Why people reject the reality of Hell

Der Alte · Aug 29, 2022

JulieB67 said:
Death is the eternal punishment. There's no coming back from that. That's why it's called the second "death".
II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"
Everyone glosses over Christ's own words that the LOF is the second death. This points to his teaching in Matthew 10:28. He himself is providing a second witness to his own teaching. If one spins Matthew 10:28, he completely makes it clear that the LOF is the second death.
It's pretty much throughout the entire word that the wicked will perish/die but the righteous will obtain eternal life.
Again, if people want to see different things into death, destruction, perish -that they're only in a "ruined" state etc that's on them. But in the context of the entire word and Christ's teachings at the end, it's pretty clear the wicked are destroyed, turned to stubble and ashes in the LOF. That's why it can be said that death is destroyed. It's all gone.

Wrong! "Death" is the point in time end of life. Jesus is quoted as using the word death 18 times. When Jesus meant death He said "death" not "punishment."
"No more death" does not mean all the dead come back to life. "No more death" means no more point in time end of life.
While the lake of fire is called the second death twice. Not one verse says anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire then they/it dies.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet, who was a person, were thrown into the lake of fire 1000 years earlier then the devil was thrown in and they did not die but were tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Vs, 4 says "no more death." vs. 5 Jesus said "I make all things new." But 3 vss, later 8 groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still called the "second death."

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If there is "no more death" after vs. 4 then those eight groups of people will not die.

Der Alte · Aug 29, 2022

Jipsah said:
Dunno, was He lying in this one? "Take, eat; this is my body." (You like that "you think Jesus was lying?' schtick a lot, I just thought I'd try some on you.)

My answer is if the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. The converse is also true if the plain sense does not make good sense then it is good sense to seek another sense. Jesus most certainly was not advocating cannibalism. Ergo it was figurative.
잡았어

wendykvw · Aug 29, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
If no one dies anymore, there is still death. Those who have died and returned to dust can be counted as dead, even if forgotten. Those who die in fires, same story. No more death is fine as far as it goes, but if anyone is still dead and/or in "hell" then Death is still a thing. For death to be a thing, you must have the dead. As I've said before, if God asks of Death and the Grave where their sting and victory are, they can point to non-empty graves. But - God does not make such challenge in vain, for it is just a rhetorical way of stating that Death and the Grave have NOTHING. This is where Annihilation founders.

Death is defeated. I like that.. so did Paul. 1 Cor 15:55

Jipsah · Aug 29, 2022

Der Alte said:
My answer is if the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. The converse is also true if the plain sense does not make good sense then it is good sense to seek another sense. Jesus most certainly was not advocating cannibalism. Ergo it was figurative

In other words, you don't think He meant it.

We follow different religions.

FineLinen · Aug 29, 2022

JulieB67 said:
The problem with ECT and UR is that neither of you believe Christ's own words that the LOF is the second "death" You can continue to spin your doctrines but it still won't change the meaning of the word "death" and the fact that the wages of sin is just that -death.

The Lake of Fire has two underlining elements: theion and the verb thioo. Our God is fire. His Lake of divinity is our God making all new in unprecedented fashion.

Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta.

JulieB67 · Aug 30, 2022

FineLinen said:
The Lake of Fire has two underlining elements: theion and the verb thioo. Our God is fire. His Lake of divinity is our God making all new in unprecedented fashion.

You and others can continue to spin "the second death" and not believe Christ's own words that it is in fact the second death but it's still not going to change the fact that the LOF was prepared for Satan and his angels. Not as some sort of refinery that brings out a new person. It's never described as such. If it was that Christ would not be calling it the second death which points to his teaching in Matthew 10:28. Unfortunately many others will follow them to the second death.

God refines people in their lifetimes not in the LOF.

Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Many UR believers even post verse 9 many times to promote their doctrine but somehow manage to leave out verse 8 and the context.

When we take the bible as a whole, again the wages of sin is death. Not eternal life and not eternal life in hell. It is eternal destruction, destroyed, perished, stubble, turned to ashes from within and so on. That's what a real fire does. It's totally different from God's Holy Spirit that refines people during their lifetime. The LOF was prepared for Satan and his angels and it is described as the second death. Adding anything else to that is adding to the bible.

