15 years added to Hezekiah's life and its problems for foreknowledge and open theism

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
361
61
Colorado Springs
✟98,682.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The same actions that harden one person's heart will soften another person's heart. We do not want God to stop His actions. It is up to the individual in how he/she accepts God's actions.
That's a good way to say it. We see that in the story of pharaoh. God provided some signs to Moses that were for the Israelites (read Ex 4), like the staff to snake trick, that He knew pharaoh's priests could duplicate. His purpose in hardening pharaoh was clearly stated:
Exodus 3:19 (KJV) And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

Exodus 6:1 (KJV) Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,158
1,805
✟794,647.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's a good way to say it. We see that in the story of pharaoh. God provided some signs to Moses that were for the Israelites (read Ex 4), like the staff to snake trick, that He knew pharaoh's priests could duplicate. His purpose in hardening pharaoh was clearly stated:
Exodus 3:19 (KJV) And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

Exodus 6:1 (KJV) Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land.
I think most if not all the Egyptians were ready and wanting the Jews out of their land well before Pharaoh reacted.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Derf
Upvote 0

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
361
61
Colorado Springs
✟98,682.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God adds 15 years to Hezekiah's life. He changes His mind - a problem for foreknowledge and adds precisely 15 years, a problem for open theism. The article details the problem and proposes how kenotic openness might work for this case.

15 years added to Hezekiah's life and its problems for foreknowledge and open theism : cruciformity

How do you square God changing His mind and adding 15 years to Hezekiah's life and His foreknowledge about Hezekiah's death?
Re. The problem for open theism, I don't see why there is one. If God decided to end Hezekiah's life, then decided to wait 15 years to end his life, He would know how long the life extension would be. One way God foreknows stuff is because He plans it and no one can keep Him from accomplishing His plans.
Isaiah 46:10 (KJV) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

That passage is often used by settled theists to say God knows the future exhaustively, but that would require God to be determining every act, including how each person will sin.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
I have a friend that says the same thing, but he goes on to say it's because of "science."

I think, though I'm not sure how to verify it, that part of the problem is that they don't want to give up their sin, and part is that they want something more complicated rather than just believing in Christ.

Another friend says he knows he would have to become a missionary if he still believed. He claims a profession of faith in his past.

There's a few hitching points that seem common for people and it's not always "they love their sin and don't want to let it go"
Sometimes it's because there so much evidence that the earth is much older than what Christians proclaim it to be, I struggle with this myself, and don't buy the "well God made it look billions of years old even though it's only 6000 years old" why? to trick people? Is that what God's about? trying to deceive people from believing His own account? Is that who our God is? Someone who's just deceiving people into hell?

So .. how do we reconcile, some people choose to do it by allegorizing Genesis. Me I think Proverbs 25:2 .. that is, God has not told us everything if He thinks we didn't need to know it, and that men will search out some answers themselves, though not have a complete picture of what actually happened until God reveals it. But here's the thing. God will destroy the world, and remake it, and in the past, God destroyed the world with a flood, and then repopulated it.
There's evidence of 5 mass extinction events in the past. Who's to say God did not create and destroy the world multiple times in the past and simply has not revealed it to us? It would not be relevant to Moses to know this information, it's not until we dug up fossil records that we'd have any reason to say "there's more going on here than what we've been told"

another hitching point is the types of things that God has said is sin, like eating pork, or wearing mixed fabrics, or, all the way down to what are "thought crimes" like coveting and lust and anger. Comedian Chris Rock once said "I refuse to believe that on judgement day, my diet is going to come into question". There is somewhat of a point to some of that as well. There's no conviction of conscience for eating any particular food, and eating certain foods was not part of the moral laws that Jesus reiterated, the things that WILL convict a person's conscience, like stealing or lying or dishonoring your parents or murdering, everyone knows doing those things is wrong.

