Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved

Saint Steven · Sep 26, 2022

rwb said:
You'll have to be more specific about what misquotes you believe are contradictions.

Here's one example below:

So which is it? "received gifts from people" or "gave gifts to his people"?
They mean the opposite.

Ephesians 4:7-9 NIV
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

Psalm 68:18 NIV
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from the rebellious—
that you, Lord God, might dwell there.

Saint Steven · Sep 26, 2022

rwb said:
I find no contradictions in the Word of God. That you have no problem with God contradicting Himself is troubling.

If it's true, would that destroy your faith? (I hope not)
Is your faith in a book (worts and all), or the author?

Check this out:
List Of Bible Contradictions - Believers Portal

When did the fig tree wither?

Matthew 21:19 NIV
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Mark 11:20-21 NIV
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

Der Alte · Sep 26, 2022

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
If it's true, would that destroy your faith? (I hope not)
Is your faith in a book (worts and all), or the author?
Check this out:
List Of Bible Contradictions - Believers Portal
When did the fig tree wither?
Matthew 21:19 NIV
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
Mark 11:20-21 NIV
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

And you are claiming that this is an error? Maybe you should quit relying on anti-Christian sources.
Matt. the tree withered. Mark then next day the disciples saw that the tree had withered.

rwb · Sep 26, 2022

Saint Steven said:
If it's true, would that destroy your faith? (I hope not)
Is your faith in a book (worts and all), or the author?

Check this out:
List Of Bible Contradictions - Believers Portal

When did the fig tree wither?

Matthew 21:19 NIV
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Mark 11:20-21 NIV
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

Mark doesn't say the fig tree withered immediately as Matthew does. Rather "in the morning" or the next day they see the withered tree. That's why Peter says he remembered what Jesus had said the morning before, "May you never bear fruit again". This is simply both disciples describing the same event, one detailing Christ's prophetic words and the other describing how quickly the prophesy was fulfilled. The first morning as they walked Christ cursed the fig tree. The very next morning, seeing the curse fulfilled Peter remembered Jesus' words. No contradiction here!

Lazarus Short · Sep 26, 2022

Der Alte said:
Maybe you should quit relying on anti-Christian sources.

Given your habit of mentioning and quoting from the Talmud, the above statement is fairly amusing.

Der Alte · Sep 26, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
Given your habit of mentioning and quoting from the Talmud, the above statement is fairly amusing.

If you ever find me in error, please be sure to point it out. I have only quoted the Talmud as evidence what the Jews, themselves, believed and practiced. Never as evidence of anything relating to Christianity. Whereas my objection above the poster was quoting from a definite anti-Christian source.

Saint Steven · Sep 26, 2022

rwb said:
Mark doesn't say the fig tree withered immediately as Matthew does. Rather "in the morning" or the next day they see the withered tree. That's why Peter says he remembered what Jesus had said the morning before, "May you never bear fruit again". This is simply both disciples describing the same event, one detailing Christ's prophetic words and the other describing how quickly the prophesy was fulfilled. The first morning as they walked Christ cursed the fig tree. The very next morning, seeing the curse fulfilled Peter remembered Jesus' words. No contradiction here!

Nice try, but no cookie.
The common apologetic you recited for us was created to support the "no contradictions" premise. If there are no contradictions, what happened? But...

There would be no reason for Peter to ALERT Jesus that the fig tree had withered if everyone already knew it had.

When did the fig tree wither?

Matthew 21:19 NIV
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Mark 11:20-21 NIV
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

Lazarus Short · Sep 26, 2022

Der Alte said:
If you ever find me in error, please be sure to point it out. I have only quoted the Talmud as evidence what the Jews, themselves, believed and practiced. Never as evidence of anything relating to Christianity. Whereas my objection above the poster was quoting from a definite anti-Christian source.

I have read sufficient excerpts from the Talmud to know that it is "a definite anti-Christian source." Perhaps you need to dig a little deeper.

Der Alte · Sep 26, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
I have read sufficient excerpts from the Talmud to know that it is "a definite anti-Christian source." Perhaps you need to dig a little deeper.

And you do not see how that is irrelevant to anything? As I said I only quote the Talmud for their information on historic Jewish; beliefs, faith and practice which has absolutely no bearing on anything relating to Christianity. Nothing, zilch, nada.

rwb · Sep 26, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Nice try, but no cookie.
The common apologetic you recited for us was created to support the "no contradictions" premise. If there are no contradictions, what happened? But...

There would be no reason for Peter to ALERT Jesus that the fig tree had withered if everyone already knew it had.

When did the fig tree wither?

Matthew 21:19 NIV
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Mark 11:20-21 NIV
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

If Peter had been there to see the fig tree immediately withered, why would he say he remembered and said to Jesus "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered"??? Why would Peter have to remember what Jesus said if he saw the tree wither immediately after Christ cursed it??? Because Peter did not see the fig tree when it immediately withered. It wasn't until the next morning after the prophetic words of Christ that Peter saw the withered fig tree and remembered what Christ had said the morning before.

