Micah 6:8

GDL · Aug 25, 2022

fhansen said:
And then there are some who might say that an obligation to obey even these commandments would interfere with a faith alone doctrine.

As some have argued in response to "a faith alone" doctrine, faith is never alone.

If 1 John 3:23 in part is a command to unbelievers to believe in Christ (and I think it is), then our belief is also obedience to God's command to believe, in the same way that our love for God and one another is obedience to His commands to love. From initial faith onward we are always to be in obedience to His commands. IOW I think He's covered everything meaningful for us with His commands, so we do nothing meaningful apart from obeying Him.

Neither faith nor obedience are works that are in opposition to the Salvation by grace through faith doctrine. The works are works.

Petros2015 said:
I feel like we might be asking the wrong question here.
One is not saved by obedience
One is saved, and then one knows how to obey

But we are told that we obey the Gospel (Romans 10:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17), and we are told that Salvation is for all who obey Jesus Christ (Hebrews 5:9), and see my answer to fhansen above.

fhansen said:
Yes, we're justified by faith, and that state of justice also includes justice/righteousness given. But from there can that state be compromised and forfeited- by living unjustly? Or do we no longer even have a choice in that matter? What happens if we're disobeying after we've been empowered to be obedient, no longer a slave to sin but a slave to righteousness as Romans puts it? Is the following a guarantee, or a guarantee as long as we continue to want it, that we truly remain in Him?

At this point I see that "that state" can be compromised and forfeited, and that this goes along with my above answers. To cease obeying God is to cease believing He is God and I do not see, as some do, all the warning passages about this to just be guides for believers that none of them will ever cease to heed.

Halbhh said:
Yes, but wonderfully, Christ has made all of these things of the law (summarized in the two Greatest Commandments) more doable for us, because we can dwell on the Vine and thus do from Him, because of Him in us, what we could not do (well, in a lasting way) on our own: Only as we remain in Him:

"Only as we remain in Him" as commanded, so we're right back to faith & obedience, or faith-obedience, or faithfulness.

God will have faithful Children in Christ who have learned obedience and been perfected after and in union with their first-born brother and Lord (Hebrews 5:8-9; Romans 8:16-18, Romans 8:29).

fhansen · Aug 25, 2022

GDL said:
As some have argued in response to "a faith alone" doctrine, faith is never alone.

If 1 John 3:23 in part is a command to unbelievers to believe in Christ (and I think it is), then our belief is also obedience to God's command to believe, in the same way that our love for God and one another is obedience to His commands to love. From initial faith onward we are always to be in obedience to His commands. IOW I think He's covered everything meaningful for us with His commands, so we do nothing meaningful apart from obeying Him.

Neither faith nor obedience are works that are in opposition to the Salvation by grace through faith doctrine. The works are works.

But we are told that we obey the Gospel (Romans 10:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17), and we are told that Salvation is for all who obey Jesus Christ (Hebrews 5:9), and see my answer to fhansen above.

At this point I see that "that state" can be compromised and forfeited, and that this goes along with my above answers. To cease obeying God is to cease believing He is God and I do not see, as some do, all the warning passages about this to just be guides for believers that none of them will ever cease to heed.

"Only as we remain in Him" as commanded, so we're right back to faith & obedience, or faith-obedience, or faithfulness.

God will have faithful Children in Christ who have learned obedience and been perfected after and in union with their first-born brother and Lord (Hebrews 5:8-9; Romans 8:16-18, Romans 8:29).

Thank you. For myself I guess I see it as having to with more than the sheer act of faith. Faith is the beginning of a relationship as it's the doorway to God. We're saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9) unto a new life, the life of grace that affords a new righteousness that wasn't availble before, and which is simply the offspring of fellowship with God. To the extent that we remain in Him, following and doing His will, walking in the light He gives us, our justice or rightoeousness remains intact and even grows.

GDL · Aug 25, 2022

fhansen said:
Thank you. For myself I guess I see it as having to with more than the sheer act of faith. Faith is the beginning of a relationship as it's the doorway to God. We're saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9)

Always a pleasure fhansen.

I agree with you but am just trying to stress that that "act of faith" is also an act of obedience even if we don't know it at the time. As you know, in the end it's all about [biblical] love, and love is also obedience to God. Since faith in Christ is obedience to God's command to believe, then that realized or unrealized obedience is also an act of love towards God. So, in effect we begin in love for God, and we progressively grow in that love. I'll leave it to you to add your favored quotes as to the primacy of love.

fhansen · Aug 25, 2022

GDL said:
Always a pleasure fhansen.

I agree with you but am just trying to stress that that "act of faith" is also an act of obedience even if we don't know it at the time. As you know, in the end it's all about [biblical] love, and love is also obedience to God. Since faith in Christ is obedience to God's command to believe, then that realized or unrealized obedience is also an act of love towards God. So, in effect we begin in love for God, and we progressively grow in that love. I'll leave it to you to add your favored quotes as to the primacy of love.

