No Indigenous Children's Bodies Found

JosephZ · Apr 27, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
Well, as the article states, not one body was found at the alleged site. If this was a false claim, what else was ?

The search at the Kamloops site was prompted because of the discovery of a child’s rib bone; former students testified that children died there, parents testified that their children never returned from the school; there were 51 documented deaths at the school, and ground penetrating radar indicated that there are in all likelihood over 200 graves on the school grounds. The evidence is overwhelming that deaths occurred at the school and children were buried there. I doubt anyone is going to be digging up and disturbing the resting place of those children to satisfy a few deniers.

JimR-OCDS said:
You actually believe the school killed children because of mistreatment and abuse ?

I believe that children died because of mistreatment and abuse as well as some possibly being intentionally killed because history shows that this happened not only at this school, but at countless residential schools across Canada and the United States.

Homeowner · Apr 27, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
The Catholic Church doesn't run the school

School was run by

Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate | Serving the World's Poor

You are really saying Vatican has no say on their mission ?

JimR-OCDS · Apr 27, 2022

Homeowner said:
School was run by

Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate | Serving the World's Poor

You are really saying Vatican has no say on their mission ?

That's my understanding about the Oblates who ran the school in Canada.

They all have their own independent provinces.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Apr 28, 2022

It’s not just residential schools, Woodlawn was a home for children of any race with handicaps. Mass graves were found there too, same province, and it was not swept under the rug as this should not.

JimR-OCDS · Apr 28, 2022

maidinwhoseimage said:
It’s not just residential schools, Woodlawn was a home for children of any race with handicaps. Mass graves were found there too, same province, and it was not swept under the rug as this should not.

"too?" As the articles have shown, no mass graves have been found and not one body
was found.

JosephZ · Apr 28, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
"too?" As the articles have shown, no mass graves have been found and not one body was found.

There are officially 51 confirmed deaths of children that occurred at the Kamloops school. When you look at the names of the children that died, the first thing you will notice is their names are not indigenous names, they are names that these children were forced to take.

Adrian Reynold G. George, Agnes Michou, Ambrose Alexander, Annie Frank, Annie Lucy Andrew, Arcelle William, Archie Oxime, Bobby Joseph Bell, Caroline Harris, Christine Jacob, Christine Josephine Joy Joseph, Christine Jules, Clarina Matthew, Eileen Joseph, Florence Morgan, Francis Alec, Francis Maximin, Francis Moses, Frederick Lecamp, George Michel, George Petel, George Purdaby, Gertrude James, Gladys Chapman, Henry Lulu, Josephine Louie, John Lecamp, Julienne Sharon Dennis, Kathleen Michel, Leonard Major, Leslie Lewis, Louise Seymour, Lucine Whimpin, Marguerite Fallardeau, Mary Anne Soulle, Mary Francois, Minnie Spy, Nellie Fallardeau, Pearl Joe, Peter Michael Purdaby, Ronald Frezie, Rose Adrian, Rose Marie Adolph, Sandra Seymour, Shirley Link, Sophie George, Sophie Pettel, Theophile Dick Billy, Violet William, Willard Frank William, Willie Joseph.

These children were forcibly taken from their parents and culture, striped of their given names, forbidden to speak their native language, and died. It doesn't matter what the cause of death was whether it be from natural causes, accident, maltreatment or abuse, what this school and others like it did was evil. This was repeated at hundreds of similar residential schools across the United States and Canada.

What makes you so skeptical about what took place at this school? Is the testimony of multiple eye witnesses, documented deaths, a child's rib bone, and ground penetrating radar detecting graves at the school really not enough to convince you that additional deaths beyond those that are known took place at this school?

JimR-OCDS · Apr 28, 2022

JosephZ said:
There are officially 51 confirmed deaths of children that occurred at the Kamloops school. When you look at the names of the children that died, the first thing you will notice is their names are not indigenous names, they are names that these children were forced to take.

Adrian Reynold G. George, Agnes Michou, Ambrose Alexander, Annie Frank, Annie Lucy Andrew, Arcelle William, Archie Oxime, Bobby Joseph Bell, Caroline Harris, Christine Jacob, Christine Josephine Joy Joseph, Christine Jules, Clarina Matthew, Eileen Joseph, Florence Morgan, Francis Alec, Francis Maximin, Francis Moses, Frederick Lecamp, George Michel, George Petel, George Purdaby, Gertrude James, Gladys Chapman, Henry Lulu, Josephine Louie, John Lecamp, Julienne Sharon Dennis, Kathleen Michel, Leonard Major, Leslie Lewis, Louise Seymour, Lucine Whimpin, Marguerite Fallardeau, Mary Anne Soulle, Mary Francois, Minnie Spy, Nellie Fallardeau, Pearl Joe, Peter Michael Purdaby, Ronald Frezie, Rose Adrian, Rose Marie Adolph, Sandra Seymour, Shirley Link, Sophie George, Sophie Pettel, Theophile Dick Billy, Violet William, Willard Frank William, Willie Joseph.