Your doctrine has your vision clouded to see what is written and seems to make you doubt the Authority of the Word of God. If you truly believe the Bible, the Holy Word of God has contradiction, why would you trust anything at all it says? How can you be sure any doctrine from Scripture you espouse is true if you truly doubt the Authority of God's written Word?

The words of God are pure, and truth, given to men of old by inspiration of God. You appear to come up with your own private interpretation of Scripture forgetting "the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

None could be instructed in righteousness if the Word of God contains contradiction.

John 17:17 (KJV) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psalm 12:6 (KJV) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 1:19-21 (KJV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Saint Steven · Sep 26, 2022

rwb said:
If Peter had been there to see the fig tree immediately withered, why would he say he remembered and said to Jesus "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered"??? Why would Peter have to remember what Jesus said if he saw the tree wither immediately after Christ cursed it??? Because Peter did not see the fig tree when it immediately withered. It wasn't until the next morning after the prophetic words of Christ that Peter saw the withered fig tree and remembered what Christ had said the morning before.

If the fig tree withed immediately, Peter would have seen it. He heard Jesus curse the fig tree. How could he miss the immediate withering? Once again, no cookie for you.

Matthew 21:19 NIV
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Mark 11:20-21 NIV
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

Fervent · Sep 26, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Is your faith in a book (worts and all), or the author?

Wny would someone have faith in an author that obscures his meaning with an untrustworthy book? To have faith in the author is to have faith in the book, there's no separating the two.

Lazarus Short · Sep 27, 2022

Der Alte said:
And you do not see how that is irrelevant to anything? As I said I only quote the Talmud for their information on historic Jewish; beliefs, faith and practice which has absolutely no bearing on anything relating to Christianity. Nothing, zilch, nada.

Your point is understood, but I think you are drawing from a poisoned well.

Der Alte · Sep 27, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
Your point is understood, but I think you are drawing from a poisoned well.

Okay. I'll play your game. Recommend to me a better well for credible, information on the faith and practice of the ancient Jews prior to Christianity. I don't mean the Bible that is what they were supposed to do, not necessarily what they did do.

Lazarus Short · Sep 27, 2022

Der Alte said:
Okay. I'll play your game. Recommend to me a better well for credible, information on the faith and practice of the ancient Jews prior to Christianity. I don't mean the Bible that is what they were supposed to do, not necessarily what they did do.

Are you trying to set me up? Surely you know enough of your OT to know that it records what Israel and Judah DID, as well as what they were expected to do.

There are many good books on the subject of "faith and practice" but the works of Flavius Josephus come to mind first. Beyond that, I won't play your game.

Der Alte · Sep 27, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
Are you trying to set me up? Surely you know enough of your OT to know that it records what Israel and Judah DID, as well as what they were expected to do.
There are many good books on the subject of "faith and practice" but the works of Flavius Josephus come to mind first. Beyond that, I won't play your game.

It ain't my game. It's your game now I called your bluff and you back out. And what makes Josephus, an outsider, more credible than the Jewish Talmud?

rwb · Sep 28, 2022

Saint Steven said:
If the fig tree withed immediately, Peter would have seen it. He heard Jesus curse the fig tree. How could he miss the immediate withering? Once again, no cookie for you.

Matthew 21:19 NIV
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Mark 11:20-21 NIV
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

That's okay, you can have the cookie! As for me I'll have it all by grace through faith when Christ comes again to gather HIS PEOPLE to inhabit the new earth.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

rwb said:
That's okay, you can have the cookie! As for me I'll have it all by grace through faith when Christ comes again to gather HIS PEOPLE to inhabit the new earth.

I see... you have yours, to hell with everyone else?

rwb · Sep 28, 2022

Saint Steven said:
I see... you have yours, to hell with everyone else?

Not at all! Just feeling unbelievably blessed and grateful that I am one of a great innumerable multitude who are of His people. Because truly "there but by the grace of God go I". I too would be among those who will be cast into the eternal flames at the Great White Throne when Christ comes again, and God will judge the dead according to what is written in the books and the book of life. BUT by grace through faith of the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit I am secure in Christ and will never be among "the dead".

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2022

rwb said:
Not at all! Just feeling unbelievably blessed and grateful that I am one of a great innumerable multitude who are of His people. Because truly "there but by the grace of God go I". I too would be among those who will be cast into the eternal flames at the Great White Throne when Christ comes again, and God will judge the dead according to what is written in the books and the book of life. BUT by grace through faith of the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit I am secure in Christ and will never be among "the dead".

If I remember correctly, you don't believe that "all" means all, but do you believe that "everyone" means everyone?

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved

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