God's Great Free Gift of Salvation for Everyone

d taylor said:

Now that is a Judaizer position

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I think it's more faith that leads to better behavior. When that improved behavior is taken up because of one's faith, their works will be the product of that faith.

If you are saying that our actions have nothing to do with our salvation, isn't that kind of universalit-y?

rturner76 said:

It's not about faith OR works, It's faith AND works. Your works provide you with no salvation without faith and faith without works is dead. The two are complementary to each other and produce a more fruitful walk of faith than just one or the other.

A shorter way to say it is that good faith produces good works and good works are evidence of good faith.

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When it comes to salvation and righteousness, it is about faith separate from its works, the faith alone saves and justifies. Because

"Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10), ALL of it!
His and his alone (Revelation 19:1; Psalms 37:39).
Man contributes nothing, his works of faith contribute NOTHING,
for he must have nothing about which he could possibly boast.
(Romans 3:27, Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Ephesians 2:9)

rturner76 said:

No, it's not evidence of salvation but work done in faith is a record of that faith.

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It's a record of a faith that does not save, as with Orthodox Jews, because it is not faith in and trust on the atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous (justified; i.e., sentence of acquittal of guilt by the Judge, God) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:1-11).

Clare73 said:

It's a record of a faith that does not save, as with Orthodox Jews, because it is not faith in and trust on the atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous (justified; i.e., sentence of acquittal of guilt by the Judge, God) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:1-11).

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RIght, works alone do not save but mixed with faith you have the correct combo

Clare73 said:

When it comes to salvation and righteousness, it is about faith separate from its works, the faith alone saves and justifies. Because

"Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10), ALL of it!
His and his alone (Revelation 19:1; Psalms 37:39).
Man contributes nothing, his works of faith contribute NOTHING,
for he must have nothing about which he could possibly boast.
(Romans 3:27, Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Ephesians 2:9)

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Faith faith faith is great but can you say you have faith while you are at the whorehouse?

rturner76 said:

RIght, works alone do not save but mixed with faith you have the correct combo

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Not according to the NT word of God, where works are specifically excluded:

Faith, not its works, saves (Ephesians 2:8-9), and
faith, apart from its works, justifies (Romans 3:28).

Robert Pate said:

I didn't say it. Christ's chosen apostle said it. I just agree with him.

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You interpret what Paul said as justifying that we are free to be lawless and uphold you interpretation in the face of all of the other verses that speak against lawlessness, and in spite of how absurd it is to think that doing what is unrighteous is for the righteous. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law. Furthermore, even if your absurd interpretation were correct, then you would thereby become a lawless person that the law is for, so according to your own interpretation of that verse, you should obey God's law.

Clare73 said:

Not according to the NT word of God, where works are specifically excluded:

Faith, not its works, saves (Ephesians 2:8-9), and
faith, apart from its works, justifies (Romans 3:28).

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Are you saying the Bible contradicts itself because Jesus brother James has a different take on it.

rturner76 said:

Faith faith faith is great but can you say you have faith while you are at the whorehouse?

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Not the issue. . .the issue is which saves and justifies : faith apart from its works, or faith with its works.
The NT is clear--not by works; apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:28).

Time to come out of OT doctrine and into NT doctrine.

rturner76 said:

Are you saying the Bible contradicts itself because
Jesus brother James has a different take on it.

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Jesus' brother James was not an apostle chosen by Jesus or God.
Paul was both.

James uses justify to mean proof of righteousness.
Paul uses justify to mean acquisition of righteousness.

Clare73 said:

It's a record of a faith that does not save, as with Orthodox Jews, because it is not faith in and trust on the atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous (justified; i.e., sentence of acquittal of guilt by the Judge, God) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:1-11).

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It seems like you like many try to separate faith and works but they work hand in hand as we know Jesus and others said in both the old and new Testaments:

John 14:15 ESV
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1 Samuel 15:22 ESV
And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

James 1:22 ESV
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

Isaiah 1:19 ESV
If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;

Luke 6:46 ESV
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

John 14:23 ESV
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Hebrews 13:17 ESV
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Romans 6:16 ESV
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Are these lies or do we have to respond to our invitation to salvation?

