Creation Sabbath Origin

SabbathBlessings · Sep 26, 2022

Cornelius8L said:
Haha, I guess I know you better after reading your other threads concerning the laws of God.

Anyway, I hear you, where commandments (TEN) are above everything, overwriting every possible verse that contradicts them instead of considering how they can meet each other.

You say God rest on the seventh day, then Jesus cannot say God works on the seventh day (John 5:17). You are greater than Jesus. You are interesting indeed.

I have shared why we can still work in previous replies. Now, I think it is more important to understand each other.

I’m sure you are aware of the fact that there are many written contradictions in the Scripture. We, God’s worshippers, are given a spirit of wisdom to explain the contradiction without killing any verses.

If you think again, I quoting Colossian 2:16 is not to end Sabbath practice but to say let no one judge what we want to do on the seventh day (the ways not aligned with yours), but you started judging me because you thought I was using that verse to destroy Sabbath. But how can I destroy Sabbath if I say Sabbath is every day? Your concern is that one day is higher than another, disagreeing with Romans 14:5, but how difficult it is to keep the sabbath rest every day if the sabbath rest is by sincere hearts?

Must we regard one day above another and not make every day holy since our goal is to be perfect and holy like God is perfect and holy? How can we be perfect and holy if other days are not holy?

Rightfully, all Christ believers should be one (John 17:21), but we are divided by disputing Bible verses instead of connecting without removing any of them.

If I have read correctly, Exodus 20 keeps the seventh day holy but never restricts us from keeping the other six days holy. Set one day apart as holy, giving to God, but never forbids us from giving everything to God.

God bless

Jesus is not doing secular work on the Sabbath and is doing the work of His Father which is not breaking the commandment, just like it is not a sin for preachers to preach on the Sabbath.

I have never once judged you, I have only quoted scripture, but several times now you keep taking what I have written and turned into something completely different than what was stated.

There is no scripture that says we are to keep every day holy, and our opinions are not the same as scripture. God only blessed the seventh day and sanctified it- set apart for holy use. Genesis 2:1-3 God deems the seventh day as His holy day Exodus 30:10, Isaiah 58:13 and commands us to keep the same day holy because we are made in His image and to follow Him. Exodus 20:8-11. God sanctifies us through the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:12 and we cannot sanctify ourselves.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. Take care

BobRyan · Sep 26, 2022

Cornelius8L said:
Hey, thanks for your effort in listing the points. Do you mean the death penalty for not keeping the weekly Sabbath is not God’s instruction and can be altered by man?

I mean that He gave it as a civil law and civil laws only apply with the civil government where they are law. This is a detail that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic in almost every Christian denomination - agree with so it is not like one must be a Bible Sabbath keeper to see it.

IN Christ's day - as He is on Earth many people in Israel were not keeping Sabbath - Romans being one very large group of them. Jesus did not go around calling for the death of all Romans.

In Is 56:6-8 God specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping - but does not call for all non-Sabbath keeping gentiles to be killed not even in the OT.

BobRyan · Sep 26, 2022

Cornelius8L said:
Agree on all points, so I presume you agree that God’s commandments include all commands? Cool.

1. All scripture is given by inspiration from God - that is not the issue.
2. your statement that "God's commands include God's commands" is not adding anything.
3. One of God's commands is that the High Priest goes into the Most Holy Place once a year - but that is not a command that all humans enter the most holy place once a year. ... context matters. One of God's commands has babies circumcised 8 days after being born - but it does not apply to females. And it was not a requirement for gentiles OT or NT.

BobRyan · Sep 26, 2022

BobRyan said:
The word "alike" is not in the text and most Bible translators show it in italics as a word inserted.

So in Rom 14 "one man observes one day above another while another observes every day".

There is no "one man observes no day - and that is just fine" in Rom 14

In Gal 4 gentile Christians (former pagans) are condemned by Paul should they observe even ONE pagan day. So the "every day" of Rom 14 does not include the pagan days that Paul condemns gentile Christians for resorting to after having been converted to Christianity. Rather it can only refer to the "every day" listed in Lev 23 - where we find Bible-approved holy days.

