Christianity Quickly Shrinking in US

Halbhh

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Do you believe secular government is essential despite the fact secular government is also corrupt and always tends towards corruption?
Yes. We struggle along with these humans governments, which often do even worse than normal.... -- but it's where we are at here in this fallen world.

Scripture tells us more about this situation:

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Romans 8 NIV

But wonderfully, the Perfect will come:

As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the Perfect comes, the partial will pass away. ...

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
...
1 Corinthians 13 ESV
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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"Christianity" has been so distorted and perverted, so exploited and weaponized, I am not sorry to see it go. Maybe its departure will create space for the real thing.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Yes. We struggle along with these humans governments, which often do even worse than normal.... -- but it's where we are at here in this fallen world.

Scripture tells us more about this situation:

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Romans 8 NIV

But wonderfully, the Perfect will come:

As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the Perfect comes, the partial will pass away. ...

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
...
1 Corinthians 13 ESV

Why is it essential there be a government if it is going to be corrupt?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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The Barbarian

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I think it was Aristotelianism that led to the birth of effective science. The Muslims had that intellectual background in the middle ages. The Christians attained that through the work of Albert the Great and Thomas Aquinas.

Aristotle was a great scientist. And he acknowledged his debt to the Ionian Greek scientists like Democritus. Aristotle wasn't as inclined to experimentation as the Ionians.

The scientific method largely came to Europe via Roger Bacon and Robert of Lincoln. Democritus first formulated the method, which was received and enlarged upon by Islamic scholars, who influenced men like Bacon. A classic description of the way that Europe of Bacon's time initiated our Eurocentric world can be found in the classic The Rise of Christian Europe by Hugh Trevor-Roper.
https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Christian-Europe-Hugh-Trevor-Roper/dp/0155771256
 
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The Barbarian

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"Christianity" has been so distorted and perverted, so exploited and weaponized, I am not sorry to see it go. Maybe its departure will create space for the real thing.

There will always be a remnant. When the megachurches and politicized evangelicals are gone, that remnant will continue to be.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Aristotle was a great scientist. And he acknowledged his debt to the Ionian Greek scientists like Democritus. Aristotle wasn't as inclined to experimentation as the Ionians.

The scientific method largely came to Europe via Roger Bacon and Robert of Lincoln. Democritus first formulated the method, which was received and enlarged upon by Islamic scholars, who influenced men like Bacon. A classic description of the way that Europe of Bacon's time initiated our Eurocentric world can be found in the classic The Rise of Christian Europe by Hugh Trevor-Roper.
https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Christian-Europe-Hugh-Trevor-Roper/dp/0155771256

Islam, departed from scientific truth early on, especially as they focused on spreading their religion by the sword into the West.

Unlike Christianity, which built the institutions of education and science in the West and even in the East, Islamic Nations failed to do so as fundamentalist controlled the culture.
 
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The Barbarian

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Islam, departed from scientific truth early on, especially as they focused on spreading their religion by the sword into the West.

Actually, that's backwards. Islamic science flourished long after the Islamic conquests.

Unlike Christianity, which built the institutions of education and science in the West and even in the East, Islamic Nations failed to do so as fundamentalist controlled the culture.

That's a very recent problem. In the Middle Ages, learning and science were centered in the Islamic world.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Actually, that's backwards. Islamic science flourished long after the Islamic conquests.



That's a very recent problem. In the Middle Ages, learning and science were centered in the Islamic world.

Islam stopped expanding it's science and education when it started to spread in the Middle East and into Europe, by the 10th century. Fundamentalists took over the religion and failed to evolve as Judaism and Christianity did. It's why the West moved forward, and Islamic Nations stood still and pretty much still do.
If it was still the center of scientific development, how did the Islamic nations fall so far behind the West?

Recent?