Clare73 said:

Not the issue. . .the issue is which saves and justifies : faith apart from its works, or faith with its works.
The NT is clear--not by works; apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:28).

Time to come out of OT doctrine and into NT doctrine.

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So how can you tell if you have faith? If you live in a constant state of sin, how strong is your faith?

Clare73 said:

Jesus' brother James was not an apostle chosen by Jesus or God.
Paul was both.

Brother James uses justify to mean proof of righteousness already acquired.
Brother Paul uses justify to mean acquisition of righteousness.

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So the works of James should be removed from the Bible because it is not true?

rturner76 said:

It seems like you like many try to separate faith and works

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Don't blame it on me! . . .God's word states it. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:28).

Blame it on him!

I ain't takin' that rap!

rturner76 said:

So the works of James should be removed from the Bible because it is not true?

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Both are true.

Abraham's works were a proof of the righteousness God conferred by faith alone (James).
Abraham's righteousness was by faith alone (Paul).

Clare73 said:

Don't blame it on me! . . .God's word states it. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:28).

Blame it on him!

I ain't takin' the rap!

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So how do you reconsile that it also say things like:

John 14:21 ESV /
Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Matthew 7:21 ESV /
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Luke 11:28 ESV /
But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Joshua 1:8 ESV /
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

1 Peter 1:14 ESV /
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,

Exodus 19:5 ESV /
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;

Titus 2:9 ESV s
Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,

Hebrews 5:8
Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

2 John 1:6 ESV
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

Romans 8:28 ESV
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

2 Corinthians 10:5
We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

Romans 1:5
Through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

Ephesians 5:21
Submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Hebrews 12:9
Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

1 Peter 2:18 ESV
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.

Romans 12:1 ESV
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Acts 5:29 ESV
But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

Hebrews 5:9 ESV
And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

1 John 5:3 ESV
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.


Is not accepting god's grace a work in itself?

Clare73 said:

Both are true.

Abraham's works were a proof of the righteousness God conferred by faith alone (James).
Abraham's righteousness was by faith alone (Paul).

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So the Bible DOES contradict itself? I have shown plenty of texts that say obedience is a requirement. Do you disregard those verses or can you interpret them in a different way? It doesn't say how many works is required but DO SOMETHING if you love me is the message "If you love me, keep my commandments." etc.

Robert Pate said:

Acts 15:2-21. You will have to read about it.
James relents, Acts 15:19.

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James was not part of the men who came down from Judea or was he a member of the sect of the Pharisees who called for this. So where are you getting this idea that he (James) was a Judaizer. Verse 19 is not it.

rturner76 said:

I think it's more faith that leads to better behavior. When that improved behavior is taken up because of one's faith, their works will be the product of that faith.

If you are saying that our actions have nothing to do with our salvation, isn't that kind of universalit-y?

Click to expand...

No universalism is, all will eventually be saved, regardless of during their earthly life. They never trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

A Judaizer is any group who believes it takes more than faith to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. As is stated in Acts 15 the Judaizer's stated in takes not only faith in The Messiah but also

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
Also
“It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

So basically a Judaizer is one who believes salvation is by faith and works. The gentile version in a way has moved away from the law, but into obedience, repentance, baptism, commitment, etc.... But some do add in some parts of the law.

d taylor said:

No universalism is, all will eventually be saved, regardless of during their earthly life. They never trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

A Judaizer is any group who believes it takes more than faith to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. As is stated in Acts 15 the Judaizer's stated in takes not only faith in The Messiah but also

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
Also
“It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

So basically a Judaizer is one who believes salvation is by faith and works. The gentile version in a way has moved away from the law, but into obedience, repentance, baptism, commitment, etc.... But some do add in some parts of the law.

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No, I'm not saying you need to be circumcised. I am saying you cannot claim to have faith if you don't change your ways. Do you just throw out all of the passages that Jesus states about obedience? Yes, you are given faith for free but how do you keep it? By living as a drunken whoremonger? No, we live by faith which produces good works.

You seem to think I am saying you need works more than faith or alone from faith. THat's not the case. I am saying true faith produces good works. Do you disagree with that?