Cornelius8L said:
Maybe you are forgetting the following verse. v6 “He who observes a special day does so to the Lord;” – So this is not referring to Pagan day.

IN my post I point that out as well

So in Rom 14 "one man observes one day above another while another observes every day".

There is no "one man observes no day - and that is just fine" in Rom 14
Romans 14 is only dealing with Bible-approved holy days such as those in Lev 23 -- the annual holy days. The text of Rom 14 forbids condemning someone for choosing to observe one or all of the Bible-approved holy days (Lev 23) but does not contradict the Gal 4 command that forbids observance of even one single pagan holy day.

By contrast Gal 4 deals with pagan holy days and condemns even one observance of them

Cornelius8L said:
Nice knowing you btw.

Likewise - I appreciate your taking the time to look into the subject.

Cornelius8L · Sep 27, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Jesus is not doing secular work on the Sabbath and is doing the work of His Father which is not breaking the commandment, just like it is not a sin for preachers to preach on the Sabbath.

Priesthood work is not secular work during the seventh day, yet Jesus says they break the Sabbath (Matthew 12:5). Your definition of “work” does not align with Jesus’.

Then again, a few examples of God’s secular works even on the seventh day (John 5:17),

Psalms 89:9
You rule the raging sea; when its waves mount up, You still them.

Matthew 5:45
He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Seventh-day of your definition should be darkness, no rain, still sea etc, because God must not do secular works.

Your definition of breaking the sabbath commandment is by not elevating the seventh day as such setting every day holy is breaking the sabbath commandment. Your Exodus 20 forbids us from making the other six days holy.

SabbathBlessings said:
There is no scripture that says we are to keep every day holy, and our opinions are not the same as scripture.

I hope you understand what you are proclaiming “no scripture says we are to keep every day holy,” because you cannot find a scripture that says we can’t.

Anyway, I do enjoy discussing the truth with you. Pray that we all understand what we are saying.

BobRyan said:
I mean that He gave it as a civil law and civil laws only apply with the civil government where they are law. This is a detail that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic in almost every Christian denomination - agree with so it is not like one must be a Bible Sabbath keeper to see it.

IN Christ's day - as He is on Earth many people in Israel were not keeping Sabbath - Romans being one very large group of them. Jesus did not go around calling for the death of all Romans.

In Is 56:6-8 God specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping - but does not call for all non-Sabbath keeping gentiles to be killed not even in the OT.

Do you have a scripture to support your claim? The Bible Scholars in Martin Luther’s time are Catholic leaders. What I’m saying is the Bible Scholars could be wrong. So, human leader decisions (apart from those recorded in the scripture) are not solid references. So, do you mean this death penalty is not nailed to the cross but removed by the Bible Scholar?

BobRyan said:
1. All scripture is given by inspiration from God - that is not the issue.
2. your statement that "God's commands include God's commands" is not adding anything.
3. One of God's commands is that the High Priest goes into the Most Holy Place once a year - but that is not a command that all humans enter the most holy place once a year. ... context matters. One of God's commands has babies circumcised 8 days after being born - but it does not apply to females. And it was not a requirement for gentiles OT or NT.

Item 1, Agree, no doubt.

Item 2, Not sure if I get you. If you mean all God’s commands besides the Ten are also God’s commandments, then I agree. Otherwise, feel free to open a new thread (or let’s find a similar thread), kindly invite me, and we can discuss it there.

Item 3, God can give commands to a specific group at a specific time. That, I agree.

BobRyan said:
There is no "one man observes no day - and that is just fine" in Rom 14

Do you realize “no man observes no day” can also apply to the Seventh Day? Which is a much more dangerous statement? Original text, Romans 14:5 Greek Text Analysis, direct translation suggests “One Truly for judges a day above day one however judges every day.”

Ref: πάντας = “every” Greek Concordance: πάντας (pantas) -- 90 Occurrences

BobRyan · Sep 27, 2022

Cornelius8L said:
The Bible Scholars in Martin Luther’s time are Catholic leaders. What I’m saying is the Bible Scholars could be wrong. So, human leader decisions (apart from those recorded in the scripture) are not solid references.