I agree that faith is an act of obedience. In fact, it's the reversal of Adam's act of disobedience, which was also an act of faithlesssness, disbelief. Faith makes God our God again, so it's a priceless gift, and a choice, that basically restores man to the justice that was lost in Eden. We've tasted-we've known-evil here and can be all the more ready now to answer when the Good comes knocking at our door. So faith, itself, is the first most basic right thing a human can do. And more should follow from that.

GDL · Aug 25, 2022

fhansen said:
I agree that faith is an act of obedience. In fact, it's the reversal of Adam's act of disbedience, which was also an act of faithlesssness. Faith makes God our God again, so it's priceless gift, and choice, that basically restores man to the justice that was lost in Eden. We've tasted-we've known-evil here and can be all the more ready now to answer when the Good comes knocking at our door. So faith, itself, is the first most basic right thing a human can do. And more should follow from that.

I'm going to add something about this faith-obedience concept. Jesus told us what God is seeking from us and he did so with great emphasis (through repetition):

NKJ John4:21-24 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

This emphasis is astounding and comes from Christ Himself. I don't recall another part of our Text where this is done. There are a few Greek words typically translated "worship." One has to do with service to God but this one literally means to bow in obeisance. It's a word of reverent submission and denotes obedience. When our Father put our Lord on this earth, this was who & what He told us our Father is now seeking. How can it get any clearer?

We can emphasize faith all we want, and we're correct in doing so, but until we see this faith-obedience connection, we really do not understand biblical faith IMO. Paul said this was His ministry, to bring the nations to faith-obedience (Romans 1:5 bookended with Romans 16:26). It was Jesus' command in what we call the Great Commission - go make disciples teaching all I've commanded - which He commanded right after He said all authority in Heaven and earth was given to Him - which He said right after some hesitated to bow in obeisance (same word as John 4) to Him (Matthew 28:17-20).

I was prompted to redeem some time rereading the NC several years back and identify in it everywhere I noticed a concept of obedience to God showing up. It took a few weeks as I recall. My highlights and notes were extensive. I made a graphic of much of the terminology directly related to and conditioned on obedience to God. Important terminology such as: born from God, children of God, faith, love, abiding, endurance, eternal life, etc., etc., etc., are all directly tied to obedience to Him. There are 1,000 +/- commandments in the NC Scriptures all directed at us.

I've had this firmly emphasized to me through extensive study in His Word. There's no way & no reason for me to deemphasize it. He's God and we're all subordinate to Him & always will be. Knowing this and functioning pursuant to this is faith and it is love.

fhansen · Aug 25, 2022

GDL said:
I'm going to add something about this faith-obedience concept. Jesus told us what God is seeking from us and he did so with great emphasis (through repetition):

NKJ John4:21-24 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

This emphasis is astounding and comes from Christ Himself. I don't recall another part of our Text where this is done. There are a few Greek words typically translated "worship." One has to do with service to God but this one literally means to bow in obeisance. It's a word of reverent submission and denotes obedience. When our Father put our Lord on this earth, this was who & what He told us our Father is now seeking. How can it get any clearer?

We can emphasize faith all we want, and we're correct in doing so, but until we see this faith-obedience connection, we really do not understand biblical faith IMO. Paul said this was His ministry, to bring the nations to faith-obedience (Romans 1:5 bookended with Romans 16:26). It was Jesus' command in what we call the Great Commission - go make disciples teaching all I've commanded - which He commanded right after He said all authority in Heaven and earth was given to Him - which He said right after some hesitated to bow in obeisance (same word as John 4) to Him (Matthew 28:17-20).

I was prompted to redeem some time rereading the NC several years back and identify in it everywhere I noticed a concept of obedience to God showing up. It took a few weeks as I recall. My highlights and notes were extensive. I made a graphic of much of the terminology directly related to and conditioned on obedience to God. Important terminology such as: born from God, children of God, faith, love, abiding, endurance, eternal life, etc., etc., etc., are all directly tied to obedience to Him. There are 1,000 +/- commandments in the NC Scriptures all directed at us.

I've had this firmly emphasized to me through extensive study in His Word. There's no way & no reason for me to deemphasize it. He's God and we're all subordinate to Him & always will be. Knowing this and functioning pursuant to this is faith and it is love.

I like that. And to the extent that the subordination is based on mutual love between creature and Creator, obdedience will flow of its own accord. Were obligated to that obedience in any case, to that love, and yet only with God can we hope to get there. So the first step is turning to Him in faith, in acknowledgement of our own need for Him.

GDL · Aug 26, 2022

fhansen said:
So the first step is turning to Him in faith, in acknowledgement of our own need for Him.

