Natural cruelty

eleos1954 said:

Because the whole point of everything, Jesus dieing, Gods will etc is for us NOT to sin.

His Word tells us what happened .... free choice beings made the decision to sin (and we still do) ... God didn't create sin, nor death .... sin is a consequence of choices made.

Sin is the works of the devil .... not God.

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8 ESV

Click to expand...

The whole point of everything, Jesus dying, God's will etc, is for us to become God's dwelling place, and the Bride of Christ. And the Devil began, and we continue, sin, just as God planned, as was necessary, for us to need redemption, and to be redeemed, unlike any other creature.

Mark Quayle said:

The whole point of everything, Jesus dying, God's will etc, is for us to become God's dwelling place, and the Bride of Christ. And the Devil began, and we continue, sin, just as God planned, as was necessary, for us to need redemption, and to be redeemed, unlike any other creature.

Click to expand...

that is making sin God's fault .... no ... it was a choice. He knew mankind would sin (foreknowledge) ... but did not cause us to sin.

It is God's will for us not to sin and has always been His will.

Hammster said:

He still chose to create when He didn’t need to. And He could have stopped sin from happening.

Click to expand...

He chose to create in His Image .... He has no sin in Him. God is relational

God did not create the world in order to become loving. Rather, he created because he is loving. If we’re ever going to reflect God’s heart to a hurting world, we must start with this basic truth: God is love.

Love requires a willing choice (else it's not true love) .... one can not force to love another ... God knows that .... we know that.

And He could have stopped sin from happening

Click to expand...

Yes, but then His creations (including the other beings) would have been nothing more than a bunch of preprogrammed robots. No love in that.

As you know .... sin began in heaven .... so freewill in heaven as well ... and God could have immediately "zapped" lucifer ... but then ... the angels would have been serving out of fear and not out of love.

It's all about love .... and GOD IS LOVE.

eleos1954 said:

If we’re ever going to reflect God’s heart to a hurting world, we must start with this basic truth: God is love.

Click to expand...

I've been listening to a number of David Pawson lectures lately, and he points out that the notion of a "loving God / God is Love" only figures in something like 1-in-a-thousand verses across the entire bible. Many books have ZERO allusion to a loving God. Most others have maybe one or two at best.

Instead of "God is love", he advocated for "God is a god of Righteousness", which is everywhere across both Testaments and underscores, in his opinion, the glory of the Cross and Jesus' sacrifice for us. As to whether a "hurting world" is best assuaged by a message of God's love, haven't we been preaching primarily that for 50+ years now? How's that working out for us?

eleos1954 said:

that is making sin God's fault .... no ... it was a choice. He knew mankind would sin (foreknowledge) ... but did not cause us to sin.

It is God's will for us not to sin and has always been His will.

Click to expand...

Of COURSE it was a choice! I said no different.

If he knew we would sin, yet created us anyway, he caused it to happen. That does not make it God's FAULT, but it is to his credit, as he causes all things to work together for good. God is not the author of sin, however. That is Satan. And Satan was caused to exist by God.

Keep in mind that what we call will takes at least two different routes in God's economy. (1) There is his will that he reveals to us, for our sakes, such as his commands. The fact that he commands a thing does not mean that his will (command) will be done. (2) There is also his hidden will, or plan. This is obviously not the same thing as his command.

It makes no sense to confuse the two. And lest you argue that there are no two wills, even we humans do the same thing with our children.

Brother-Mike said:

I've been listening to a number of David Pawson lectures lately, and he points out that the notion of a "loving God / God is Love" only figures in something like 1-in-a-thousand verses across the entire bible. Many books have ZERO allusion to a loving God. Most others have maybe one or two at best.

Instead of "God is love", he advocated for "God is a god of Righteousness", which is everywhere across both Testaments and underscores, in his opinion, the glory of the Cross and Jesus' sacrifice for us. As to whether a "hurting world" is best assuaged by a message of God's love, haven't we been preaching primarily that for 50+ years now? How's that working out for us?