But nobody eats a pork chop and thinks "I shouldn't have done that, I've grievously sinned" unless they've been taught that.
and the point is.. the dietary laws were to separate Israel from the Gentiles, but once Jesus had fulfilled His work on the cross.. that separation was not necessary anymore, the disciples didn't burden the gentiles with the ritual laws, they only told gentiles to avoid a couple things like fornication and blood, and let conscience determine the rest, for obeying the moral law.

But because those ritual laws are still associated with the God of Abraham, people don't want to believe in such a nitpicky God that is judging your diet and whether you're wearing mixed fabrics.

So yeah you pair that up, not being willing to obey the ritual laws that seem just nitpicky that were never meant to save anyone in the first place, and scientific evidence, and flat earther Christians don't help in that aspect...
and it becomes very difficult for people to believe, and they throw the baby out with the bathwater in the process. Even if the most important aspects, that you were created by a loving creator, who you sinned against but He loves you so much that He died to take your place in punishment and redeem you... something that even my sister says sounds wonderful and she wishes she could believe, those hitches dismantle the whole thing for her.
 
Upvote 0

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
361
61
Colorado Springs
✟98,682.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There's a few hitching points that seem common for people and it's not always "they love their sin and don't want to let it go"
Sometimes it's because there so much evidence that the earth is much older than what Christians proclaim it to be, I struggle with this myself, and don't buy the "well God made it look billions of years old even though it's only 6000 years old" why? to trick people? Is that what God's about? trying to deceive people from believing His own account? Is that who our God is? Someone who's just deceiving people into hell?

So .. how do we reconcile, some people choose to do it by allegorizing Genesis. Me I think Proverbs 25:2 .. that is, God has not told us everything if He thinks we didn't need to know it, and that men will search out some answers themselves, though not have a complete picture of what actually happened until God reveals it. But here's the thing. God will destroy the world, and remake it, and in the past, God destroyed the world with a flood, and then repopulated it.
There's evidence of 5 mass extinction events in the past. Who's to say God did not create and destroy the world multiple times in the past and simply has not revealed it to us? It would not be relevant to Moses to know this information, it's not until we dug up fossil records that we'd have any reason to say "there's more going on here than what we've been told"

another hitching point is the types of things that God has said is sin, like eating pork, or wearing mixed fabrics, or, all the way down to what are "thought crimes" like coveting and lust and anger. Comedian Chris Rock once said "I refuse to believe that on judgement day, my diet is going to come into question". There is somewhat of a point to some of that as well. There's no conviction of conscience for eating any particular food, and eating certain foods was not part of the moral laws that Jesus reiterated, the things that WILL convict a person's conscience, like stealing or lying or dishonoring your parents or murdering, everyone knows doing those things is wrong.

But nobody eats a pork chop and thinks "I shouldn't have done that, I've grievously sinned" unless they've been taught that.
and the point is.. the dietary laws were to separate Israel from the Gentiles, but once Jesus had fulfilled His work on the cross.. that separation was not necessary anymore, the disciples didn't burden the gentiles with the ritual laws, they only told gentiles to avoid a couple things like fornication and blood, and let conscience determine the rest, for obeying the moral law.

But because those ritual laws are still associated with the God of Abraham, people don't want to believe in such a nitpicky God that is judging your diet and whether you're wearing mixed fabrics.

So yeah you pair that up, not being willing to obey the ritual laws that seem just nitpicky that were never meant to save anyone in the first place, and scientific evidence, and flat earther Christians don't help in that aspect...
and it becomes very difficult for people to believe, and they throw the baby out with the bathwater in the process. Even if the most important aspects, that you were created by a loving creator, who you sinned against but He loves you so much that He died to take your place in punishment and redeem you... something that even my sister says sounds wonderful and she wishes she could believe, those hitches dismantle the whole thing for her.
If God told you not to eat a particular food, or you will die, would you eat it or not eat it?

Adam and Eve ate it, and the results were disastrous for mankind--everybody now dies. But now we have a second chance, as long as we're willing to do what God said, only believe that Christ's death and resurrection means that we will also rise from the dead by His power.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
If God told you not to eat a particular food, or you will die, would you eat it or not eat it?