These children were forcibly taken from their parents and culture, striped of their given names, forbidden to speak their native language, and died. It doesn't matter what the cause of death was whether it be from natural causes, accident, maltreatment or abuse, what this school and others like it did was evil. This was repeated at hundreds of similar residential schools across the United States and Canada.

What makes you so skeptical about what took place at this school? Is the testimony of multiple eye witnesses, documented deaths, a child's rib bone, and ground penetrating radar detecting graves at the school really not enough to convince you that additional deaths beyond those that are known took place at this school?

They died, but from what ?

As one article showed there are marked graves next to clergy and nuns of people who died
of tuberculosis, influenzas and other diseases. Keep in mind the school operated during the Great
Pandemic of 1918.

As far as being taken from their parents, that would of course be wrong, unless the parents
willingly sent their kids to a boarding school, believing they'd be home every night, but found out differently. The problem for me is, we're only hearing
one side of the story as the other side are mostly dead.

I don't know, but it's certain that the 215 bodies in a mass grave do not exists, which the article is about.

If you want to go down another path, open another thread and address that.

JosephZ · Apr 28, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
They died, but from what ?

As one article showed there are marked graves next to clergy and nuns of people who died
of tuberculosis, influenzas and other diseases. Keep in mind the school operated during the Great
Pandemic of 1918.

Once again, it doesn't matter what the children died from. They shouldn't have been there to begin with.

It has also been well documented that these schools were inadequate, unsanitary, lacked qualified staff, and had shortages of food. Malnutrition and the substandard living conditions weakened the children's immune system and contributed to the deaths of the children. Children at these schools died at a much higher rate than the children in the general population.

JimR-OCDS said:
As far as being taken from their parents, that would of course be wrong, unless the parents willingly sent their kids to a boarding school, believing they'd be home every night, but found out differently. The problem for me is, we're only hearing one side of the story as the other side are mostly dead.

Have you ever read the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report? There's evidence from both sides of the story. There are documented cases written by government officials of children being taken against the parents will at the time they occurred. There's also the testimony from the parents of many of the children. In 1920 the law required the children to go to school or the parents could be fined or jailed. The Commission's final report concluded that the Indian Residential School system was an attempted Cultural Genocide.

Do you not think it was wrong for the schools to make the children take Christian/European names and forbid them to speak their native language?

It was always the intent of the government to separate the children from the parents as the quotes below clearly show.

When the school is on the reserve the child lives with its parents, who are savages; he is surrounded by savages, and though he may learn to read and write his habits, and training and mode of thought are Indian. He is simply a savage who can read and write. It has been strongly pressed on myself, as the head of the Department, that Indian children should be withdrawn as much as possible from the parental influence, and the only way to do that would be to put them in central training industrial schools where they will acquire the habits and modes of thought of white men. - Prime Minister, John A. Macdonald

If you wish to educate these children you must separate them from their parents during the time that they are being educated. If you leave them in the family they may know how to read and write, but they still remain savages, whereas by separating them in the way proposed, they acquire the habits and tastes—it is to be hoped only the good tastes—of civilized people - Public Works Minister Hector Langevin

“The objections of the Indians are that they do not like to send their children away nor to have them attended to by a doctor, nor to let them work, and also to their taking the habits of the white people.” - Principal Joseph Hugonnard

It is very difficult to get the parents to allow the children to be sent away to school, more especially those Indians who are in any way connected with the deposed chief White Bear and his sons, who will have nothing to do with anything in the shape of education, and who try to live as they did before treaty was made with the North-west Indians, and they will hardly allow any one to talk on the subject of education to them and simply say that their ‘God’ did not intend them to be educated like white people; they will not allow that there would be any bene´t to be derived from having their children taught, and say they would much prefer to see their little ones dead than at school. - Canadian Government Indian Agent David Halpin

The Indian Act amendments of 1920

Every Indian child between the ages of seven and fifteen years who is
physically able shall attend such day, industrial or boarding school as
may be designated by the Superintendent General for the full periods
during which such school is open each year...

Any parent, guardian or person with whom an Indian child is residing
who fails to cause such child, being between the ages aforesaid, to attend
school as required by this section after having received three days notice
so to do by a truant officer shall, on the complaint of the truant officer,
be liable on summary conviction before a justice of the peace or Indian
agent to a fine of not more than two dollars and costs, or imprisonment
for a period not exceeding ten days or both, and such child may be
arrested without a warrant and conveyed to school by the truant officer

JimR-OCDS said:
I don't know, but it's certain that the 215 bodies in a mass grave do not exists, which the article is about.