The Catholic Church was the first provider of schools and universities in England. The earliest schools were cathedral and monastic schools established from the late sixth century onwards. 1100AD Foundation of Universities at Oxford and then later Cambridge 1534AD The English Reformation

History of Catholic Education
 
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The Barbarian

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Islam stopped expanding it's science and education when it started to spread in the Middle East and into Europe, by the 10th century.

Well, let's take a look...

The Science and Culture of Islamic Spain

No, that's not the case.
The Islamic Golden Age was a period of cultural, economic, and scientific flourishing in the history of Islam, traditionally dated from the 8th century to the 14th century.
Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia


If it was still the center of scientific development, how did the Islamic nations fall so far behind the West?

If Greek science was still the center of scientific development, how did they fall so far behind the Islamic scientists?

There was, in these times, preservation of classical learning in place in Europe, but very little scientific progress.
 
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The Barbarian

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Islam stopped expanding it's science and education when it started to spread in the Middle East and into Europe, by the 10th century.

Islamic scientists were at work well after that.
The Science and Culture of Islamic Spain

Ibn al-Nafis, in the 13th century, was a great biologist and anatomist, who first worked out pulmonary blood circulation, to give just one example.

Recent?

The Catholic Church was the first provider of schools and universities in England. The earliest schools were cathedral and monastic schools established from the late sixth century onwards. 1100AD Foundation of Universities at Oxford and then later Cambridge 1534AD The English Reformation

History of Catholic Education

The Church passed on much of classical knowledge. But it did very little science until the Renaissance, when Islamic science became known in Europe. About 1400, Islamic civilization began to decline as you suggest. But by then, much of their knowledge of biology, astronomy, math and other disciplines was passed on to Europe.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Islamic scientists were at work well after that.
The Science and Culture of Islamic Spain

Ibn al-Nafis, in the 13th century, was a great biologist and anatomist, who first worked out pulmonary blood circulation, to give just one example.



The Church passed on much of classical knowledge. But it did very little science until the Renaissance, when Islamic science became known in Europe. About 1400, Islamic civilization began to decline as you suggest. But by then, much of their knowledge of biology, astronomy, math and other disciplines was passed on to Europe.

Yeah according to a Islamic website you linked. All we have to do is look at the actual history of the West compared to the Middle East.
It's like night and day on the developments that were made. Sure,
Algebra began in Islam, but as I said previously, once the fundamentalists took control, if it wasn't in the Koran it was rejected.

Heck, they still blame the Crusades yet, Muslims were 200 miles outside of Paris 100 years before the first Crusade was called for. Martel drove
them out of France. Muslims ignore this part of history.

If Islam influenced Spain so much, why is it we don't see it in the Middle East today?

Muslims who settled in the West like Spain, developed educationally, because the West moved forward in educating people. That didn't happen in Islamic Nations and still doesn't. Too many wars between Islamic sects are probably the main cause.
 
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The Barbarian

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Yeah according to a Islamic website you linked.

It's true. The example I gave you for Ibn al-Nafis, for example. Or Omar Khayam, who is known mostly as a poet in the West, but was a ground-breaking mathematician in Iran.

Heck, they still blame the Crusades yet, Muslims were 200 miles outside of Paris 100 years before the first Crusade was called for. Martel drove
them out of France. Muslims ignore this part of history.

Ah, The Mayor of the Palace. "Charley the Hammer" as he was known to his contemporaries. A great military leader whose son deposed the Merovingian king and whose grandson, Charlemagne, took the battle to the Muslims in Spain. That pretty much put an end to Muslim expansion in Western Europe. The feudal system allowed the maintenance of an improved version of the Byzantine "cataphracts"; heavily armored troops on armored horses, that the Muslims never did figure out how to counter.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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It's true. The example I gave you for Ibn al-Nafis, for example. Or Omar Khayam, who is known mostly as a poet in the West, but was a ground-breaking mathematician in Iran.



