Should the Creed be prefaced in some way?

Paidiske

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What I really hate is the fairly common habit of making long, irrelevant, mostly inane announcements after the Creed. "Today we've got cake and deviled eggs provided by Mrs. . ." "Ladies monthly tea is at 1 o'clock this Thursday." "The Fire Department is selling chicken dinners. . ."

I agree. Why do we do that? I can read the bulletin. The church's calendar is on the website.

Let's face it; there's no great place in the service for announcements. However, I have found two things to be true.

1. No matter how many other ways I communicate things, for some people, unless it is said at the notices, it has not been communicated. They seem to need someone at the front saying, "Listen up, folks! This is important and you need to act on this." Or they'll look at you blankly weeks later saying "I didn't know about that."

2. Perhaps partly because of the above, various people and groups in the parish will feel slighted or offended if I don't announce matters relevant to them. It is as if they have been relegated to unimportance. So for the sake of keeping the peace, some things must be said at the notices.

I try to keep notices brief and only mention things which really do need action, and which are relevant to all or most parishioners in some way, but I won't get away with not having them at all. I tend to put them before the final hymn and blessing.

By the way, given your nonchalance concerning lectionaries, would it be fair to say that you are blessed with a certain tranquility concerning the liturgy provided something is not obviously wrong, disproportionate, or incompatible with the Anglican faith as you received it?

Hhmm. I am flexible. I am prepared to engage with and enjoy a variety of liturgical forms and practices. So perhaps this is true. If I have a strong preference it would probably be this; keep the liturgy simple. Let the central things stand out clearly, and avoid cluttering them with many accretions.

But that said, there are boundaries, and one thing which does irritate me no end is clergy who make oaths to use authorised forms of services and then cheerfully ignore those oaths. I'm not talking about small creative flourishes but forms of service which bear no resemblance to something in a prayer book!
 
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The Liturgist

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Let's face it; there's no great place in the service for announcements. However, I have found two things to be true.

1. No matter how many other ways I communicate things, for some people, unless it is said at the notices, it has not been communicated. They seem to need someone at the front saying, "Listen up, folks! This is important and you need to act on this." Or they'll look at you blankly weeks later saying "I didn't know about that."

2. Perhaps partly because of the above, various people and groups in the parish will feel slighted or offended if I don't announce matters relevant to them. It is as if they have been relegated to unimportance. So for the sake of keeping the peace, some things must be said at the notices.

I try to keep notices brief and only mention things which really do need action, and which are relevant to all or most parishioners in some way, but I won't get away with not having them at all. I tend to put them before the final hymn and blessing.

Indeed, I don’t think @Shane R objects to, and I certainly do not object to, notifications, however, the (mis)placement of them can have a deleterious effect on the service. This is why I like the pan-Eastern/Oriental/Assyrian approach of putting notices at the end of the liturgy, because not only does such a position avoid disrupting the service, or at least minimize it, but also, if an announcement is made midway through the liturgy that people have to act on, it’s a safe bet that some of the people who would act on it will have forgotten by the end.

Hhmm. I am flexible. I am prepared to engage with and enjoy a variety of liturgical forms and practices. So perhaps this is true. If I have a strong preference it would probably be this; keep the liturgy simple. Let the central things stand out clearly, and avoid cluttering them with many accretions.

Just out of curiosity, how do you define accretion? I once had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine who might become my bishop in which I challenged him to consider that liturgical accretions as defined by Vatican II do not exist. This was admittedly a hyperbolic assertion, but there are some things that look like accretions which are actually authentic and original, particularly in the West Syriac Rite, which is of mutual interest to us. We know this based both on manuscript evidence and the extreme similiarity between the Syriac Orthodox liturgy and the pre-Vatican II Maronite liturgy, both of which feature extremely flowery prayers which I find to be beautiful and distinctly Semitic, as befits an Aramaic liturgy. Likewise it is obvious that the several of the oldest complete liturgical texts, such as the Alexandrian-style Anaphora of the St. Mark/St. Cyril family from the Euchologion of Serapion of Thmuis and the Antioch-style Anaphora of St. Hippolytus from the Apostolic Tradition only contain the parts intended for the bishop or celebrant, and direct responses, as opposed to the parts for the deacon or choir and the rubrics, and consequently if one reads the Greek Divine Liturgy of St. Mark or the Coptic Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril or the Ethiopian Anaphora of the Apostles, there is a great deal of additional material present which looks like accretion but really isn’t (so in a sense, in adapting Hippolytus into Eucharistic Prayer 2 without looking at the admittedly obscure Ethiopian version which has been in continual use since antiquity, the Consilium under Bugnini and those who copied their work, like the 1979 Episcopal BCP, arguably did inadvertently cut the liturgy to the quick, if not beyond; this also applies to the adaptation of the Egyptian form of the Liturgy of St. Basil, Eucharistic Prayer no. 4 in the Novus Ordo and Eucharistic Prayer D in the the 79 BCP).

