Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2022

rwb said:
He created, by their own free will chose death rather than the eternal life that exists only in Him by His Spirit.

I don't think Adam knew what death was any more than the people in Noah's day knew what rain was.

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2022

rwb said:
God loves His creation, including mankind! The problem is not found within God but within man. The image and likeness of God that mankind was created in was lost at creation when the man and woman He created, by their own free will chose death rather than the eternal life that exists only in Him by His Spirit.

Once sin entered into God's creation, and death through sin, mankind lost the likeness and image of God they were created with. That's why to have eternal life through Christ man must be born again, born from above, born of the Spirit. For it is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing. It is eternal life from the Spirit of God that departed from mankind when they sinned. For that reason, again, man must be born again of the Spirit to have eternal life through Christ. No man will have life in Christ without the life-giving Spirit from God.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I appreciate your thoughtful posts.
But this is yet another post that does not defeat UR. (assuming that is your aim)

rwb · Sep 24, 2022

Saint Steven said:
I don't think Adam knew what death was any more than the people in Noah's day knew what rain was.

I agree! How could he have known of death before eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? But He did know that God had commanded them not to eat of that tree, but instead of obeying God they heeded the voice of the serpent and plunged the whole of creation into sin and death through sin.

It is akin to telling a very young child not to touch the hot stove, and telling them if they do, they would be burned. The willful child will almost always try to touch the stove because they have no understanding of what it is to be burned. The consequence for disobeying still comes to the child who disobeys even though he had no understanding of what it means to be burned.

rwb · Sep 24, 2022

Saint Steven said:
I appreciate your thoughtful posts.
But this is yet another post that does not defeat UR. (assuming that is your aim)

Now this is just wishful thinking! The Bible is very clear universal redemption is not found in the writing of Holy Scripture.

Der Alte · Sep 24, 2022

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
I appreciate your thoughtful posts.
But this is yet another post that does not defeat UR. (assuming that is your aim)

These vss. defeat UR!

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

= = = =

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

FineLinen · Sep 24, 2022

rwb said:
The Bible is very clear universal redemption is not found in the writing of Holy Scripture.

The Lord loses nothing, not leftover scraps of fish and bread, and most assuredly the broken sinners for whom He is the great High Priest!

Der Alte · Sep 24, 2022

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
The Lord loses nothing, not leftover scraps of fish and bread, and most assuredly the broken sinners for whom He is the great High Priest!

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus did not say "everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." He said "Not everyone ...shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Then Jesus says "many," not a few, will brag to Him about all the good things they claim they did.
Then Jesus tells them, the "MANY," "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

rwb · Sep 24, 2022

FineLinen said:
The Lord loses nothing, not leftover scraps of fish and bread, and most assuredly the broken sinners for whom He is the great High Priest!

Psalm 5:5 (KJV) The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

The Lake of Fire that is the second death does not await those whom God loves. The second death is the fate of all who live and die without a Savior; Christ Jesus our Lord.

Psalm 36:12 (KJV) . There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2022

rwb said:
Now this is just wishful thinking! The Bible is very clear universal redemption is not found in the writing of Holy Scripture.

Are you sure?

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance:
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself
will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought
into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

More? Okay...

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

rwb · Sep 24, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Are you sure?

How do you reconcile all the verses you quote with those already quoted which prove universalism is not biblical? Or perhaps contradiction of Scripture is not a problem for you?? But remember if contradiction is found in Scripture we may just as well toss the book, it would be worthless if true!

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2022

rwb said:
How do you reconcile all the verses you quote with those already quoted which prove universalism is not biblical? Or perhaps contradiction of Scripture is not a problem for you?? But remember if contradiction is found in Scripture we may just as well toss the book, it would be worthless if true!

That saw cuts both ways, friend.

Bible versus Bible, what is accomplished?

rwb · Sep 24, 2022

Saint Steven said:
That saw cuts both ways, friend.

Bible versus Bible, what is accomplished?

I've already shown you how your understanding of "whole world" and "all" cannot be defined as inclusive of humanity. These phrases are used to differentiate between Jews and Gentiles. IOW whole world and all is simply a way of showing eternal life through Christ is not limited but is for whosoever throughout the earth turns to Christ for eternal life. Not the Jews only, but also Gentile believers. Nothing will be accomplished by repeating again what has already been proven. You post verses of Scripture without considering how you are pushing these verses to support your doctrine, when in reality they cannot. Because if these verses prove universalism how could anyone trust the Word?