Adam and Eve ate it, and the results were disastrous for mankind--everybody now dies. But now we have a second chance, as long as we're willing to do what God said, only believe that Christ's death and resurrection means that we will also rise from the dead by His power.

a little bit different than eating pork.
after the flood God gave man all creatures to eat as meat.
then for Israel, for the Old Covenant, God made restrictions to separate Israel from the Gentiles
then after Jesus ascended, God made all beasts clean again, and Peter didn't burden the Gentiles with such laws.

But those laws are still connected with God, and so.. some people balk at that.

Jesus hinged all law on 2 commandments, and even Jesus spoke against some of the nitpickiness that the Jews had adhered to, such as healing on the Sabbath.
 
Upvote 0

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
361
61
Colorado Springs
✟98,682.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
a little bit different than eating pork.
after the flood God gave man all creatures to eat as meat.
then for Israel, for the Old Covenant, God made restrictions to separate Israel from the Gentiles
then after Jesus ascended, God made all beasts clean again, and Peter didn't burden the Gentiles with such laws.

But those laws are still connected with God, and so.. some people balk at that.

Jesus hinged all law on 2 commandments, and even Jesus spoke against some of the nitpickiness that the Jews had adhered to, such as healing on the Sabbath.
But He didn't equate their nitpickiness with God. He said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." And
[Jhn 14:15 KJV] 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[1Jo 5:2-3 KJV] 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
[2Jo 1:6 KJV] 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

God is more than able to determine what's best for us for a particular time. In the Garden, it was just the one commandment. Now it is two. But what happens when we are in his kingdom and there's no sinful flesh to keep us from doing His commands? Will we be willing to do them? To say, as my friend and your sister said, "I just can't believe," is a statement not of inability but of unwillingness.

Have you heard the story of Charles Templeton? He was a partner of Billy Graham early on. They were both preaching God's word. Charles Templeton eventually walked away from his faith, saying, "I can't believe that anymore. I wish I could, but I can't." And it was after he started hearing about the theory of evolution and the long ages of the earth purportedly "proven". See an article about him here: A Skeptic Reflects upon Jesus Christ
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
But He didn't equate their nitpickiness with God. He said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." And
[Jhn 14:15 KJV] 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[1Jo 5:2-3 KJV] 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
[2Jo 1:6 KJV] 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

God is more than able to determine what's best for us for a particular time. In the Garden, it was just the one commandment. Now it is two. But what happens when we are in his kingdom and there's no sinful flesh to keep us from doing His commands? Will we be willing to do them? To say, as my friend and your sister said, "I just can't believe," is a statement not of inability but of unwillingness.

Have you heard the story of Charles Templeton? He was a partner of Billy Graham early on. They were both preaching God's word. Charles Templeton eventually walked away from his faith, saying, "I can't believe that anymore. I wish I could, but I can't." And it was after he started hearing about the theory of evolution and the long ages of the earth purportedly "proven". See an article about him here: A Skeptic Reflects upon Jesus Christ

See that's the thing, sometimes it's not an unwillingness but truly an inability.

If everything around you says "earth is old and processes have been happening for billions of years" but a book says "earth is young and was created in 6 days", it is natural to doubt the book and say "prove it"
But faith isn't based on proof.
and that's the issue.
if you try to "will" yourself into believing something that you don't actually believe? it doesn't work, and "God made it look older to trick people" just does not fly with what we know of God's character.
 
Upvote 0

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
361
61
Colorado Springs
✟98,682.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
See that's the thing, sometimes it's not an unwillingness but truly an inability.

