Is that resistance to the NT command of a new focus--on love of neighbor over love of law keeping, which
"loving is the fulfillment of the law" you love (
Romans 13:8-10), and
which you have yet to address?
It's not a new focus at all. I have addressed this several times including within the comments I made when looking at the command itself in Leviticus and by pointing to every time the command is restated in the NC Scriptures. If you were to look at Mark 12, which I linked in my previous post, you'd see this is not a new focus.
- One of the scribes Jesus spoke with understood the focus on the 2 Greatest Commandments, commended Jesus for speaking this truth & Jesus in turn commended him (Mark 12:28-34).
You keep using the phrase "law keeping" like it's a bad thing. Yet the Scripture disagrees with you once you're out of the initial justification/acquittal phase of salvation.
- NKJ 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
- NKJ 1 John 2:3-5 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
- NKJ Romans 8:3-8 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
- The clear implication here is: In Christ, when we have our minds set on the things of Spirit & are walking according to Spirit, we are able to be and are being subject to God's Law and the righteous requirement of the Law will be fulfilled in us
- NKJ Ephesians 4:28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
- "Let him" is translating an imperative/command.
- Paul is commanding according to the Decalogue under the NC
- Paul is also applying the giving/helping others aspect of Love Neighbor
- This is how the A=B, B=A language in Romans 13:8-10 works
- We still use Law to identify & rebuke lawless behavior, which appropriate rebuke is in itself an act of Love God & Neighbor, and we can expand into the other aspects of Love Neighbor where we serve & assist others beyond the rebuke (which rebuke is really Leviticus 19:17-18 as I've detailed - so we're reading of Paul applying the Love Neighbor Command using the Decalogue which is included in the Love Neighbor Command)
- NKJ 1 Timothy 5:17-20 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
- Paul uses God's Law from Deuteronomy 25:4 to explain his command to treat & compensate well-ruling elders appropriately
- The laborer is worthy of his wages as it pertains to Church elders is rooted in how God had arranged the support of the Levitical Priesthood - so, we're back to Law again
- The mouth of 2-3 witnesses goes back to Mosaic Law in Deuteronomy 17 & 19
- Rebuking sinners/those doing lawlessness means using God's Law to identify sin as Paul did in Ephesians 4:28 above
Again, Love is fulfillment of Law, because Love Neighbor is simply a summary statement/OC Commandment that includes all pertinent commandments from the Decalogue and throughout the Torah and the Prophets - actually the Tanakh - the entire Hebrew Scriptures.
I have addressed these things several times in several ways.
If you're not regenerate, it doesn't matter. Your only issue with God is faith.
If you're not regenerate, lawlessness is what the law of the land declares to be lawlessness.
If you're regenerate, lawlessness is failure to obey the command, "love your neighbor as yourself."
This is what those who study God's Law and how to use it accurately point out as the failure of the antinomian - anti-law-keeping part of the Body of Christ.
I'll try to keep this at a minimum based upon your points, but it is a big topic to discuss:
- Faith in Scripture is used interchangeably with obedience. Paul said in Romans 1 & 16 and again made reference in Romans 15 that his ministry from God was to bring the nations to "obedience of faith" - his Romans 15:18 shows a focus to be their obedience (faith-obedience).
- This takes us right back into all of the other discussion about Law/Love - obedience to God's Commandments
- Paul in Romans 3 says the whole world and every mouth (human being) stands guilty before God because the whole world is in the jurisdiction of God's Law
- In actuality part of our ministry to the unregenerate should be to remove this mystery for them, explain God's Sovereign Authority (part of the Great Commission & title "Christ" let alone "God" BTW) explain sin/lawlessness to them, point them to Christ - the solution for us all
- Lawlessness is always what the Sovereign of the Creation says it is. What human beings legislate is always to be according to His Law or it not only fails as legislation, but we Christians are to reject it when push comes to shove (as they say). Please don't take us to the Romans 13 debate. We're not there yet.
- Much of what we see in the USA today is the result of lawless legislation continuing its degeneracy into more lawlessness legislation & behavior. Some within the Body of Christ have been pointing out for ages how the antinomian Christian is part of the cause of this. As one said, By What Standard? IOW, if it's not God's Law that we use, then what and whose law is it? All we're left with is men as gods.
- The lawlessness of the Christian is indeed failure to obey the Love Neighbor Command and also by necessity the Love God Command and any of God's Commandments because to Love God is to keep His Commandments and even further - to see His commandments as not burdensome. Any of God's Commandments necessitates and includes those Commandments pertinent to and included in the Love Neighbor Command.
