Evolution (or like) that is trained to respond to false positives, is a stronger Evolution (or like)

How many false positives can you tolerate, before you are forced to start again?

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  • Too many to justify.

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The Barbarian

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Speciation may be a fact, but I draw the line at the emergence of any new genus.

AIG and ICR admit the emergence of new genera. It's pretty hard to deny the fact, given the evidence. They usually draw the line at familes, although sometimes they will accept new families.

A dog can be a wolf, a domestic dog, or a coyote.

How about a dhole or a maned wolf?

But a dog can't be a giraffe -- unless it's on paper.

Those are different orders, not families.
 
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The Barbarian

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You are saying back to me, what I am saying does not make sense!

Makes as much sense as you did. Think about it.

You call it Evolution and you say it applies to every species, but when I say "where is the bridge between one species and another?"

Those are everywhere. Would you like some examples? Ring species and clines are an interesting case. Would you like some of those?

What if there was a cocoon that made butterflies hands? Don't you see you have said nothing?

I got you to think about it. Which is a pretty good result, isn't it?

You seem to want luck and then luck instead of truth.

If we can trust God, they are often the same:

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I turned me to another thing, and I saw that under the sun, the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the learned, nor favour to the skilful: but time and chance in all.

Trust Him, not your own wisdom.
 
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Gottservant

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AIG and ICR admit the emergence of new genera. It's pretty hard to deny the fact, given the evidence. They usually draw the line at familes, although sometimes they will accept new families.

New orders require a stable projection of the parents to the young: you can't tear up the family and give it a new projection, without destroying the family (and hence the projection).

[...]Those are different orders, not families.

If you stop at orders, then we believe the same thing.

But to do that you have to drop the idea that there was an imaginary bridge between monkey and man.
 
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Shemjaza

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A butterfly needs a cocoon.

I don't see any cocoons for men, or monkeys.

Does the butterfly having a cocoon, mean that one day other species will too? Not likely?
You've had this pointed out before, metamorphosis is not evolution and is not a change of species.

A caterpillar and a butterfly are both the same species just at a different stage of development.
 
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Shemjaza

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New orders require a stable projection of the parents to the young: you can't tear up the family and give it a new projection, without destroying the family (and hence the projection).

I think you are confusing two different concepts that are called "family", a group of closely related animals and a group of closely related species.

If you stop at orders, then we believe the same thing.

But to do that you have to drop the idea that there was an imaginary bridge between monkey and man.
There's no reason to stop at orders as there is evidence in the genes and in the fossil record that all life comes from a common ancestors.
 
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stevil

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A butterfly needs a cocoon.

I don't see any cocoons for men, or monkeys.
Evolution does not predict that men or monkeys will develop cocoons.
If, however, we were decended from butterflies then we would likely have common traits. But unfortunately we aren't, I am destined to stick with the body I have and unfortunately will not go into a cocoon and come out beautiful. Oh woo is me.

However, I am a mammal, I have opposable thumbs, I also have hair on my body, my woman has two breasts that produce milk after child birth, my woman gives birth to a child in a placenta rather than an egg.
Hmmmm, I wonder what other mammals share these traits? <hint> all the other great apes</hint>
 
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The Barbarian

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New orders require a stable projection of the parents to the young: you can't tear up the family and give it a new projection, without destroying the family (and hence the projection).

Sorry, that's observably wrong. Speciation is a fact. And there is almost never a "stable projection of the parents to the young." All offspring are slightly different than their parents.

I think you are confusing two different concepts that are called "family", a group of closely related animals and a group of closely related species.

Maybe that's it. Hard to say for him.

If you stop at orders, then we believe the same thing.

The problem with that, is evidence. It shows the evolution of new orders, classes, phyla, kingdoms, and domains.

But to do that you have to drop the idea that there was an imaginary bridge between monkey and man.

Evidence shows us that monkeys and apes (including humans) had a common ancestor. Even knowledgeable YE creationists admit this is true. They just prefer their understanding of the Bible rather than accept the evidence.
 
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chilehed

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Hi there,

So indeed, there is a question here of whether Evoutionists are identifying anything new, now that they have a semblance of a theory - that is supposed to identify relevant change (wrong?)? In principle, any theory at all, benefits from responding to what are called "false positives" - if they are to be engaged for any significant length of time. The idea is that every so often you throw something into the mix which is positively not identified by the theory, to see if those using the said theory are ready: to tell the difference between the real, and the disingenuine. If you are aware that somethings are disingenuine, you do not attempt to respond to them as if they are real!