Ah, The Mayor of the Palace. "Chuck the Hammer" as he was known to his contemporaries. A great military leader whose son deposed the Merovingian king and whose grandson, Charlemagne, took the battle to the Muslims in Spain. That pretty much put an end to Muslim expansion in Western Europe. The feudal system allowed the maintenance of an improved version of the Byzantine "cataphracts"; heavily armored troops on armored horses, that the Muslims never did figure out how to counter.

Despite your disparaging of Martel, have you asked why they were just 200 miles outside of Paris?

Fact is, Islam was spread by the sword, not intellectual influences.
 
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The Barbarian

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If Islam influenced Spain so much, why is it we don't see it in the Middle East today?

We do. The buildings of those universities are still there, but after about 1400, they were neglected and Islam entered a dark age, similar to the Western middle ages. They are only now coming out of it, except perhaps for Iran, superficially the most westernized of Islamic nations.
 
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The Barbarian

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Despite your disparaging of Martel, have you asked why they were just 200 miles outside of Paris?

I wouldn't disparage Charles Martel. He stopped Muslim expansion into Western Europe, reformed the government of the Frankish state, and was king in everything but name. His son Pepin bloodlessly deposed the Meriovingian king and became officially king. The Muslims were deep into Europe because western civilization was still in a dark age and unable to counter them.

Until the Hammer. It was a turning point in history. At the time, universities and science were centered in al-Andalus, in Southern Spain. Things quickly turned after that, (Barbarian checks) with the fall of Toledo in the 11th century and by 1492, the last Muslim kingdom in Spain fell to the Christians.
 
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HantsUK

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The earliest schools were cathedral and monastic schools established from the late sixth century onwards. 1100AD Foundation of Universities at Oxford and then later Cambridge 1534AD The English Reformation

For clarity: 1534 was the date when King Henry VIII was declared the supreme head of the Church of England. The University of Cambridge was already just over 300 years old at that point.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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For clarity: 1534 was the date when King Henry VIII was declared the supreme head of the Church of England. The University of Cambridge was already just over 300 years old at that point.

They were established in 1100 and created by the Catholic Church. 300 years later Henry VIII separated from the Catholic Church and made himself supreme head of the Church of England. Before Henry XVII, England was Catholic. Henry VIII even had St Thomas Moore as Lord High Chancellor under Henry VIII, who ended up having him beheaded.

Although the monastic schools were for monks, they still focused on education as being important and began in the late 6th century. It was the importance of education that eventually flowed into the elite of society and eventually to the general population.
 
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Hvizsgyak

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Christianity in the U.S. is quickly shrinking and may no longer be the majority religion within just a few decades, research finds

Most people leave Christianity between the ages of 15-29.

The article doesn't postulate reasons--just looks at things like demographic trends to see how immigration and other factors could affect the numbers.

What do you think some of the reasons are?

My possibilities:
- Christian hypocrisy and the vast gap between what is preached and what is practiced.
- Religion has become too politicized.
- Science disproving much of the "literal" interpretation of the Bible, and preachers insisting on a literal interpretation
- authoritarianism? Patriarchy?

What are some reasons you can think of? I think the first one I gave accounts for the greatest defections.

There is alot of "Christian hypocrisy" and "vast gap between what is preached and what is practiced" because there are so many denominations in Christianity. As I said in many post before, why would any one want to be a Christian when Christians can't even agree on simple doctrines of their Faith. If secular society saw that we are One in God, alot of secular people have a greater respect for Christians (and of course, we would more anger thrown at us by the secular world because they don't wants Christians to stand so strong for God).

The news media has been the one who dragged Christians into the political area. They see it as "killing two birds with one stone". Republicans are evil because they don't let a woman have the right to choose what they want to do with their body. And if religious people support Republican views then those religious people must be evil too and so is their God. That's how the news media sets us up.

If there were only one form of Christianity, the Church would be able to challenge science and their theories (that tend to act like truths).

Finally, authoritarianism and patriarchy are making a come back.
 
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