If everything around you says "earth is old and processes have been happening for billions of years" but a book says "earth is young and was created in 6 days", it is natural to doubt the book and say "prove it"
But faith isn't based on proof.
and that's the issue.
if you try to "will" yourself into believing something that you don't actually believe? it doesn't work, and "God made it look older to trick people" just does not fly with what we know of God's character.
Faith IS based on proof. But we don't get to determine the standard of proof.
That's why there are multiple gospel accounts. That's why Jesus said "Blessed are those who believe without seeing" to Thomas, but Paul said "How shall they believe without a preacher?" You can't require the Invisible God to appear to satisfy your standard of proof, but God has provided His revelation of Himself in the testimony of two or more witnesses.
Faith is about conviction based on evidence: Heb. 11:1.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Faith IS based on proof. But we don't get to determine the standard of proof.
That's why there are multiple gospel accounts. That's why Jesus said "Blessed are those who believe without seeing" to Thomas, but Paul said "How shall they believe without a preacher?" You can't require the Invisible God to appear to satisfy your standard of proof, but God has provided His revelation of Himself in the testimony of two or more witnesses.
Faith is about conviction based on evidence: Heb. 11:1.

Examine this from the perspective of a skeptic, an unbeliever.
They will not consider the bible proof.
Because there are a lot of holy books that claim to be the truth.

If you've grown up in a Christian household so that has been what has been taught to you, you're more likely to accept it and deny things like evidence of the world being millions or billions of years old evolution etc.

But if you were brought up in a secular household, and what you've been taught is old earth, and evolution, you're not going to consider a thousands of year old book, written before there were any scientific methods to determine anything.. any standard of proof.

In that case, it actually takes something supernatural to receive faith, to see the bible as anything but a religious book like all other religious books written by ancient men.

Think about Matthew 16, when Peter makes his profession of faith that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus says that flesh has not revealed that to him. There were a lot of people who saw the same works Peter did, and still didn't believe.
One of them was named Judas Iscariot.
 
Upvote 0

NotreDame

Domer
Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,561
2,493
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟505,627.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And let's say you are going to die on your 50th birthday, and God sends a prophet to tell you that, then sends the same prophet to tell you you will survive to 65, only one of those can be true to someone with perfect foreknowledge. He either knows perfectly that you will die at 50, or He knows perfectly you will die at 65. Or, His knowledge changes when the circumstances change.

Maybe your X or Y is false. There’s another option, He has perfect foreknowledge of either possibility based upon whethe He acts to intervene and add 15 years. He can perfect foreknowledge of contingent circumstances where the contingency is based upon what He does or refrains from doing.

If God has perfect foreknowledge of what we will do, and some of what we will do s based on what God does for us, perhaps even adding 15 years to our lives, then God must have perfect foreknowledge of what He will do, too. If God knows He will "add" 15 years, and He tells you You will die in the next few days, then God is lying.

No, this logic doesn’t follow. The error is your treatment of God has perfect foreknowledge of what He will do, what He may or can do in our lives, what we may do or not do contingent upon what God does or doesn’t do, and perfect foreknowledge of what we will do. They aren’t the same.

So, for example, Jonah and Nineveh. Bible Gateway passage: Jonah 3 - New American Standard Bible

God intended to destroy Nineveh. God then changed his mind. God may have had perfect foreknowledge of what would transpire if he destroyed Nineveh. God would also have perfect foreknowledge of what would happen if He didn’t destroy Nineveh. This includes the ripple effects upon the rest of history by either choice.
With Nineveh, God can have perfect foreknowledge of what person X living in Nineveh will/would go on to do if He didn’t destroy Nineveh, and all the potential ripple effects/different ripple effects upon history by X’s continued existence.

God has perfect foreknowledge of the ripple effects of X not around past the point He destroys Nineveh.

This can be applied to others in Nineveh, the city, and it’s wider ripple effects upon history whether Nineveh exists or is destroyed.

So, it isn’t necessarily true God must have perfect foreknowledge of what He will do in relation to us.

And not having such perfect foreknowledge of what He will do in relation to us doesn’t render God a liar.

Having an intention to do perform some action and communicating such an intention, and it is a sincere intention, doesn’t render one a liar upon changing one’s mind.

A applicant may have every intention to attend Notre Dame law school. They apply. They are accepted. They pay a fee to reserve their seat. The applicant is intent to attend ND. They communicate to the family they will attend ND.