You are correct; 215 bodies are not in a mass grave on the school property. However, the ground penetrating radar did detect over 200 individual graves on the property in an area where a child's rib bone was discovered. There's no reason to believe that these graves that have been discovered do not contain bodies.

JimR-OCDS · Apr 28, 2022

JosephZ said:
Once again, it doesn't matter what the children died from. They shouldn't have been there to begin with.

It does matter and the accusations have turned out to be false. You also don't know why
the children were there to begin with.

The school operated from 1890 and it was the government who sent the children with
the goal in acculturation of Indigenous children. Was this a good idea ? Hindsight says
no, but what was the reasoning behind it in the first place ?

Again, whatever took place at the school, good or bad, is not the subject of the thread,
The subject is that the report of 215 to as many 1000 bodies of children being buried
in a mass grave was not found. As the headline states, not one body was uncovered.

I'm sure what took place at the school is more complex than what we're hearing about it
today.

JosephZ · Apr 28, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
You also don't know why the children were there to begin with.

I do know why the children were there and apparently you do as well.

JimR-OCDS said:
The school operated from 1890 and it was the government who sent the children with the goal in acculturation of Indigenous children.

JimR-OCDS said:
The subject is that the report of 215 to as many 1000 bodies of children being buried in a mass grave was not found. As the headline states, not one body was uncovered.

I don't know where you got the number of 1,000 from, I've only read about 200 to 215. Regardless of the number, the reason not a single body has been uncovered is because there hasn't been an attempt made to recover the bodies.

JimR-OCDS · Apr 29, 2022

JosephZ said:
I do know why the children were there and apparently you do as well.

I don't know where you got the number of 1,000 from, I've only read about 200 to 215. Regardless of the number, the reason not a single body has been uncovered is because there hasn't been an attempt made to recover the bodies.

It was reported in the NYT's and elsewhere that 215 bodies were found and that their COULD BE
as many as 1000.

No one body was ever found according to the article.

JosephZ · Apr 29, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
It was reported in the NYT's and elsewhere that 215 bodies were found and that their COULD BE as many as 1000.

I looked at the NYT site and did a search for all of the stories about the graves found at the Kamloops school and they all mentioned 215 bodies. There were a couple of stories that mentioned the 751 bodies at a school in the province of Saskatchewan along with the 215 found at the Kamloops school, so maybe the the claim of 1,000 bodies was a combination of the two or of multiple schools.

JimR-OCDS · Apr 29, 2022

JosephZ said:
I looked at the NYT site and did a search for all of the stories about the graves found at the Kamloops school and they all mentioned 215 bodies. There were a couple of stories that mentioned the 751 bodies at a school in the province of Saskatchewan along with the 215 found at the Kamloops school, so maybe the the claim of 1,000 bodies was a combination of the two or of multiple schools.

It was the Canadaian's Commission who stated that there could be as many as 1000. However,
it's now known that the Commission used two different reports from the school and the names of
children who died were counted twice.

Here's what the article says:

In fact each trimester, school principals reported the names of students attending school to be funded by the government and specified the names of any students who had died. But “in many cases,” the Report says, school principals simply reported on the number of children who had died in the previous year, without identification. Or, they might give a total of the number of students who had died since a specific school opened, but with no indication of the name, year, or cause of death.

The Commission included all these unnamed students in the total of student deaths. That means that student deaths could have been counted twice: both in the trimester report by the principals and in the general compilation with no names. The Commission admitted that this possibility exists that some of the deaths recorded in the Named Register might also be included in the Unnamed Register.[18]

This obviously biased method inflates greatly the number of missing students and the actual state of knowledge surrounding their deaths. And this flawed information is what lies at the root of the assumption that any unnamed students disappeared without their parents’ being informed and that the schools crudely buried them in mass graves.

It is likely that this methodological gap relates to the years prior to 1950 because the death rate recorded by the Commission in residential schools from 1921 to 1950 (named and unnamed deaths) is twice as high as that of Canadian youth in the general population aged five to fourteen for the same years. This mortality rate averaged about four deaths per year for every 1,000 youth attending the schools. Their deaths were mostly due to tuberculosis and influenza when the Commission could identify the cause.

On the other hand, the mortality rate in residential schools was actually comparable to the Canadian average from 1950 to 1965, again for youth aged five to fourteen.[19] That drop from the previous period is most likely the result of the inoculation by vaccines that took place in the residential schools as in other Canadian schools.