What comes first? Since we're commanded to believe, our belief is simultaneous with our obedience - our believing is obedience no matter what we favor discussing the most.

Mr. M · Aug 26, 2022

Jesus is my Superhero said:
And Jer.9:23 - 24 fits your original passage from Micah:

23This is what the LORD says: “Let no wise man boast of his wisdom, nor let the mighty man boast of his might, nor a rich man boast of his riches; 24but let the one who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises [f]mercy, justice, and righteousness on the earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.

Quoted by Paul, in case for some, who try to dodge the words of the prophets.
1 Corinthians 1:
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Mr. M · Aug 26, 2022

fhansen said:
So without this obedience one cannot be-or isn’t-saved?

This is not a salvation issue, it is an assessment (visitation) issue.
A judgment/reward issue.
Luke 12:
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Believers are judged more harshly than unbelievers for the same or similar offense, because they are expected to know better. To know and do the Master's Will. This is not about getting saved, it is about living
a life that is well pleasing in His sight.
Of "working out your salvation in fear and trembling".
Something that seems to be a bit unpopular. Go figure.

GDL · Aug 27, 2022

fhansen said:
So without this obedience one cannot be-or isn’t-saved?

Minister Monardo said:
This is not a salvation issue, it is an assessment (visitation) issue.
A judgment/reward issue.
Luke 12:
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Believers are judged more harshly than unbelievers for the same or similar offense, because they are expected to know better. To know and do the Master's Will. This is not about getting saved, it is about living
a life that is well pleasing in His sight.
Of "working out your salvation in fear and trembling".
Something that seems to be a bit unpopular. Go figure.

Seems like a good place to ask for some explanation and have some discussion regarding faith & obedience.

Questions:

As I understand your first statement, you're saying obedience is not a salvation issue (that we're not saved by obedience), but obedience is a judgment/reward issue after we're saved, and you tie this post salvation obedience to Philippians 2:12, correct?

So, it looks like you're using "salvation" to mean what happens when we first believe, correct?

I'd like to make certain we're speaking the same language, so we can have the best discussion. And we might have to work on this to make certain we are.

A few points for discussion:

In some of my previous posts, I use Scripture and simple logic to make the case that our faith is obedience to God. IMO I can elaborate using more Scripture to substantiate this and am happy to do so.

I also think I can use a clear path from the Gospel message itself, via Paul, to show why faith & obedience are necessary for our entrance into Christ and the reason we're not seeing this is because we're so entrenched in the faith alone traditions, which are debated in faith-alone vs. faith is never alone arguments that have been going on for centuries at minimum.

I will also say this about Philippians 2:12 before closing but I think the above should be our starting points:

I've been using some powerful, exegetical oriented Bible software for about 3 decades, so I'm currently looking at 11 English translations & a couple Greek manuscripts for this discussion. I'm also seminary trained in Greek exegesis and have been working exegetically in the Text for 2+ decades. I don't give you this information to say that I'm infallible, but just to let you know what I'm doing when I discuss our Text. I'm looking beyond translations.

These 11 translations all translate the applicable Greek word as "work out" your salvation...
- The Greek word is "katergazomai" and one of our most favored Greek Lexicons (BDAG) defines this word as:
  - To bring about a result by doing something, achieve, accomplish, do
  - To cause a state or condition, bring about, produce, create
  - To cause to be well prepared, prepare [someone for something]
  - To be successful in the face of obstacles, overpower, subdue, conquer
- At root of this word is the Greek word ergon, which is normally translated "work."
- There is also the form ergazomai, which means per the same Lexicon: to engage in activity that involves effort, to work; to do or accomplish something through work
- katergazomai is a compound word consisting of the preposition kata + ergazomai. Typically, this structure places some type of emphasis on the word's meaning. In my work, I see ergazomai being the work to accomplish & the emphasized katergazomai being the accomplishment by work
- With that detailed, I think the translators have been sensitive to the "works of law' debates and the traditions that have come through interpreting the "works salvation" topic. This topic and its related terminology have been studied and discussed since the writings of the Church fathers and it is still being studied and discussed. I just read a recently published book discussing the historical views, debates and current studies on the phrase "under law." This whole topic of salvation and related terminology is still under study.
Here's my take on Philippians 2:12:
- We Christians are being commanded to accomplish [by work] our salvation with fear and trembling. And this being in the preceding context of Jesus Christ's willing subordination & obedience to God our Father, Paul's command that we have Christ's mindset, the exalted Lordship of Jesus Christ, and our continuing obedience to Christ & Apostolic command. Then, immediately following context and explanation that God is energizing/operating (energeo) in us to both will and work for His good pleasure.
- The language is clear IMO:
  - God is operating in us to desire to work and to work to do what pleases Him in His Salvation Plan
  - We're commanded to accomplish our Salvation by working with God as He operates in us
  - The fear and trembling language pertains directly to remaining in obedience to God and doing what He is commanding us here and not going against what He is operating in us to get us to accomplish with Him.