P1LGR1M · Aug 30, 2022

JulieB67 said:
My point is their soul is still alive. No one has been thrown into the LOF at this time. One is either on one side of the gulf or the other. Common sense alone tells us that no one is thrown in only to be pulled back out for the final judgement only to be thrown back in. That's utter nonsense. So anyone that has died in the flesh has not yet suffered the second death.

They are resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire. The Beast and the False Prophet go into the Lake of Fire alive.

They are alive but do not have Eternal Life, because they have never received the Life of Christ by being immersed into God, nor has God taken up residence in them.

The first death is our separation from God in this life. The Second death is separation from God eternally in the Lake of Fire.

In Hades, as in the Rich Man's case, only the spirit of the Rich Man is there. He is still a "soul" because he is still the person that physically died.

but when this man is cast into the Lake of Fire, he will be resurrected as taught in Revelation 20. Both body and soul (person) will be in torment forever.

JulieB67 said:
Exactly, that's my point. It is the second "death" The first is the death of the flesh.

The flesh is irrelevant. You were dead before you were saved, yet you were alive physically.

All that are born into this world are dead, because they do not have the Life of God.

Only those who are born again have life.

The "first death" is not physical death.

I believe I did a few posts for you trying to explain that. Sounds like you are still trying to work this out with "common sense."

JulieB67 said:
Spiritually dead or alive just means at that point in time. Someone can be spiritually dead now meaning if they haven't repented and accepted Christ they will suffer the second death. but when they come to know Christ, they have life spiritually speaking. And vice versa. There is such a thing as apostasy, etc. But regardless of that fact, this has nothing to do with the second death in the LOF. That is final.

"Spiritual death" is a myth created by other men using "common sense." It arrives out of a hyper-literal interpretation that says "If God said '...the day ye eat of it ye shall surely die' then they must have died that very day they ate of the fruit. And since they didn't die they must have 'died spiritually'."

Spirits don't die. We have not even the first glimpse of this concept in Scripture at all.

Adam didn't have to die that day for God's Word to be true. He said if they ate it they would surely die. It is no different than me saying "The day you understand the biblical concept of death you will surely grow in your understanding."

We see that physical death is in view as Adam's punishment, because he is thrust out of the Garden lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live forever:

Genesis 3:22-23
King James Version

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Romans 5:12-14
King James Version

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam doesn't create the spirit of men when God creates men through procreation, God does.

Use common sense about the concept of God creating dead spirits. Spirit is the life essence of man.

How does Adam "pass on" dead spirits?

"Death" in a spiritual sense is the absence of the Spirit that is the only One that is Eternal. We have spirits, but we do not have the Spirit of God. Not even Adam had eternal union with God. His loss of communion was not that He was in Christ, sinned, then was no longer in Christ. His loss of communion was exactly what God's Word states: he was thrust out of the Garden (and no longer walked directly with God Himself) and cut off from the Tree of Life, the only means of "everlasting life" he had.

JulieB67 said:
Do we really have to have God spell it out for us?

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." The Lake of Fire is part of that equation. Again, do you really need it spelled out that everything will be passed away and everything new?

The wicked will be turned to stubble and ashes period. That's what a fire does.

As I said, if people want to believe that we will have a new heaven and earth which the old LOF still burning with people inside it for an eternity that's between them and God.

God doesn't even want people to die, he has no pleasure in "that' yet many believe he would do this. Oh well, I guess we'll find out....

Actually, God does in fact "spell it out for us, lol.

And nowhere do we see the Lake of Fire passing away.

If you read the text this creation passes away before men are cast into The Lake of Fire:

Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So you are in error to think that the Lake of Fire is "part of that equation.

God spelled it out for us.

The earth and the heavens (the universe) have fled. This is its passing away.

The "dead" have been resurrected yet have no life.

They stand before God to be judged.

They are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The Lake of Fire is a spiritual place, not a physical place we might get into a rocket ship and one day find. The dead, those without the life of Christ, are resurrected to fulfill Christ's teaching that God will destroy both soul (person) and body (the physical body) in Hell, the Lake of Fire.