You quote a verse from Romans as if it proves your assumption that universalism is biblical. But you've not only pulled the verse from its context, but also assume "all" means humanity as a whole.

In context Paul is showing us how some don't believe, but he hopes that through the mercy believers show them they too may obtain mercy. MAY not WOULD obtain mercy. Because God has concluded them all, both those who have obtained mercy who were also once in unbelief, as well as those currently in unbelief who might receive mercy through the mercy of those who have already obtained mercy. That He MIGHT, not WILL have mercy upon all.

Romans 11:31-32 (KJV) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2022

rwb said:
You post verses of Scripture without considering how you are pushing these verses to support your doctrine, when in reality they cannot. Because if these verses prove universalism how could anyone trust the Word?

You quote a verse from Romans as if it proves your assumption that universalism is biblical. But you've not only pulled the verse from its context, but also assume "all" means humanity as a whole.

So, you aren't concerned that "all" doesn't mean all? How does that make the Bible more trustworthy? Do you have a secret code book that tells you what it really means, since a clear reading won't get you there?

Luke 10:25-26 NIV
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

DavidPT · Sep 24, 2022

white gardenia said:
I believe in a literal interpretation of the King James Bible, but studying it as literal truth has ironically gotten me to the point where I tend to agree with Universalism (that the most likely outcome for our universe is that God gets His way and everyone is brought to Salvation). I think one of the keys is the Harrowing of Hell.
There are definitely many references to hell before Christ's death (as in people who were currently in hell...the Rich Man from Luke 16...but also righteous men like Abraham, David, Samuel, King Saul, Saul's son etc (they are all referenced as descending down to Hades after death.... It seems that almost everyone went to hell under the Old Covenant). But it seems to me that all of that changed with Christ's death and the Harrowing of Hell.
As far as many of the the verses which include Christ's warnings about "Gehenna" in Matthew were warnings on a societal level. Passages like Matthew 25 seem to be referencing the impending doom of Jerusalem.....and what some might call "supersession" ...the idea that the Jewish people would no longer be the only race/ tribe that could be redeemed, and that a New Covenant had been established in the context of Christ's death. Indeed, many of Christ's warnings in Matthew seem to refer to an old Guard being "thrown out into the darkness" in favor of a new Guard (presumably comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who had accepted Christ). Christ also warned that this separation of the "sheep and the goats" would herald the "end of the age" but also predicated these warnings with time signifiers such as "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". It's interesting that Christ uses "Hades" in the story of Lazarus and The Rich Man but uses "Gehenna" when talking about the Sheep and the Goats. But what really convinces me that Christ's warnings in the Olivet Discourse are not about Hell (the same Hell that is referenced in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man) is that this entire sequence (including the warnings about the Sheep and the Goats and the references to kolasis and eternal destruction) is predicated with that time signifier- "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". Why would general warnings about Hell be pinned to any one time frame or generation? And of course much of what Christ predicted in the Olivet Discourse (or the "Little Apocalypse") did come true. Many theologians claim that he was accurately predicting both the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD and the transition to the Christian (New Covenant) era of human history.
Now back to Hades....Christ uses the word Hades to tell the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. But what happened to Hades upon Christ's death? Ephesians 4:9 says "..He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth..." 1st Peter 4:6 says "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."...and then 1st Peter 3:18 says “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah....”. And there are other passages of course...but the main point is that Christ descended to free the dead spirits (presumably including the Rich Man and Lazarus).
One of the most significant aspects of this Biblical timeline is that there is no mention of anyone being in Hades after Christ's death (The Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation is in the context of a future event that I will discuss in a moment). At no point in the New Testament AD (after Christ's death) is there any mention of anyone being in Hell (at least no mention that I have been able to find...feel free to correct me if I am wrong). To the contrary, it reiterates the freeing of those in Hell. As Acts 2:31 notes- "David, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of Christ that ‘His soul was not left in hell, neither did His flesh see corruption." (notably this verse reverts back to the root word of Hades...after the root word of Gehenna had become commonplace in the New Testament). The only reference to a possible Hell that I can find in the New Testament after Christ's Death is in 2 Peter 2:4 where it refers to angels being currently bound in Hell awaiting judgement- "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" Interestingly, Hell here has the root word of "Tartarus" (Is that the only use of "Tartarus" in the Bible? I havent been able to find it anywhere else)..