Of course accretions do exist and some liturgies have them, a good example being the attachment of the Last Gospel (John 1:1-14) to the Armenian Rite, and certain historic additions to the traditional Roman Rite, like the Leonine Prayers said at the end of a Low Mass. One could argue the Low Mass itself is an accretion, although it represents a simplification, and the Missa Cantata insofar as it is a Low Mass with the music of a Solemn Mass is a simplification of the latter.

So perhaps it might be fair to say there are good accretions and bad accretions? Or if you prefer, valid additions as opposed to pointless accretions? For example, they are not organically a part of the Anglican liturgical patrimony, if a new BCP came along that featured the spectacularly long benediction at the end of the Byzantine Rite or some sort of concluding litany I would expect would annoy you to no end, and it would annoy me to.

But that said, there are boundaries, and one thing which does irritate me no end is clergy who make oaths to use authorised forms of services and then cheerfully ignore those oaths. I'm not talking about small creative flourishes but forms of service which bear no resemblance to something in a prayer book!

Indeed. The 1979 BCP has “Rite III” but it is not supposed to be used for the main Sunday service, but there are parishes which just completely do their own thing, and get away with it, and even get lauded for doing so, for instance, St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco, which has a problematic liturgy even on the basis of the text alone, and that’s before you get into the icon of the Khangxi Emperor who prohibited Christianity in China, and other dubious figures, and the “liturgical dance” which is directly adapted from Shaker worship (the Shakers were a peculiar sect, mainly in America, which believed in complete celibacy who historically perpetuated their existence by adopting children and raising them in the community, but recently have more or less died out; their worship was characterized by dancing for hours on end in distinct round meeting halls).
 
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Paidiske

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Just out of curiosity, how do you define accretion?

Well, I'm not sure I've ever had to ask myself that question in quite that way, and perhaps I meant something slightly different even to accretion.

But there are points in the liturgy which have (in our books, at least) a variety of optional prayers or responses or what-have-you, which might be used alone or in some combination. An example would be immediately after concluding the Great Thanksgiving and before going on to receive communion.

And generally (though I don't go so far as to say without exception) my preference is to keep most of those optional prayers out. I think the liturgy is experienced more powerfully if the central reality of what we're doing here is kept the focus, and we don't clutter it up with lots of added words which can become a distraction. I think my central issue is, "Does this form of words - or action, or whatever - enhance or detract from the key point at this moment in the liturgy?"

But that is my personal preference, and what I personally find helpful, and not the opinion of a liturgical scholar about what is most authentic or original.
 
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The Liturgist

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Well, I'm not sure I've ever had to ask myself that question in quite that way, and perhaps I meant something slightly different even to accretion.

But there are points in the liturgy which have (in our books, at least) a variety of optional prayers or responses or what-have-you, which might be used alone or in some combination. An example would be immediately after concluding the Great Thanksgiving and before going on to receive communion.

And generally (though I don't go so far as to say without exception) my preference is to keep most of those optional prayers out. I think the liturgy is experienced more powerfully if the central reality of what we're doing here is kept the focus, and we don't clutter it up with lots of added words which can become a distraction. I think my central issue is, "Does this form of words - or action, or whatever - enhance or detract from the key point at this moment in the liturgy?"

But that is my personal preference, and what I personally find helpful, and not the opinion of a liturgical scholar about what is most authentic or original.

I think we are most likely on the same page. The only caveat I would attach to your statement is that in general I am opposed to modifying ancient liturgical texts, for example, I do not think the Roman Mass was enhanced by the Novus Ordo Missae. However, I would argue there is a need for new liturgical texts as the church expands (Australia and the Southern Hemisphere is a place where I would argue new liturgical material is warranted in some liturgical rites, because some rites assume the climate and seasons of a particular place, for example, the Northern Hemisphere and Easter, and in the Coptic liturgy, there are petitions in the litanies for the blessing of “the crown of the year and its goodness” which of course refer to the Nile flooding which is so important to Egyptian agriculture).

