decided to have blueberries with my toast this morning rather than raspberries.

Looking forward to the proof that this wasnt a free will choice.

You had a reason, or something caused you, or provoked you, or made you, or caused you, or "whatever", etc, to change or alter or make that decision, etc.

And it could have been any number of things, the very least of which was your choosing it completely randomly, or of your own supposed free will, or 100% completely arbitrarily, etc.

And then those previous reasons also had causes, and so on and so forth, etc, and you did not choose it, or change it, or alter it ever at all, 100% completely arbitrarily, etc.

And the "reason" I am not giving specifics right now, is because there are just way "too many", etc, but they all played a part in your choosing, etc.

And all of these things can all be fully known, or can all be calculated/laid out mathematically, etc.

God Bless!

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