So, do you mean this death penalty is not nailed to the cross but removed by the Bible Scholar?

The three details you are skipping over

1. The anti-Sabbath pro-sunday Bible scholars agree with the Bible details just listed - it is not just the ones that favor the Bible Sabbath. If you have an example where Bible scholars on both sides of a doctrinal POV across all denominations on planet Earth - agree on the same detail and yet it is wrong - go ahead and point to one. Lacking that - I don't see that idea as being the most objective.

2. I never said "Bible scholars removed something" --- I think we probably both agree on that detail. I never said that.

3. Civil laws are not "nailed to the cross" - as I pointed out before (and so also those Bible scholars) a civil law only applies to the civil government that has that law. If you have some example where a civil law is being enforced and there is no civil government to enforce it having that law - go ahead and point to one. Lacking that - I don't see that idea as being the most objective.

BobRyan · Sep 27, 2022

BobRyan said: ↑
There is no "one man observes no day - and that is just fine" in Rom 14

Cornelius8L said:
Do you realize “no man observes no day” can also apply to the Seventh Day? Which is a much more dangerous statement? Original text, Romans 14:5 Greek Text Analysis, direct translation suggests “One Truly for judges a day above day one however judges every day.”

Ref: πάντας = “every” Greek Concordance: πάντας (pantas) -- 90 Occurrences

There is no "one man observes no day" in Rom 14 so you can apply it to anything you wish since it is not in the text.

That can't be a dangerous statement - since it does not exist.

IN Rom 14 the one who observes the day is the one who regards the day.

So then

5 One person esteems(observes) one day above another; another esteems (observes) every day. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;

The one who observes one of those Bible approved Lev 23 annual holy days observes ONE above another -- so he is observing one but not the others in that Lev 23 list of Bible approved annual holy days.

In no case is he observing the pagan days that Paul condemns in Gal 4.

BobRyan · Sep 27, 2022

Cornelius8L said:
Item 2, Not sure if I get you. If you mean all God’s commands besides the Ten are also God’s commandments, then I agree.

God's commands are God's commands -- is not saying anything.

But in Eph 6:2 the "first commandment with a promise" is the concept of "God's Commandments" or the "Commandments of God" -- is "Honor your father and mother" - according to Paul. And of course the one and only unit of Law where that is true - is the TEN which are the only commands inside the ark.

In Matt 19 Jesus said 'keep the commandments' - and when asked "which ones" He quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses dealing with moral law which relates to Loving your neighbor as yourself instead of Leaf's much hoped for "parapets".

In Rom 7 when Paul speaks of the LAW of God - he quotes only from the moral law of God - (which always includes the unit of TEN)

IN James 2 when James speaks of the Law of God - - he quotes only from the moral law of God - (which always includes the unit of TEN)

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

BobRyan said:
In Matt 19 Jesus said 'keep the commandments' - and when asked "which ones" He quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses dealing with moral law which relates to Loving your neighbor as yourself instead of Leaf's much hoped for "parapets".

I'm flattered that you remember so much about me

So... The parapets law isn't a moral law, in your view? And, in keeping with the thread topic, Adam and Eve weren't given the parapets law?

BobRyan · Sep 27, 2022

Leaf473 said:
The parapets law isn't a moral law, in your view?

I simply noted that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations ... on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic - admit that the TEN are included in the moral law of God applicable to all mankind.

So while your focus on parapets is interesting - I don't notice that level of support for it from both sides of the Sabbath topic. If you do have evidence of such broad support for it on both sides of the Sabbath debate -- I welcome your evidence go ahead and post it.

So then... the point remains - regardless of what one thinks of "parapets".

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

BobRyan said:
I simply noted that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations ... on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic - admit that the TEN are included in the moral law of God applicable to all mankind.

So while your focus on parapets is interesting - I don't notice that level of support for it from both sides of the Sabbath topic. If you do have evidence of such broad support for it on both sides of the Sabbath debate -- I welcome your evidence go ahead and post it.

So then... the point remains - regardless of what one thinks of "parapets".

Okay, so... It sounds like the parapets law is not a moral law in your view. And I assume you don't think it was given to Adam and Eve, then?

