Oh boy - I wondered what this whole Mar A Lago thing was about

Pommer said:

But the cases are not in any way similar: Clinton was paying out-of-pocket to have audio-documentation done in real-time (while Clinton is still in office), and Trump absconded with government-owned paper assets, after he left office.

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That's one, what about others?

MMXX said:

You mean security surveillance tapes? Your statement didn't make much sense to me:

DaisyDay said: ↑
Sure, the precedent being that if Trump would have paid out of his own pocket to have some tapes made that had no part of his official duties, then he would be allowed to keep them as private papers.

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No, the tapes we were just referencing.

MMXX said:

That's one, what about others?

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What others?

wing2000 said:

Of course...but there is no precedent for what Trump did.

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There is no precedent for what the DOJ and FBI did.

Postvieww said:

There is no precedent for what the DOJ and FBI did.

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It's almost as if unprecedented actions by one party can lead to unprecedented actions by another as a reaction. Whoda thunk?

Postvieww said:

There is no precedent for what the DOJ and FBI did.

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Well of course. The actions of the former president were unprecedented

wing2000 said:

Well of course. The actions of the former president were unprecedented

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No not really!

Postvieww said:

No not really!

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No? What other President's did something similar (and note the above discussion on the Clinton tapes and why they are not similar)?

SimplyMe said:

No? What other President's did something similar (and note the above discussion on the Clinton tapes and why they are not similar)?

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Nixon, Ford, Bush 1, Bush 2, Obama

Postvieww said:

Nixon, Ford, Bush 1, Bush 2, Obama

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Nixon may have, which was the entire reason for the Presidential Records Act (PRA). As for Bush 1, Bush 2, and Obama, what evidence do you have. It is also worth nothing that most Presidential libraries are run by the National Archives (NARA).

And, to give you an example, Trump falsely claimed that Pres. Obama "kept" thousands of documents for his library. This is untrue, as stated by the National Archives (NARA). Pres. Obama turned all his Presidential documents over to NARA and they are being kept by NARA -- Pres. Obama has no control over how or where those documents are kept. NARA is in the process of making copies of the unclassified documents for the Obama library, where those copies will be available.

So where is your evidence that any of those named Presidents (at least, since the PRA was passed, so after Ford) kept documents from their Presidencies?

SimplyMe said:

Nixon may have, which was the entire reason for the Presidential Records Act (PRA). As for Bush 1, Bush 2, and Obama, what evidence do you have. It is also worth nothing that most Presidential libraries are run by the National Archives (NARA).

And, to give you an example, Trump falsely claimed that Pres. Obama "kept" thousands of documents for his library. This is untrue, as stated by the National Archives (NARA). Pres. Obama turned all his Presidential documents over to NARA and they are being kept by NARA -- Pres. Obama has no control over how or where those documents are kept. NARA is in the process of making copies of the unclassified documents for the Obama library, where those copies will be available.

So where is your evidence that any of those named Presidents (at least, since the PRA was passed, so after Ford) kept documents from their Presidencies?

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What Tump did or did not do has not yet been litigated except in the press and on this forum. There have many disputes with former Presidents over documents. I have no proof in my possession. You have the same access to the historical record as do I. This current abuse of power, and political use of DOJ and FBI is what is unprecedented. The current swarm of warrants against anyone associated with Trump is what is unprecedented here, given little to no interest in investigations for shady dealings on the other side.

Postvieww said:

What Tump did or did not do has not yet been litigated except in the press and on this forum. There have many disputes with former Presidents over documents. I have no proof in my possession. You have the same access to the historical record as do I. This current abuse of power, and political use of DOJ and FBI is what is unprecedented. The current swarm of warrants against anyone associated with Trump is what is unprecedented here, given little to no interest in investigations for shady dealings on the other side.

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What I hear you say is you have no actual evidence, so instead you will restate the same unsupported claims, take your ball, and go home.

It is unprecedented only because what Trump did was unprecedented -- other Presidents all turned over records to the National Archives (NARA), in accordance with the Presidential Records Act, and no subpoena -- much less search warrant -- was required to obtain any documents, much less classified documents, back from a former President.

Again, the one actual exception you can point to is where the National Archives wanted tapes created during Clinton's Presidency, where Bill Clinton was interviewed by an author to write a book after Clinton's presidency was ended. Yes, Clinton took NARA to court over who had the right to those tapes and, since they clearly had nothing to do with governing (didn't fit the definition of "Presidential Records" per the Act), the court ruled that the records were personal and Clinton could keep them.

In Trump's case, you'll notice his lawyers have never even tried to claim they are "personal records" that he has kept -- and in the case of Classified documents, there is no way to claim they were personal. Additionally, Trump's lawyers, after the subpoena, stated on the record that former Pres. Trump no longer had any Classified documents. As the search showed, Trump did still have Classified documents at Mar-A-Lago -- again, Trump cannot be compared to any President and there is a good reason you can't support the claim (and there would be plenty in the news and in court records) if this had happened with other Presidents.

Postvieww said:

What Tump did or did not do has not yet been litigated except in the press and on this forum. There have many disputes with former Presidents over documents. I have no proof in my possession. You have the same access to the historical record as do I. This current abuse of power, and political use of DOJ and FBI is what is unprecedented. The current swarm of warrants against anyone associated with Trump is what is unprecedented here, given little to no interest in investigations for shady dealings on the other side.

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There is no abuse of power by the FBI or DOJ. They were exceedingly lenient with Trump because, as other users have posted, this was uncharted territory. Trump continued to refuse to comply with requests for classified documents, so the FBI raided his home. That's not abuse, that is literally the system working the way it is supposed to.

Postvieww said:

What Tump did or did not do has not yet been litigated except in the press and on this forum. There have many disputes with former Presidents over documents. I have no proof in my possession. You have the same access to the historical record as do I. This current abuse of power, and political use of DOJ and FBI is what is unprecedented. The current swarm of warrants against anyone associated with Trump is what is unprecedented here, given little to no interest in investigations for shady dealings on the other side.

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Trump's behavior is unprecedented. Hence his apparent criminal conduct is the cause of the FBI actions.

Postvieww said:

There is no precedent for what the DOJ and FBI did.

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That's not true. The DOJ and FBI have investigated any number of instances of the crimes listed on in the search warrant for Donald's house.

KCfromNC said:

That's not true. The DOJ and FBI have investigated any number of instances of the crimes listed on in the search warrant for Donald's house.

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Could you please list all of those alleged crimes listed on the search warrent? Thanks

Postvieww said:

Could you please list all of those alleged crimes listed on the search warrent? Thanks

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When did you start researching this topic of Mar-a-Lago warrant and search because it seems as though you know very little about it?

Hank77 said:

When did you start researching this topic of Mar-a-Lago warrant and search because it seems as though you know very little about it?

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Well now I was just using the tactics that have been continually thrown at me. When I make a statement in a post the cries for “ where is your evidence “ seem to dominate the responses. I guess maybe many forums operate with a obvious slant to one side.

Postvieww said:

Could you please list all of those alleged crimes listed on the search warrent? Thanks

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US Code 793:

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

US Code 1519:

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

US Code 2071:

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

Yttrium said:

US Code 793:

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

US Code 1519:

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

US Code 2071:

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

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That's it? Three code violations? Is that all they got? Hardly more than a few traffic tickets. No big deal. Fake laws anyway. Just some paper hanging issues.