Click to expand...

Love is God's highest priority ... for He SO LOVED He gave His son!

We are told we live in a fallen world and that we will have "woes". We are born into a "battlefield" ... there is a spiritual war going on .... we can understand war ... it is devastating until it is ended ... and ... He will end it (I hope soon)

It's not over yet.

This is the problem with the Calvinistic view .... it dismisses the profound love of God.



Here's just a few ...

Matthew 5:44: “Love your enemies.”

Matthew 22:39: After stating that the greatest commandment is to love God with your entire being, Jesus added, “The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

John 13:34-35: “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

John 15:12, 17: “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you…. This I command you, that you love one another.”

Romans 13:8, 10: “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law…. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1: “But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. Pursue love ….” Moffatt translates, “Make love your aim.”

1 Corinthians 16:14: “Let all that you do be done in love.”

Galatians 5:6: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”

Galatians 5:13b-14: “Through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Galatians 5:22: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love ….”

Ephesians 5:1-2: “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.”

Philippians 1:9: “And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment ….”

1 Thessalonians 3:12: “may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you.”

When it comes down to it, God uses two standards that are actually one: our response to Jesus’ offer of salvation, and His Law.

Jesus was the embodiment of the Law of God. He lived out the goodness of the Law in perfect love.

We live in a lawless age that disdains boundaries and restrictions. Thus, the notion of loving God's law seems quite strange to the unbeliever. Yet it should never seem strange to us.

If God by His Spirit has poured His love into our hearts (Romans 5), then we will love whatever reflects His character. We will love His law because it shows us who He is, and He is altogether lovely.

Hammster said:

If that’s true, then He needed Satan to tempt Eve.

Click to expand...

God don't tempt anyone .... Adam & Eve had a choice ... just like we have a choice.

God does not ever tempt us to sin (James 1:13). Eve was tempted and deceived by Satan but Adam went into it with his eyes wide open.

Love .... it can not be forced .... it has to be a choice .... satan and the 1/3 made a choice .... Adam & Eve made a choice .... we make choices.

we are being tempted to turn our backs on God because we live in a fallen world where the devil seeks to devour us (1 Peter 5:8)

The Bible declares that the devil is the source of all temptation and is called the "tempter." (Matthew 4:3). But he is able to succeed because we let him -- and we let him succeed because of our own weakness and sinfulness. We want what seems pleasurable without counting the cost.

This is the reason we need Christ. Only He can forgive us when we sin, and only He can give us the strength, by the power of His Spirit, to resist temptation. In His own encounter with the devil at the beginning of His ministry, Jesus pointed the way to victory; using the truth of God's Word to counteract Satan's lies.

Three times Satan attacked Him with almost overwhelming temptations. And three times Jesus replied with Scripture. This is why it is vitally important to stay in God's Word daily and let the richness of His truth fill our hearts and minds.

The Word of God is the loving weapon against the attacks of Satan. This is what Scripture means when the Word of God is called the Sword of truth. "Blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice" (Luke 11:28, NLT).

Xeno.of.athens said:

In nature one animal eats another, sometimes with cruel foreplay.

Some viruses and some bacteria kill their hosts in gruesome ways with great suffering for the host.

Volcano, earthquake, storm, flood, and drought are mindless processes that wreak havoc upon whole populations of men, animals, and plants.

Yet some teach that all this is part of God's Eternal Decree, an unflinching unalterable path and plan for creation. Is this so?

Click to expand...

No, since Adam humans are no longer inside Gold's dwellng realm. Anywhere outside God's realm is literally a hell. Earth is a better place than a hell simply God's sheep are still here while God still has an unfinished job here to redeem His sheep.

That's why Satan is referred to as the god of this world. Christians on the other hand are told that they don't belong here. This is not our world, while we shall not love this world. Though we can still appreciate God's creation from what are left now in this place, from which we can still tell how great God is with His creation.

Mark Quayle said:

Of COURSE it was a choice! I said no different.