BobRyan · Sep 27, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Okay, so... It sounds like the parapets law is not a moral law in your view.

I think this is the part where instead of rewording my post - you are supposed to quote "me" to make that case.

Since you said before you don't actually read the post in its entirety - here it is again...

BobRyan said:
I simply noted that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations ... on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic - admit that the TEN are included in the moral law of God applicable to all mankind.

So while your focus on parapets is interesting - I don't notice that level of support for it from both sides of the Sabbath topic. If you do have evidence of such broad support for it on both sides of the Sabbath debate -- I welcome your evidence go ahead and post it.

So then... the point remains - regardless of what one thinks of "parapets".

Leaf473 · Sep 27, 2022

BobRyan said:
I think this is the part where instead of rewording my post - you are supposed to quote "me" to make that case.

Since you said before you don't actually read the post in its entirety - here it is again...

I was trying to figure out what your answer was to these questions:

Leaf473 said:
The parapets law isn't a moral law, in your view? And, in keeping with the thread topic, Adam and Eve weren't given the parapets law?

Did you want to answer those questions?

Cornelius8L · Sep 28, 2022

BobRyan said:
The three details you are skipping over

1. The anti-Sabbath pro-sunday Bible scholars agree with the Bible details just listed - it is not just the ones that favor the Bible Sabbath. If you have an example where Bible scholars on both sides of a doctrinal POV across all denominations on planet Earth - agree on the same detail and yet it is wrong - go ahead and point to one. Lacking that - I don't see that idea as being the most objective.

2. I never said "Bible scholars removed something" --- I think we probably both agree on that detail. I never said that.

3. Civil laws are not "nailed to the cross" - as I pointed out before (and so also those Bible scholars) a civil law only applies to the civil government that has that law. If you have some example where a civil law is being enforced and there is no civil government to enforce it having that law - go ahead and point to one. Lacking that - I don't see that idea as being the most objective.

I believe the foundation of our discussion is the scripture. If we bring in the Bible scholars’ views without having them discussing with us, it is as good as treating their views as part of scripture.

BobRyan said:
2. I never said "Bible scholars removed something" --- I think we probably both agree on that detail. I never said that.

Yes, you never. I was asking to understand your point better

BobRyan said:
5. Civil laws (such as the death penalty) created under a theocracy only apply when under that theocracy and end when that theocracy ends. So for example no "death penalty" for Sabbath breaking for Jews captive in Babylon and Paul calls for no "death penalty" for Sabbath breaking ..

Israeli not obeying the law, and not practicing it during their captivity, does not suggest that this instruction is a civil law created under a theocracy. Otherwise, burning sacrifices fall under the same category since they cannot be done during captivity as well.

Cornelius8L · Sep 28, 2022

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said: ↑
There is no "one man observes no day - and that is just fine" in Rom 14

There is no "one man observes no day" in Rom 14 so you can apply it to anything you wish since it is not in the text.

That can't be a dangerous statement - since it does not exist.

IN Rom 14 the one who observes the day is the one who regards the day.

So then

5 One person esteems(observes) one day above another; another esteems (observes) every day. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;

The one who observes one of those Bible approved Lev 23 annual holy days observes ONE above another -- so he is observing one but not the others in that Lev 23 list of Bible approved annual holy days.

In no case is he observing the pagan days that Paul condemns in Gal 4.

BobRyan said:
God's commands are God's commands -- is not saying anything.

But in Eph 6:2 the "first commandment with a promise" is the concept of "God's Commandments" or the "Commandments of God" -- is "Honor your father and mother" - according to Paul. And of course the one and only unit of Law where that is true - is the TEN which are the only commands inside the ark.

In Matt 19 Jesus said 'keep the commandments' - and when asked "which ones" He quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses dealing with moral law which relates to Loving your neighbor as yourself instead of Leaf's much hoped for "parapets".

In Rom 7 when Paul speaks of the LAW of God - he quotes only from the moral law of God - (which always includes the unit of TEN)

IN James 2 when James speaks of the Law of God - - he quotes only from the moral law of God - (which always includes the unit of TEN)

Let’s bring these two discussions to here [Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2]

Creation Sabbath Origin

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