The references to a future Hell in Revelation are (I suspect) something totally different. These references use "Lake of Fire" instead of the other root words (although "Hades" is brought back in a separate context as an anthropomorphized presence which rides alongside Death before being engulfed by the Lake of Fire). I believe that the references to Hell and the Lake of Fire in Revelation are also on a societal level (similar to the references in the Olivet Discourse but on a much more apocalyptic scale)....but thats a bit more complicated and involved topic...Ill only open that can of worms if people are interested..

In order for Universalism to even be a possibility, there first has to be a resurrection from the 2nd death. Where do you propose in the KJV it teaches about a resurrection from the 2nd death, which would mean a person encounters 2 literal bodily resurrections rather than just one?

I'm not opposed to the idea of Universalism, it's just that I'm convinced the Bible doesn't support it, not even the KJV, which BTW, is my version of choice.

Der Alte · Sep 24, 2022

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
Are you sure. 1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.
Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance:
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself
will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought
into the freedom and glory of the children of God. * * *

The same laundry list of out-of-context proof texts which have all been refuted many times.
To all these I will respond with only 2 passages. Which I have quoted multiple times and which have not been addressed and certainly not refuted.

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
= = = =
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2022

rwb said:
In context Paul is showing us how some don't believe, but he hopes that through the mercy believers show them they too may obtain mercy. MAY not WOULD obtain mercy. Because God has concluded them all, both those who have obtained mercy who were also once in unbelief, as well as those currently in unbelief who might receive mercy through the mercy of those who have already obtained mercy. That He MIGHT, not WILL have mercy upon all.

Romans 11:31-32 (KJV) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So are you claiming that the word "might" in the KJV doesn't mean "will"? (or would)

John 19:24
They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
John 19:28
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Der Alte · Sep 24, 2022

rwb said:
I've already shown you how your understanding of "whole world" and "all" cannot be defined as inclusive of humanity. These phrases are used to differentiate between Jews and Gentiles. IOW whole world and all is simply a way of showing eternal life through Christ is not limited but is for whosoever throughout the earth turns to Christ for eternal life. Not the Jews only, but also Gentile believers. Nothing will be accomplished by repeating again what has already been proven. You post verses of Scripture without considering how you are pushing these verses to support your doctrine, when in reality they cannot. Because if these verses prove universalism how could anyone trust the Word?

You quote a verse from Romans as if it proves your assumption that universalism is biblical. But you've not only pulled the verse from its context, but also assume "all" means humanity as a whole.

In context Paul is showing us how some don't believe, but he hopes that through the mercy believers show them they too may obtain mercy. MAY not WOULD obtain mercy. Because God has concluded them all, both those who have obtained mercy who were also once in unbelief, as well as those currently in unbelief who might receive mercy through the mercy of those who have already obtained mercy. That He MIGHT, not WILL have mercy upon all.
Romans 11:31-32 (KJV) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 11:31-32 (KJV) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

In this vs. the verb "mercy" is in the subjunctive mood, the mood of possibility/potentiality. It is not a done deal. If Paul had meant it would definitely happen, he would have used the Indicative mood as he did in Rom 9:15.

rwb · Sep 24, 2022

Saint Steven said:
So, you aren't concerned that "all" doesn't mean all? How does that make the Bible more trustworthy? Do you have a secret code book that tells you what it really means, since a clear reading won't get you there?

Luke 10:25-26 NIV
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

I read the Bible understanding there can be no contradictions. So, if I interpret any passage or verse in such a way that I find contradiction in the Word, I know immediately I must re-evaluate my understanding because God's Word never contradicts itself. There is no misunderstanding in defining words like 'all' or 'world'/'whole world' is used in Scripture to show us grace unto salvation is not limited to the Jews, but is extended to both Jew and Gentile, IOW all people without distinction, but not all without exception.

But for the universalist's contradiction seems not to be a problem.

Der Alte · Sep 24, 2022

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
So are you claiming that the word "might" in the KJV doesn't mean "will"? (or would)

Saint Steven said:
***
Romans 8:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You should familiarize yourself with the subjunctive mood in Greek.