In all cases however, new material should, as you say, enhance rather than detract from the liturgical action at that point in the service. One reason why I love the Byzantine and Syriac rites so much, and also the Anglican, is these three rites have particularly powerful and expressive statements at key moments during the liturgy, for example, the Byzantine “Thine own of thine own we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all and for all” following the Epiclesis, and in the traditional BCP, the really beautiful collects (one of which, as is well known, is of Byzantine origin, that attributed to St. Chrysostom, although he probably didn’t write it; if any famous saint did, it would more likely have been St. Basil) at the end of the Divine Offices, and also the distinctly Cranmerian introductions to certain services, which begin with “Dearly beloved brethren.” I also personally like the Prayer of Humble Access although I understand and acknowledge your technical objection to it.

My opposition to changing existing liturgies of antiquity is for the same reasons that CS Lewis objected to it, that being that unwarranted meddling with the service can disorient the congregation and cause them to lose focus.
 
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Paidiske

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My opposition to changing existing liturgies of antiquity is for the same reasons that CS Lewis objected to it, that being that unwarranted meddling with the service can disorient the congregation and cause them to lose focus.

If we are talking about changing things from week to week, so that there is no familiar flow of worship, I'd agree (to a point). But if we're talking about changes on a much larger time scale, my agreement fades. Most of our congregations don't have knowledge of, or care about, liturgies of antiquity and the ways they may or may not have been meddled with, and are not disoriented by adaptations for local custom and need.
 
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The Liturgist

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Parishes that use the Anglican Missal will generally omit the Creed in weekday Masses. It bothers me on the rare occasions I'm in one. I've even seen such parishes omit the sermon too!

The absence of the creed bothers me more than the absence of the sermon, although interestingly this appears to be a vestige of the Roman Rite as opposed to an Anglican innovation.
 
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If we are talking about changing things from week to week, so that there is no familiar flow of worship, I'd agree (to a point). But if we're talking about changes on a much larger time scale, my agreement fades. Most of our congregations don't have knowledge of, or care about, liturgies of antiquity and the ways they may or may not have been meddled with, and are not disoriented by adaptations for local custom and need.

It seems we are more or less in agreement, in that I do not object, but rather actively support, and indeed earlier mentioned the legitimacy, of adaptations and new liturgical texts to accomodate local customs and needs not anticipated with an earlier liturgy; to say otherwise would risk a one size fits all approach, and I am really opposed to that when it comes to liturgics. Even liturgies which appear to be entirely homogenous at first glance are in fact not: for example, the Byzantine Rite uses common text (albeit a few different versions of that text, chiefly the Sabaite Typikon used by the Ukrainians, Russians, Georgians, Serbians, the Athonite monks, the Church of Jerusalem, and some Poles, the Violakis Typikon, used by most everyone else, and the older recension of the Sabaite Typikon used by the Old Believers / Old Rite Orthodox, and there used to be others), however, even where the text is the same, for example, the Serbian and Ukrainian churches both use Church Slavonic, the music, vestments and certain observances are different in accordance with the local cultures (the Serbians for instance instead of celebrating their Name Day celebrate something called a Slava, which is a distinct attribute of their culture).

So once again we find ourselves in general agreement, even though in specifics we differ insofar as I prefer hearing creeds to sermons. This is probably due to some time I have spent in monasteries where there are no sermons, and also my fondness in the Anglican context for Choral Evensong, which usually lacks a homily.

One thing I would love to see someone try to revive in the Western church would be the sung metrical homilies composed by the likes of St. Ephraim the Syrian. As soon as the opportunity for a supplemental service other than the main Sunday service presents itself, if I can get a good choral setting, I intend to sing a homily, or at least recite one in meter.
 
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Christoph Maria

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This is why I like the pan-Eastern/Oriental/Assyrian approach of putting notices at the end of the liturgy, because not only does such a position avoid disrupting the service, or at least minimize it, but also, if an announcement is made midway through the liturgy that people have to act on, it’s a safe bet that some of the people who would act on it will have forgotten by the end.
The RCC does the same, at least according to my experience...
 
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Christoph Maria

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The absence of the creed bothers me more than the absence of the sermon, although interestingly this appears to be a vestige of the Roman Rite as opposed to an Anglican innovation.
That is correct! :) On weekdays there usually is no sermon in the RCC.
(I was a Catholic before I "converted"...)
 
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