If he knew we would sin, yet created us anyway, he caused it to happen. That does not make it God's FAULT, but it is to his credit, as he causes all things to work together for good. God is not the author of sin, however. That is Satan. And Satan was caused to exist by God.

Keep in mind that what we call will takes at least two different routes in God's economy. (1) There is his will that he reveals to us, for our sakes, such as his commands. The fact that he commands a thing does not mean that his will (command) will be done. (2) There is also his hidden will, or plan. This is obviously not the same thing as his command.

It makes no sense to confuse the two. And lest you argue that there are no two wills, even we humans do the same thing with our children.

Click to expand...

no God didn't cause sin to happen ... He created all His intelligent beings as free agents and giving them choice ... true love can not exist without choice.

All could have chosen differently ... they did not ... and so we are in this mess.

God don't make anyone's choices for them or us ... He does put choice in front of us.

God did not make the devil, but that Lucifer turned himself into the devil by focusing on himself and seeking power (he made a choice)

Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished (Genesis 1:31–2:1; NKJV).

Everything that God made, whether on earth, sky, seas, or heaven, was “very good.” Did this include the heaven of heavens and Satan and the angels? Absolutely! Satan is spoken to in Ezekiel 28:15; NKJV:

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
This passage says that Satan was blameless; hence he was very good originally. It would make sense then that the heaven of heavens was also a recipient of this blessed saying since Satan was. In fact, this is what we would expect from an all-good God: a very good creation. Deuteronomy 32:4 says every work of God is perfect. So the heaven of heavens, Satan, and the angels were originally very good.

Hammster said:

This isn’t true. His highest priority is His glory. This is where synergists fail. They make God’s love for us a priority, which then makes mankind a higher priority than we are.

Click to expand...

The glory of God is the manifestation and revelation of the His love in the radiance of His power and splendor.

“When we are compelled by God’s love in everything, God is greatly glorified.

Psalm 115:1
Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory, for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!

He bestows His love on us and when that love is manifested in us He is glorified.

Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)

“Jesus loves us by asking the Father to let us see his glory.”
confident in His Father's love, He poured Himself out for others.

If we want to glorify God as Christ did, we must genuinely love and value all people as precious in the sight of God. We must be mindful to see the various needs of others in our spheres of influence and act with kindness to serve and bless them (James 2:14-16)

eleos1954 said:

Love is God's highest priority ... for He SO LOVED He gave His son!

We are told we live in a fallen world and that we will have "woes". We are born into a "battlefield" ... there is a spiritual war going on .... we can understand war ... it is devastating until it is ended ... and ... He will end it (I hope soon)

It's not over yet.

This is the problem with the Calvinistic view .... it dismisses the profound love of God.

Click to expand...

How so?

Calvinism PROVES the love of God. It demands pure grace in redemption, all of it the work of God, none the work of man.

eleos1954 said:

no God didn't cause sin to happen ... He created all His intelligent beings as free agents and giving them choice ... true love can not exist without choice.

All could have chosen differently ... they did not ... and so we are in this mess.

Click to expand...

Calvinism/ Reformed does not deny choice. It constantly amazes me how people think it does deny choice. It demands that we choose, and that we are responsible for our choices, and that our choices have real, even eternal, consequences.

eleos1954 said:

God don't make anyone's choices for them or us ... He does put choice in front of us.

Click to expand...

You continue with you misrepresentation of Reformed/ Calvinistic theology here. Nobody says he makes our choices for us. God does indeed choose, and causes our choices, but we still nevertheless choose, and that, according to our own inclinations, not necessarily according to God's inclinations.

eleos1954 said:

Love is God's highest priority ... for He SO LOVED He gave His son!

We are told we live in a fallen world and that we will have "woes". We are born into a "battlefield" ... there is a spiritual war going on .... we can understand war ... it is devastating until it is ended ... and ... He will end it (I hope soon)

It's not over yet.

This is the problem with the Calvinistic view .... it dismisses the profound love of God.