Latet, they change their mind and attend Indiana University of Law.

Did the person lie and is the person a liar when they communicated they would attend ND? No. The same is true of God in relation to Hezekiah.

So, it doesn’t follow God lied or is a liar as you claim.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,884
3,525
✟320,712.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
God adds 15 years to Hezekiah's life. He changes His mind - a problem for foreknowledge and adds precisely 15 years, a problem for open theism. The article details the problem and proposes how kenotic openness might work for this case.

15 years added to Hezekiah's life and its problems for foreknowledge and open theism : cruciformity

How do you square God changing His mind and adding 15 years to Hezekiah's life and His foreknowledge about Hezekiah's death?
God is omniscient.
 
Upvote 0

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
361
61
Colorado Springs
✟98,682.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Maybe your X or Y is false. There’s another option, He has perfect foreknowledge of either possibility based upon whethe He acts to intervene and add 15 years. He can perfect foreknowledge of contingent circumstances where the contingency is based upon what He does or refrains from doing.
This is a hypothetical, so I establish that you were going to die at 50, and at some point God changed it to 65. Is that what you mean by "x or y"?
No, this logic doesn’t follow. The error is your treatment of God has perfect foreknowledge of what He will do, what He may or can do in our lives, what we may do or not do contingent upon what God does or doesn’t do, and perfect foreknowledge of what we will do. They aren’t the same.
Again, this was a contingent statement, starting with "if". See if that helps when you reread my post.
So, for example, Jonah and Nineveh. Bible Gateway passage: Jonah 3 - New American Standard Bible

God intended to destroy Nineveh. God then changed his mind. God may have had perfect foreknowledge of what would transpire if he destroyed Nineveh. God would also have perfect foreknowledge of what would happen if He didn’t destroy Nineveh. This includes the ripple effects upon the rest of history by either choice.
With Nineveh, God can have perfect foreknowledge of what person X living in Nineveh will/would go on to do if He didn’t destroy Nineveh, and all the potential ripple effects/different ripple effects upon history by X’s continued existence.

God has perfect foreknowledge of the ripple effects of X not around past the point He destroys Nineveh.

This can be applied to others in Nineveh, the city, and it’s wider ripple effects upon history whether Nineveh exists or is destroyed.

So, it isn’t necessarily true God must have perfect foreknowledge of what He will do in relation to us.

And not having such perfect foreknowledge of what He will do in relation to us doesn’t render God a liar.

Having an intention to do perform some action and communicating such an intention, and it is a sincere intention, doesn’t render one a liar upon changing one’s mind.

A applicant may have every intention to attend Notre Dame law school. They apply. They are accepted. They pay a fee to reserve their seat. The applicant is intent to attend ND. They communicate to the family they will attend ND.

Latet, they change their mind and attend Indiana University of Law.

Did the person lie and is the person a liar when they communicated they would attend ND? No. The same is true of God in relation to Hezekiah.

So, it doesn’t follow God lied or is a liar as you claim.
If (contingent statement follows) God already knew what He would do, and the scripture is clear His response was dependent on the people of Nineveh, then He must have known what the people were going to do. I agree with your assessment that God can change His mind, but if He foreknows their response, there's no reason He can't foreknow His own response to their response. Therefore, if He actually changes His mind, then He doesn't actually foreknow either their response to Jonah's message nor His own response to them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
361
61
Colorado Springs
✟98,682.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Examine this from the perspective of a skeptic, an unbeliever.
They will not consider the bible proof.
Because there are a lot of holy books that claim to be the truth.

If you've grown up in a Christian household so that has been what has been taught to you, you're more likely to accept it and deny things like evidence of the world being millions or billions of years old evolution etc.

But if you were brought up in a secular household, and what you've been taught is old earth, and evolution, you're not going to consider a thousands of year old book, written before there were any scientific methods to determine anything.. any standard of proof.