Ok so what we have with Evolution, is that it isn't very good at identifying what it doesn't do, because it is presumed to be responsible for everything. Other theories distinguish themselves from false positives, by limiting their sphere of influence (like "oh, that's biology, that's different from chemistry") or staying close to the known (like archeology searches around where existing sites have been found). Other theories like Creation, assume there is a scapegoat, which accounts for all the false positives put together - the aim is to think as little of the scapegoat as you can, thus encouraging you to put false positives associated with the scapegoat behind you. Then again there is religious use of the false positive "the Zen koan" which is a kind of false positive for the mind. The point is that when these things are put in practice, you actively need to remain on guard, but Evolution doesn't do this.

What we come up against, is the idea that Evolution can identify that false positives make it stronger, but still not know how to identify one in Evolution's context. That is the challenge I am putting to you: how would you respond (not just identify) to a false positive, in Evolution's context. If you evolved a false positive, what would happen? Can you understand that readiness to respond to a false positive, puts you outside the working sphere of Evolution, as it stands? I want you to be able to respond to a false positive, but to do that you have to offer a foundation, for that response. This is the difficulty that Jesus faced when preaching to people who had no desire for the love of God - for Him, believers in themselves were a false positive, which only warranted a limited response.

The question is, realistically, whether it is a false positive believer or false positive scapegoat, how much stronger can readiness for false positives make a theory like Evolution? I mean it is not something you can just give up, until a perfect response is achieved, that takes too long - even by Evolution's standards. How much stronger? In the Christian faith, the Bible talks about identifying your readiness to respond to false positives, the way a soldier would, wearing armour and speaking under command. Jesus said "watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing" (gospels, from memory), in other words "watch out for false positives, that look like a contribution to the theory you believe (but are not)". How much stronger do you want Evolution to be? Can you see that being ready for false positives would help that?

I'm not trying to change the theory, I'm trying to expand it. Once you have a foundation, then you can start to identify agency and the ways it works in the confines of the theory. I already have thanks from God, trying to help you expand your theory, I don't need to be thanked. What I am asking for is a conversation that capitalizes on the wealth of meaning that can be found in the words of the Son of God, especially when the outcome is unknown, especially.

Peace in Jesus.
The incoherence of what you've written here rivals the work of Gene Ray. Congratulations!
 
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AV1611VET

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Caterpillars can't become something else, without a cocoon - how can apes?
Here's their "cocoon:"

gg687


That's where evolution works best: on paper.
 
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Gottservant

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Here's their "cocoon:"

gg687


That's where evolution works best: on paper.

You inspired me AV1611VET!

Let's pray for angels to correct our future generation's Evolution!

In Jesus Name, Amen!

(If we correct it now, there will be a population in future, that avoids selection pressures we could not!)
 
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stevil

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Yes it does, read the English: was Darwin's discovery a false positive?

Any theory, if it is true, can have false positives?
Your sentence which I responded to was
" how do you know if the first Evolution Darwin discovered, was not a false positive?"
What does it even mean "the first Evolution that Darwin discovered"?

I mean, you don't find an Evolution. It isn't something you can bend over and just pick up.
Evolution is a scientific Theory, much like General Relativity. You don't bend over and pick up a General Relativity.

Or like Love. You don't bend over and pick up a love. These things aren't things just lying around waiting to be found.

And what do you even mean when you say "false positive"?

A person can take a covid test and the test can create the two lines and this means that the test has detected that you have covid, but maybe the test isn't 100% perfect and can be wrong.

You can't stick a swab up your nose and put it through a test and have the test say that you have a positive result on your Evolution test.

Can you instead provide an example of a test for Evolution that has provided a positive? Then we can try and work out if these positives might be false.
 
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The Barbarian

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But where are the cocoons? Caterpillars can't become something else, without a cocoon

No, that's wrong. Some pupate underground and don't have a cocoon at all. And butterfly caterpillars don't form cocoons, but merely have a hardened integument.
 
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The Barbarian

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Yes it does, read the English: was Darwin's discovery a false positive?

Any theory, if it is true, can have false positives?

You're struggling to find some way to phrase what you mean. It's not working yet. Can a theory be true and yet be wrong in some ways? Sure. Newton's theory of gravitation was incorrect in certain exceptional cases, and has been modified. The four points of Darwin's theory remain solid as ever, but Darwin's assumption (shared by other scientists of his time) that acquired characteristics could be inherited has been shown to be false.
 
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