This is all at once:

Post-salvation work in obedience to God
Continuing salvation work in obedience to God
Looking forward to accomplishing salvation in obedience to God

Also, if fhansen should read this, please note the language in this verse:

NKJ Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

This is a tie back to John 4 where we're emphatically told by our Lord Jesus Christ that God is seeking those who will bow in obeisance (translated "worship") in Spirit and truth, and this is in the context of salvation & Jesus being the Messiah (translated "Christ").

Apologies, but it's difficult to remain brief. Can we begin with my "Questions" asked above?

Mr. M · Aug 27, 2022

GDL said:
So, it looks like you're using "salvation" to mean what happens when we first believe, correct?

That is how others are using it, I do not. That is
what I am addressing, trying to clarify.
Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

I have been reading your posts all along and I fully agree with you. What I am addressing is the notion
that an act of disobedience causes someone to lose
their salvation. The Righteous Judgment of the Lord
is that we will give an account of what we have been
entrusted. It is about falling short of the Glory that
is available for the Saints to be partakers.
2 John 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but we may receive a full reward.
Many have reduced the idea of reward to
dying and going to heaven. Paul gives a
beautiful analogy to clarify.
1 Corinthians 15:
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

GDL said:

Paul said this was His ministry, to bring the nations to faith-obedience (Romans 1:5 bookended with Romans 16:26).

Click to expand...

Spot on.

Mr. M · Aug 27, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

1 John 5:
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

GDL · Aug 27, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
That is how others are using it, I do not. That is
what I am addressing, trying to clarify.
Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Thank you for the clarification. Appreciated and in agreement.

Minister Monardo said:
I have been reading your posts all along and I fully agree with you. What I am addressing is the notion
that an act of disobedience causes someone to lose
their salvation. The Righteous Judgment of the Lord
is that we will give an account of what we have been
entrusted. It is about falling short of the Glory that
is available for the Saints to be partakers.
2 John 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but we may receive a full reward.
Many have reduced the idea of reward to
dying and going to heaven. Paul gives a
beautiful analogy to clarify.
1 Corinthians 15:
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

So, a [true] believer cannot lose his or her salvation?

Minister Monardo said:
Spot on.

Thanks! Nice to see someone who gets this. I'd also add at minimum Romans 15:18

Mr. M · Aug 27, 2022

GDL said:
So, a [true] believer cannot lose his or her salvation?

Clarified in the follow-up post.

Minister Monardo said:
1 John 5:
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

GDL · Aug 27, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
Clarified in the follow-up post.

Thanks. Understood this.

To be clear, how about falling away, not enduring, choosing to depart, and such?

Mr. M · Aug 27, 2022

GDL said:
So, a [true] believer cannot lose his or her salvation?

Hebrews 3:
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15 while it is said:
Today, if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.

If we are exhorted to not allow our heart to be
hardened, it becomes intuitively obvious that
we can, and under the conditional IF, used
throughout the apostolic doctrine.
Romans 8:
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

At this point I am regretably concerned over who
is actually hearing and obeying the Voice of the Spirit.
SHEMA Hearken O Israel=Listen and Obey.
Isaiah 1:19

Mr. M · Aug 27, 2022

GDL said:
Thanks. Understood this.

To be clear, how about falling away, not enduring, choosing to depart, and such?

Matthew 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the agape (love of God) of many will grow cold.

One must first receive agape before allowing this
divine love to go cold.

GDL · Aug 27, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
If we are exhorted to not allow our heart to be
hardened, it becomes intuitively obvious that
we can, and under the conditional IF, used
throughout the apostolic doctrine.

As I'm sure you know well, it's intuitively obvious to some, but not all.

Minister Monardo said:
At this point I am regretably concerned over who
is actually hearing and obeying the Voice of the Spirit.
SHEMA Hearken O Israel=Listen and Obey.
Isaiah 1:19

Understood & thanks again.

Re: 1 John 5:16 "there is a sin unto death" ties to?

GDL · Aug 27, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
Matthew 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the agape (love of God) of many will grow cold.

One must first receive agape before allowing this
divine love to go cold.

More of the intuitively obvious as I read you.

I realize logic is not an end to itself, but...

Mr. M · Aug 27, 2022

GDL said:
Re: 1 John 5:16 "there is a sin unto death" ties to?

Start here.
1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Here is a wonderful contemplation.
1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters.

So Peter includes "busybodies" with murderers and
other evildoers! Is it not because they are playing
god in another's walk?
See the WOES of Matthew 23

Micah 6:8

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