In that case, it actually takes something supernatural to receive faith, to see the bible as anything but a religious book like all other religious books written by ancient men.

Think about Matthew 16, when Peter makes his profession of faith that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus says that flesh has not revealed that to him. There were a lot of people who saw the same works Peter did, and still didn't believe.
One of them was named Judas Iscariot.
Truth doesn't depend on what your parents believed.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Truth doesn't depend on what your parents believed.

Proverbs 22
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

It matters.
to a child who has been taught bible all their life, the bible is proof enough, and the bible stands out from other religious books
To a child taught other religions or no religions, the bible is not proof at all, and is 1 religious book written by men among other religious books written by men.

It takes supernaturally given faith to believe it. You cannot, from an atheist upbringing, logic your way to Christ and the bible being true.
 
Upvote 0

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
361
61
Colorado Springs
✟98,682.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Proverbs 22


It matters.
to a child who has been taught bible all their life, the bible is proof enough, and the bible stands out from other religious books
To a child taught other religions or no religions, the bible is not proof at all, and is 1 religious book written by men among other religious books written by men.

It takes supernaturally given faith to believe it. You cannot, from an atheist upbringing, logic your way to Christ and the bible being true.
A person who was raised from a child on the truth of the bible admittedly has an advantage, if they don't reject the truth. But a person raised in a Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu home still can only be saved by Jesus death and resurrection. That's what I mean by truth. Not everybody is fortunate enough to hear the truth in their lifetime, but that doesn't change the truthfulness of the statement that they can only be saved by Jesus death and resurrection. Just because someone doesn't recognize the truth of the bible doesn't mean the bible isn't true. Do you agree?
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
A person who was raised from a child on the truth of the bible admittedly has an advantage, if they don't reject the truth. But a person raised in a Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu home still can only be saved by Jesus death and resurrection. That's what I mean by truth. Not everybody is fortunate enough to hear the truth in their lifetime, but that doesn't change the truthfulness of the statement that they can only be saved by Jesus death and resurrection. Just because someone doesn't recognize the truth of the bible doesn't mean the bible isn't true. Do you agree?

I agree but what I am saying is that presenting the Gospel to someone and it being rejected, is not purely just because they love sin.
It is often times because the bible's model of creation, disputes what they've known their entire lives, and the book itself is not seen as proof, there is no testimony that will convince my sister, and you cannot logic your way to faith.
Paul referred to faith itself, being a work of God and a gift of God, while Paul was preaching the gospel among gentiles, people who had been taught entirely different world views their entire lives.
Converting Gentiles to Christ, is in essence, miraculous.

Growing up, my family was atheist, or maybe new age, my mom leans to a form of pantheism if anything. My sister and I were both exposed to the Gospel through our friends and neighbors. I developed faith out of atheism, my sister did not.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
361
61
Colorado Springs
✟98,682.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I agree but what I am saying is that presenting the Gospel to someone and it being rejected, is not purely just because they love sin.
It is often times because the bible's model of creation, disputes what they've known their entire lives, and the book itself is not seen as proof, there is no testimony that will convince my sister, and you cannot logic your way to faith.
Paul referred to faith itself, being a work of God and a gift of God, while Paul was preaching the gospel among gentiles, people who had been taught entirely different world views their entire lives.
Converting Gentiles to Christ, is in essence, miraculous.

Growing up, my family was atheist, or maybe new age, my mom leans to a form of pantheism if anything. My sister and I were both exposed to the Gospel through our friends and neighbors. I developed faith out of atheism, my sister did not.
Ok think that explains our disconnect fairly well, so thanks for that.

My problem with the viewpoint that we need a special visit or unction or a supernatural gift of faith in order to believe completely denies the personal responsibility of each person whom the Spirit doesn't deem worthy enough (for whatever reason the Spirit may have), and consigns them to hell for eternity for not making the right choice in a decision they in no wise could make.

With the fatalistic theology you think comes from Rom 9 comes an excuse for every person who isn't elected.
 
Upvote 0