Erik Nelson · Sep 12, 2022

Cowessess chief, Catholic archdiocese confirm grave markers at cemetery site 'destroyed' in ‘60s - MooseJawToday.com

Under various circumstances, normal grave markers have been removed from former school sites, as the grounds have been transferred to others (and other purposes)

"Unmarked" today does not automatically imply "buried in secret" yesterday

Tropical Wilds · Sep 15, 2022

If anybody wants the actual story, it’s here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...-residential-school-215-exhumations-1.6460796

In short, the discovery of the probable grave site grave led the chief of Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation to declare the traditional 1 year of mourning as is customary by their people. That one year ended in May and now they’re trying to work as a nation and a people to connect to/with the closest relatives of the deceased as well as working with their spiritual leaders to decide if the bodies should be exhumed and returned to the families for burial, or if the site should be left undisturbed as is. Religious leaders, survivors, and their people on the whole are divided on the matter, so they’re now reaching out to archeologists and cultural anthropologists to determine the cost and process of exhumation to further inform their decision as the money they’re getting from the country for the endeavor total about $500,000 but may ultimately cost upwards of $10 million (which is the entire budget set aside by Canada to service similar investigations across the country).

JimR-OCDS · Sep 17, 2022

Tropical Wilds said:
If anybody wants the actual story, it’s here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...-residential-school-215-exhumations-1.6460796

In short, the discovery of the probable grave site grave led the chief of Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation to declare the traditional 1 year of mourning as is customary by their people. That one year ended in May and now they’re trying to work as a nation and a people to connect to/with the closest relatives of the deceased as well as working with their spiritual leaders to decide if the bodies should be exhumed and returned to the families for burial, or if the site should be left undisturbed as is. Religious leaders, survivors, and their people on the whole are divided on the matter, so they’re now reaching out to archeologists and cultural anthropologists to determine the cost and process of exhumation to further inform their decision as the money they’re getting from the country for the endeavor total about $500,000 but may ultimately cost upwards of $10 million (which is the entire budget set aside by Canada to service similar investigations across the country).

The actual story is what's in the OP, that no mass grave site was ever found and even the archeologists who made the original claim, backed off her claim.

As the article says, not one body was discovered.

Tropical Wilds · Sep 17, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
The actual story is what's in the OP, that no mass grave site was ever found and even the archeologists who made the original claim, backed off her claim.

As the article says, not one body was discovered.

She did not back off her claim. She said in May she wasn’t going to give anymore statements about it because she has done her job and has nothing else to say.

And the article explained why none of the bodies have been exhumed.

Seriously, just stop. No reputable agency is reporting that there is doubt of a mass grave there, just the fringe, whack a doodle conspiracy theorists. Ignoring the atrocities that happened at these schools is as bad as denying the Holocaust happened.

JimR-OCDS · Sep 17, 2022

Tropical Wilds said:
She did not back off her claim. She said in May she wasn’t going to give anymore statements about it because she has done her job and has nothing else to say.

And the article explained why none of the bodies have been exhumed.

Seriously, just stop. No reputable agency is reporting that there is doubt of a mass grave there, just the fringe, whack a doodle conspiracy theorists. Ignoring the atrocities that happened at these schools is as bad as denying the Holocaust happened.

From the OP article;

"From new research revealed at a July 15 press conference last year, the anthropologist scaled back the potential discovery from 215 to 200 “probable burials."

Also from another article;

"Professors in both Canada and the United States have begun questioning a recent study that alleged 215 Indigenous children are buried in unmarked graves near the Kamloops Indian Residential School in British Columbia, Canada.

“Frankly, most of this so-called ‘Native Children Genocide’ narrative looks like a political cudgel and a cash cow for social justice activists,” said San Jose State University anthropologist Elizabeth Weiss in an email to The College Fix."

And;

" Professor Jacques Rouillard pointed out in a recent article in The Dorchester Review, not one actual body has been exhumed from the site. Rouillard argued that without physical evidence, the story of the missing children remains a “thesis.”

Some professors work to debunk ‘Native Children Genocide’ narrative | The College Fix

JimR-OCDS · Sep 17, 2022

Kamloops mass grave debunked: 'Biggest fake news in Canada' (nypost.com)

‘Biggest fake news story in Canada’: Kamloops mass grave debunked by academics

JosephZ · Sep 17, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
Kamloops mass grave debunked: 'Biggest fake news in Canada' (nypost.com)

‘Biggest fake news story in Canada’: Kamloops mass grave debunked by academics

A few other headlines from the NY Post.

Mostly False: Ted Cruz ‘same senator who once supported a ban on sex toys’ – Mostly False
Newly Discovered Planet Could Destroy Earth Any Day Now – False
Hillary Clinton Regularly Had Her Maid Print Classified Documents – Unproven
PS 169 Pledge of Allegiance and Holiday Ban Controversy – Mostly False
‘New York Post’ op-ed rebuts starving children claim that was never made – Pants on Fire
Hours after signing an executive order on Jan. 20, 2021, U.S. President Joe Biden violated his own mask mandate. – False
Migrant children being sheltered in Long Beach, California, were each given a copy of Vice President Kamala Harris’ children’s book by the Biden administration. – False

No Indigenous Children's Bodies Found

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