1. As stated in the area giving a short definition of the subjunctive mood, the subjunctive indicates probability or objective possibility. The action of the verb will possibly happen, depending on certain objective factors or circumstances. It has a number of specific uses and is oftentimes used in conditional statements (i.e. 'If...then...' clauses) or in purpose clauses.
More Detailed Use of the Greek Subjunctive Mood - Framed View (ntgreek.org)

coffee4u · Sep 24, 2022

white gardenia said:
I believe in a literal interpretation of the King James Bible, but studying it as literal truth has ironically gotten me to the point where I tend to agree with Universalism (that the most likely outcome for our universe is that God gets His way and everyone is brought to Salvation). I think one of the keys is the Harrowing of Hell.
There are definitely many references to hell before Christ's death (as in people who were currently in hell...the Rich Man from Luke 16...but also righteous men like Abraham, David, Samuel, King Saul, Saul's son etc (they are all referenced as descending down to Hades after death.... It seems that almost everyone went to hell under the Old Covenant). But it seems to me that all of that changed with Christ's death and the Harrowing of Hell.
As far as many of the the verses which include Christ's warnings about "Gehenna" in Matthew were warnings on a societal level. Passages like Matthew 25 seem to be referencing the impending doom of Jerusalem.....and what some might call "supersession" ...the idea that the Jewish people would no longer be the only race/ tribe that could be redeemed, and that a New Covenant had been established in the context of Christ's death. Indeed, many of Christ's warnings in Matthew seem to refer to an old Guard being "thrown out into the darkness" in favor of a new Guard (presumably comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who had accepted Christ). Christ also warned that this separation of the "sheep and the goats" would herald the "end of the age" but also predicated these warnings with time signifiers such as "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". It's interesting that Christ uses "Hades" in the story of Lazarus and The Rich Man but uses "Gehenna" when talking about the Sheep and the Goats. But what really convinces me that Christ's warnings in the Olivet Discourse are not about Hell (the same Hell that is referenced in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man) is that this entire sequence (including the warnings about the Sheep and the Goats and the references to kolasis and eternal destruction) is predicated with that time signifier- "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". Why would general warnings about Hell be pinned to any one time frame or generation? And of course much of what Christ predicted in the Olivet Discourse (or the "Little Apocalypse") did come true. Many theologians claim that he was accurately predicting both the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD and the transition to the Christian (New Covenant) era of human history.
Now back to Hades....Christ uses the word Hades to tell the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. But what happened to Hades upon Christ's death? Ephesians 4:9 says "..He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth..." 1st Peter 4:6 says "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."...and then 1st Peter 3:18 says “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah....”. And there are other passages of course...but the main point is that Christ descended to free the dead spirits (presumably including the Rich Man and Lazarus).
One of the most significant aspects of this Biblical timeline is that there is no mention of anyone being in Hades after Christ's death (The Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation is in the context of a future event that I will discuss in a moment). At no point in the New Testament AD (after Christ's death) is there any mention of anyone being in Hell (at least no mention that I have been able to find...feel free to correct me if I am wrong). To the contrary, it reiterates the freeing of those in Hell. As Acts 2:31 notes- "David, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of Christ that ‘His soul was not left in hell, neither did His flesh see corruption." (notably this verse reverts back to the root word of Hades...after the root word of Gehenna had become commonplace in the New Testament). The only reference to a possible Hell that I can find in the New Testament after Christ's Death is in 2 Peter 2:4 where it refers to angels being currently bound in Hell awaiting judgement- "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" Interestingly, Hell here has the root word of "Tartarus" (Is that the only use of "Tartarus" in the Bible? I havent been able to find it anywhere else)..

The references to a future Hell in Revelation are (I suspect) something totally different. These references use "Lake of Fire" instead of the other root words (although "Hades" is brought back in a separate context as an anthropomorphized presence which rides alongside Death before being engulfed by the Lake of Fire). I believe that the references to Hell and the Lake of Fire in Revelation are also on a societal level (similar to the references in the Olivet Discourse but on a much more apocalyptic scale)....but thats a bit more complicated and involved topic...Ill only open that can of worms if people are interested..

King James Version
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire isn't hell. It's the complete end of a person before God remakes the earth. They are no more. Just as satan and death will be no more. They will cease to exist. If everyone was to be saved there would be no one thrown into this lake.

Rev 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

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You can call me Steve

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You can call me Steve

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You can call me Steve

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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