I don't like it any more than anybody else, but I cannot change what God has spelled out for us so clearly. Human reasoning can make a lot of false doctrines palatable, but it doesn't make them true.

It is because men are to fear God casting them into Hell that I teach God will cast men into Hell if they do not obey the Gospel. And the descriptions of that judgment are not given in terms of annihilation nor are they taught to have anything but an ongoing duration.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Aug 30, 2022

FineLinen said:
The Lake of Fire has two underlining elements: theion and the verb thioo. Our God is fire. His Lake of divinity is our God making all new in unprecedented fashion.

Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta.

It is called the Lake of Fire, not the Lake of God.

Fire is representative of judgment, and this is contrasted with salvation—both everlasting:

Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

You would need to provide Scripture to correlate with whatever point it is you are trying to make.

God bless.

FineLinen · Aug 30, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
It is called the Lake of Fire, not the Lake of God.

Instead of posting with walls of Scripture, take a season and examine what the koine theion and theioo means and report back your results.

FineLinen · Aug 30, 2022

JulieB67 said:
You and others can continue to spin "the second death" and not believe Christ's own words that it is in fact the second death but it's still not going to change the fact that the LOF was prepared for Satan and his angels. Not as some sort of refinery that brings out a new person. It's never described as such. If it was that Christ would not be calling it the second death which points to his teaching in Matthew 10:28. Unfortunately many others will follow them to the second death.

God refines people in their lifetimes not in the LOF.

Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Many UR believers even post verse 9 many times to promote their doctrine but somehow manage to leave out verse 8 and the context.

When we take the bible as a whole, again the wages of sin is death. Not eternal life and not eternal life in hell. It is eternal destruction, destroyed, perished, stubble, turned to ashes from within and so on. That's what a real fire does. It's totally different from God's Holy Spirit that refines people during their lifetime. The LOF was prepared for Satan and his angels and it is described as the second death. Adding anything else to that is adding to the bible.

FineLinen · Aug 30, 2022

JulieB67 said:
You and others can continue to spin "the second death" and not believe Christ's own words that it is in fact the second death but it's still not going to change the fact that the LOF was prepared for Satan and his angels. Not as some sort of refinery that brings out a new person. It's never described as such. If it was that Christ would not be calling it the second death which points to his teaching in Matthew 10:28. Unfortunately many others will follow them to the second death.

God refines people in their lifetimes not in the LOF.

Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Many UR believers even post verse 9 many times to promote their doctrine but somehow manage to leave out verse 8 and the context.

When we take the bible as a whole, again the wages of sin is death. Not eternal life and not eternal life in hell. It is eternal destruction, destroyed, perished, stubble, turned to ashes from within and so on. That's what a real fire does. It's totally different from God's Holy Spirit that refines people during their lifetime. The LOF was prepared for Satan and his angels and it is described as the second death. Adding anything else to that is adding to the bible.

There is absolutely no need to spin anything! The Lake of Fire is our God, radiating with theion & theioo.

From Him: everything, in Him everything, into Him everything.

FineLinen · Aug 30, 2022

Take 8 =

Everlasting punishment

Search = "everlasting punishment"

Results = 1 verse found (Matt. 25:46)

The five (5) qualifications for aionios kolasis/ everlasting punishment according to the Master of reconciliation =

1.________________?

2.________________?

3.________________?

4.________________?

5.________________?

Note the context.

1. Why pure virgins? (5 wise & 5 unwise), but virgins!

2. Why two clean animals rather than 1 clean and 1 unclean?

JulieB67 · Aug 30, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
but when this man is cast into the Lake of Fire, he will be resurrected as taught in Revelation 20. Both body and soul (person) will be in torment forever.

The end of Revelation 20 has to do with the final judgement after the 1000 years. Those who are not in the book of life at that point suffer the second death. You can continue to put your own definiton into the word death but it's still not going to change the meaning. I will give you that is is separation in the sense that the soul is destroyed. Our Father and Christ's teaching, not mine.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul the sinneth, it shall die. the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

P1LGR1M said:
The first death is our separation from God in this life. The Second death is separation from God eternally in the Lake of Fire.

Life has no part in the LOF no matter how much you put it in there and hide it under the guise of separation from God but still in torment for an eternity.