- I refer you again to the verses referenced for my answer to your first quoted statements above. I also refer you back to the overview of the Love Neighbor verses in the NC.
Only when your own well-being lacks definition.
That's the substance of your argument. . .and
I'm not buyin' it.
Actually, I entered into this discussion not expecting you to be "buyin' it". You know as well as I do that when you and I enter into any discussion the odds are that we will be in disagreement. Most of these threads end up in the same situation no matter who is discussing and we are usually posting for our own reasons & possibly for others outside the 2 or so actually in discussion.
You know the substance of my disagreement with your view is more expansive than this. It goes even down to Greek and English grammar and basic logic.
The point you're making about lack of definition for the "own well-being" phrase is what I brought out to you on more than one occasion in this thread. Apart from the Law & the Prophets, per Jesus Christ, all of the "own well-being", "as yourself", language is ultimately meaningless. Once the Biblical criterion for such statements is disregarded, all we have is a human viewpoint free-for-all and human gods defining terminology. Which puts us right back to talking about human legislation & humanistic / satanic agendas.
When you remove God's Commandments from the Love Neighbor Command you fall prey to this agenda.
You need definition of
"love your neighbor as yourself"?
How about
Matthew 5:44? . . .and the Golden Rule works well.
We get to convince God that we really don't know what "love our neighbor as ourselves" actually means.
I'm not going there.
I don't need definition. Jesus Christ, God our Father, the Spirit of God, Paul, John, & James, at minimum, have provided all the definition necessary. I just go by what they say and don't allow erroneous presupposition about law-keeping to distort the clear meaning of Scriptures like Romans 13:8-10 and others. My view is that you're throwing away a large part of specific definition so you can use what can be very subjective language instead.
Matthew 5 is one of the sections of Scripture I pointed to. Yes, it's
part of the definition and explanation. But you're trying to make a complete doctrine out of it and not dealing with Romans 13:8-10 and several other Scriptures accurately.
Maybe you're trying to convince God of something. I'm just working to take Him at His Word and rely on Him to work in me to conform me to it - all of it correctly interpreted and in context - in both thought & action.
Speaking of logic, how do you know that when "well-being lacks definition"?
Logic aside, it's you who is using this phrase, which at best is a paraphrase for something. Why don't you define and explain it for me? Please do it from both the perspective of a Christian and an unregenerate person.
Here is my concern so you can disagree with me again:
A Christian perspective:
- When I consider another's well-being, whether they're regenerate or not, I must consider it in light of all my Father & Lord have taught me from all of God's Word, including His Law & Commandments. What is God's will for us all?
- Thus, for example, a neighbor may have an intense desire to enter into a physical same-sex relationship with another person and this desire is causing anxiety to the point of physical illness, loss of work, etc.
- Since I understand that the world and every human being is in the jurisdiction of God's Law, and God has legislated that such activity is lawlessness that carries consequences, which consequences may well already be in the mental, emotional & physical experience of this neighbor, etc., etc., etc., I know that Love for Neighbor is to explain what I know to be true in a way that would conform to wisdom and Christ and this is for the well-being of this neighbor and community, local and beyond. It's what I would have done for me for my well-being in Christ, no matter my area of desire I may struggle with. Knowledge of the truth taught by Christ is freedom from sin/lawlessness (the context of the You shall know the truth... - another verse removed from context by the unregenerate and many regenerate).
An unregenerate perspective:
- A person's well-being (as for self) is live & let live, whatever floats your boat, consenting adults, love is great whatever or whoever you love, human happiness is paramount, etc. Would you like me to introduce you? Let me go get you some chicken soup so we can get you better and spruce you up a bit before I help you see if your desires can come true.
As I've said, do no harm (literally do not work evil), golden rule, love neighbor, etc., need the Law & Prophets as a foundation and inclusion. Take away, law-keeping and you've got human viewpoint & the pagan perspective of a fairy-tale god & rules no one needs
You may function to whatever degree within a Christian perspective, but from what you've said, you may also be one of the ones who adds actively or passively to the lawlessness. "All we need is love" the unregenerate sing...
Should you go where many go, they need Christ, of course they do. And they need the true Christ who leads them out of the lawlessness judicially and experientially.
I always found these verses interesting partially because I rarely heard them discussed in detail. They are in the section of Scripture where the Lord sent Peter to Cornelius:
NKJ Acts of the Apostles (I wish the forum would change this linking to recognize "Acts") 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 "But
in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
This is Cornelius the unbeliever BTW. Righteousness is a big deal to our Lord God. I know you know this. He details for us what it is and includes mostly in His Law. Since you don't need any rules (as I recall you saying), it seems to me you've lost your appreciation for the details of Righteousness.