Here's just a few ...

Matthew 5:44: “Love your enemies.”

Matthew 22:39: After stating that the greatest commandment is to love God with your entire being, Jesus added, “The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

John 13:34-35: “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

John 15:12, 17: “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you…. This I command you, that you love one another.”

Romans 13:8, 10: “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law…. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1: “But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. Pursue love ….” Moffatt translates, “Make love your aim.”

1 Corinthians 16:14: “Let all that you do be done in love.”

Galatians 5:6: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”

Galatians 5:13b-14: “Through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Galatians 5:22: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love ….”

Ephesians 5:1-2: “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.”

Philippians 1:9: “And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment ….”

1 Thessalonians 3:12: “may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you.”

When it comes down to it, God uses two standards that are actually one: our response to Jesus’ offer of salvation, and His Law.

Jesus was the embodiment of the Law of God. He lived out the goodness of the Law in perfect love.

We live in a lawless age that disdains boundaries and restrictions. Thus, the notion of loving God's law seems quite strange to the unbeliever. Yet it should never seem strange to us.

If God by His Spirit has poured His love into our hearts (Romans 5), then we will love whatever reflects His character. We will love His law because it shows us who He is, and He is altogether lovely.

Click to expand...

With all due respect brother, what's Calvinism have to do with the price of tea in Geneva?

I understand your sentiment and appreciate the time it took you to paste these expressions of God's love which I would wager you'd have a hard time finding any Reformed/Calvinist brother who doesn't affirm and cherish those very same words of God.

Calvin's Institutes have 528 direct references to love - our love for God, his love for us, the love within the Church.

But because the Lord wills not to lose what is his in us, out of his own kindness he still finds something to love. However much we may be sinners by our own fault, we nevertheless remain his creatures. However much we have brought death upon ourselves, yet he has created us unto life. Thus he is moved by pure and freely given love of us to receive us into grace.

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion & 2, ed. John T. McNeill, The Library of Christian Classics, (Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 2011), 1:505–506.

Click to expand...

Hardly a dismissal. My posting above was simply raising a discussion point of which aspect of God (in this case "Righteousness" versus "Love") is most effective with new believers, and not in just catching their ear but also in laying the necessary foundation for a solid, reliable faith that can weather the inevitable questions of theodicy, suffering, persecution, etc.

But don't get me wrong - if I pass by a Christian passing out "God is Love" pamphlets it's not like I tsk-tsk the intention. In my opinion this would qualify as a "good problem to have"

Mark Quayle said:

Calvinism/ Reformed does not deny choice. It constantly amazes me how people think it does deny choice. It demands that we choose, and that we are responsible for our choices, and that our choices have real, even eternal, consequences.

You continue with you misrepresentation of Reformed/ Calvinistic theology here. Nobody says he makes our choices for us. God does indeed choose, and causes our choices, but we still nevertheless choose, and that, according to our own inclinations, not necessarily according to God's inclinations.

Click to expand...

and causes our choices

God gives us the free choice and free will to live our lives the way we desire. That gift of freedom is the greatest gift that he can give. God wants us to choose, because we love him and want to obey him, to make our decisions within the overall blueprint of his will ... which is Love ... putting others before self.

well ... there is the idea of predestination .... and that being God predetermined who would or would not be saved .... and ... that is not the case ..... foreknowing something and causing something to happen are two different things ....

If it's raining outside I foreknow that if I go outside I'll get wet ... but I can choose not to.

and causes our choices

Click to expand...

He causes us to make a choice (choose to sin or not) ... that is freedom .... He doesn't make the choice for us.

Calvin defines predestination in the following manner:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

Galatians 5:13-14

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 22:36-40

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

It isn't that God predestined (causes) some to love and some not to love.

Love is a choice.

Hammster said:

I never said that God tempted. I said that if your view is true, God needed Satan to tempt Eve.

Click to expand...

God is holy, eternal, almighty, and totally self-sufficient. He does not need any created being, but we do need Him.