P1LGR1M said:
In Hades, as in the Rich Man's case, only the spirit of the Rich Man is there. He is still a "soul" because he is still the person that physically died.

Of course he's still there. We haven't gotten to the LOF and final judgement at that point. The other side of the gulf is not the same thing as the LOF at final judgement.

P1LGR1M said:
but when this man is cast into the Lake of Fire, he will be resurrected

There's no resurrection in the LOF. Totally unbiblical and once again goes against our Father's and Christ's teaching.

P1LGR1M said:
The Lake of Fire is a spiritual place

Your own words. It's the second death -Christ's words.

If one takes the Bible as a whole it's really easy to see the nature of God. Going back to Ezekiel 18,

Ezekiel 18:21 "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

Ezekiel 18:22 "All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live."

Ezekiel 18:23 "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

I'm sure you've read these verses but have you ever really taken them to heart?? God doesn't even want the wicked to perish. Yet you think he would torment someone for an eternity? This verse as well as others like it show he that does not even want anyone to die, he wants all to come to repentance.

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

I was taught as you believe once but it doesn't hold up biblically at all if we take the bible as a whole and especially verses like in Ezekiel and Christ's teachings in Matthew 10:28 and Revelation 20. That completely nails down what happens to the soul. It dies/is destroyed fully if we go by the first defintion in the Greek.

Der Alte · Aug 30, 2022

@JulieB67
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.2

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence. There is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

My name for these two sentient beings is, “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

The last chapter of the Bible, Rev. 22:11., 10 more vss. No salvation, no destruction, no death, only “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.”

Der Alte · Aug 30, 2022

JulieB67 said:
You and others can continue to spin "the second death" and not believe Christ's own words that it is in fact the second death but it's still not going to change the fact that the LOF was prepared for Satan and his angels. Not as some sort of refinery that brings out a new person. It's never described as such. If it was that Christ would not be calling it the second death which points to his teaching in Matthew 10:28. Unfortunately many others will follow them to the second death.
God refines people in their lifetimes not in the LOF.
Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."
Many UR believers even post verse 9 many times to promote their doctrine but somehow manage to leave out verse 8 and the context.
When we take the bible as a whole, again the wages of sin is death. Not eternal life and not eternal life in hell. It is eternal destruction, destroyed, perished, stubble, turned to ashes from within and so on. That's what a real fire does. It's totally different from God's Holy Spirit that refines people during their lifetime. The LOF was prepared for Satan and his angels and it is described as the second death. Adding anything else to that is adding to the bible.

You appear to be confusing God's dealing with disobedient Israel in this life and God dealing with all mankind at the final judgement in Rev..

Zech 13:8 "in all the land."
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

JulieB67 · Aug 31, 2022

Der Alte said:
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Yes, context matters. Which means we can take the entire bible and most definitely Christ's teachings in Mattew 10:28 which fit with his teachings that the second death is just that -death.

We certainly know aions can have ends we've seen that numerous times throughout the bible. But death always means death. As I've said, we can't change the meaning. The opposite of death is life. We either achieve life or death, that's it. And we've been told all thoughout what the final state will be of the wicked.

Satan himself is promised that he will be turned to ashes from within. We've been told the wicked will be stubble with neither root or branch. That's what a fire does.

Psalms 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

.Ezekiel 28:18
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Isaiah 5:23 "Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel"

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then
neither root nor branch."

Matthew 3:12 "Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

We've seen throughout the entire bible just what happens in this fire. That's what a fire does, it burns up whatever is thrown in. There will be neither root or branch left.

Der Alte said:
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”

Yes, no more death. There were no chapers when this was written. This is just reiterating who will be thrown in at the final judgement unless you think there is more than one final judgement.

Just as the verse before tells us he who shall overcome shall inherit all things.

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." We know this happens at the final judgement.

Neither of these things has happened yet. We have to have context. We are being told in these two verses that he who overcomes shall inherit all things...but the rest shall have their part in the LOF which is the second death.

It's not telling us this is still going on after the final judgement which it seems you are implying.

Der Alte said:
You appear to be confusing God's dealing with disobedient Israel in this life and God dealing with all mankind at the final judgement in Rev..

I posted those verses to show certain UR believers that God refines certain people in their lifetimes, not LOF.

P1LGR1M · Aug 31, 2022

FineLinen said:
Instead of posting with walls of Scripture, take a season and examine what the koine theion and theioo means and report back your results.

I have been giving short posts. Which of those have you responded to with a direct response to the points made?

You keep posting this:

FineLinen said:
Take 8 =

Everlasting punishment

Search = "everlasting punishment"

Results = 1 verse found (Matt. 25:46)

The five (5) qualifications for aionios kolasis/ everlasting punishment according to the Master of reconciliation =

1.________________?

2.________________?

3.________________?

4.________________?

5.________________?

Note the context.

1. Why pure virgins? (5 wise & 5 unwise), but virgins!

2. Why two clean animals rather than 1 clean and 1 unclean?

And you will not answer a simple question:

What animals do we find, other than Sheep and Goats—in Matthew 25?

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Aug 31, 2022

JulieB67 said:
P1LGR1M said:

but when this man is cast into the Lake of Fire, he will be resurrected as taught in Revelation 20. Both body and soul (person) will be in torment forever.

Click to expand...

The end of Revelation 20 has to do with the final judgement after the 1000 years. Those who are not in the book of life at that point suffer the second death. You can continue to put your own definiton into the word death but it's still not going to change the meaning.

It's not my definition, it is the Lord's definition:

John 6:53
King James Version

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Now, what does it mean to "eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood?"

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Aug 31, 2022

JulieB67 said:
I will give you that is is separation in the sense that the soul is destroyed. Our Father and Christ's teaching, not mine.

The soul is the person, and can refer to a man or woman whether they have died physically or not.

When Adam was created he received spirit and a body, and became a living soul.

He didn't receive a soul.

Here are some others that became living souls as well in Creation as Adam did:

Gen 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living H2416 creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living H2416 creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast H2416 of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, H5315 that was the name thereof.

The teaching of the "soul" as an immaterial aspect of man's make-up is not supported by the Bible, hence we see people (as we see in this post) try to teach eternal contexts while misapplying biblical terms they do not understand. Ezekiel 18 is one of the go-to passages for people who teach a variety of false doctrines.

Man became a soul, he didn't receive one. He was created a "living creature," ḥay nep̄eš, having the "breath of life," or, spirit, and a body.

This will be more relvant when we get to Ezekiel 18 in this post, but, let's consider (for at least the second time, but probably more like third or fourth time in the two threads going on right now) the "destruction" of the "soul" here:

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It doesn't say "...fear not them which can kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear Him that is able to kill both body and soul in Hell."

It says fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

Luke states the reason to fear is being cast into Hell itself:

Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

The word "destroy" does not mean one ceases to exist.

Israel was in a "state of destruction" when Christ came to minister to them:

Matthew 10:5-6
King James Version

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Had Israel ceased to exist? No, they were in a state of destruction as we all are when we come into this world.

We are born lost.

And Eternal Destruction as seen in Matthew 10:28 holds a very good reason why men should fear God: because it is an everlasting state of destruction, a state of being separated from God for the rest of eternity.

He came to save that which was lost:

Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy G622 men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Luk 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. G622

This destruction is contrasted with Eternal Life:

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should G622 not perish 622 but have everlasting life.

Sodom was destroyed yet still exists, awaiting the judgment to come. They will fare better than those who reject God's will in this Age according to Christ:

Matthew 10:15
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Why?

Because of the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel.

And this is just another reason why Universal Salvation conflicts with Scripture: you cannot have differing degrees of punishment if the punishment doesn't happen. The purgatorial "cleansing" of "Everlasting Destruction" and "Everlasting Torment" and "Everlasting Punishment" makes no sense at all. If all men are redeemed regardless of obedience to God or not, then there is nothing everlasting about it, which means that either Universal Salvationists are in error or Christ and the Apostles and the Holy Spirit that inspired the Writing of Scripture are.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Aug 31, 2022

And by the way, these "walls of texts" are not necessarrily for the benefit of the Original Antagonist, but for those who have a desire to understand the basis of both sides in full.

God bless.

Why people reject the reality of Hell

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Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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