Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2022

eleos1954 said:
Obedience to the law is nothing new.

The "new covenant" is the old covenant RENEWED.

The NT calls it the "New" Covenant, starting with Jesus (Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25), and never calls it the "Renewed" Covenant.

That is a false doctrine of man.

eleos1954 · Aug 25, 2022

Clare73 said:
The NT calls it the "New" Covenant, starting with Jesus (Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25), and never calls it the "Renewed" Covenant.

That is a false doctrine of man.

Same law - nothing new

Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

Both the Hebrew chadash (Jer. 31:31) and the Greek kainos (Heb. 8:8) words for "new" may be more properly translated "renewed" as opposed to "new" or "brand-new" in certain contexts.

Chadash may mean new in quality, not new in time (1 Sam. 11:14; 2 Chron. 15:8; 24:4, 12; Job 10:7; Psa. 103:5; 104:30; Isa. 61:4; Lam. 5:21). It may also mean to "renew" or "repair". For instance, in Psalm 51:10 David says, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." David uses the same word as in Jeremiah 31:31 (chadash). David was not asking for something brand-new, but was asking for a renewal of what he had previously. In 2 Chronicles 24:4, 12 we see the use of the terms repair and restore (root, chadash) with the already existent house of the Lord. So, in all these verses, there is a renewal, a repairing, a restoring of that which was already in existence. The same is true for Jeremiah 31.

In the New Testament, of the eight times that "new" is applied to the New Covenant, seven of them use the term kainos - meaning "renewed," or "new in quality," not necessarily time (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:13; 9:15) as opposed to neos (meaning new in time - Heb. 12:24). The use of term kainos means there was a pre-existing covenant to which Jesus gave a qualitative difference.

We see the use of kainos more clearly in such verses as John 13:34, where the commandment to love one another was not brand-new (i.e. neos). After all, this commandment was the very heart of the Old Covenant (Lev. 19:18; et al.); Jesus simply added a new quality to the Old Covenant command, "as I have loved you". Another example may be helpful: When Paul was preaching Jesus, some accused him of preaching a new doctrine (Acts 17:18-19). Here, the doctrine of Christ was not brand-new and had been around for some time - and not only in the New Testament (Gal. 3:8). However, it was unfamiliar to his present audience, therefore this was kainos, not neos.

As to the one verse that uses neos to describe the New Covenant (Heb. 12:24), it simply means Jesus was the "brand-new" (neos) Administrator of the re-newed (kainos) covenant (as opposed to Moses some two thousand years earlier). This is brand-new and makes the covenant re-newal possible.

Some attempt to make the case that since the New Covenant has a better sacrifice (Heb. 9:23), mediator (Heb. 8:6; 9:15, 24; 12:24), ministration in the spirit (2 Cor. 3:6), high priest (Heb. 7:24-28; 8:1-6), priesthood after the order of Melkizedek (Heb. 7), promise (Heb. 7:24-25; 8:5; 9:1), and tabernacle made without hands (Heb. 8:1-6; 9:11, 24), this New Covenant must mean brand-new. However, the covenant with Moses is not obsolete (Heb. 8:13) in the sense it has no value. After all, Jesus, the administrator of the New Covenant, embraced the Old as relevant and even taught it to his disciples. Similarly, the Ten Commandments still have relevance today (Matt 22:36-40). However, the Old Covenant is obsolete from the standpoint that Christ's priesthood has superseded its priestly institutions.

Jeremiah and the author of Hebrews both spoke about a covenant already in existence, but that became re-newed in character or quality and not one that was absolutely brand-new. The eternal covenant (Gen. 17:9-13) became renewed in Christ (Rom. 15:8-9).

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2022

eleos1954 said:
Same law - nothing new
Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.
Both the Hebrew chadash (Jer. 31:31) and the Greek kainos (Heb. 8:8) words for "new" may be more properly translated "renewed" as opposed to "new" or "brand-new" in certain contexts.

Chadash may mean new in quality, not new in time

Au contraire. . .
It means new in quality. . .and new in form. . .of a different nature, all of which are new, and none of which are a re-newal.

The Old Covenant was bilateral and based on law-keeping, while
the New Covenant is unilateral and based on faith/grace.
Grace is not a "renewal" of law-keeping, in the NT grace is opposed to law-keeping.

SabbathBlessings · Aug 25, 2022

Clare73 said:
Au contraire. . .
It means new in quality. . .and new in form. . .of a different nature, all of which are new, and none of which are a re-newal.

The Old Covenant was bilateral and based on law-keeping, the New Covenant is unilateral and based on faith/grace.
Grace is not a "renewal" of law-keeping, in the NT grace is opposed to law-keeping.

No one is ever saved by law keeping in the entire bible. Everyone is saved by grace through faith. Keeping God's law is an outward expression of being transformed from the inside. Keeping the law to be saved won't save you if one does not have a changed heart. Knowingly sinning (breaking God’s law) won’t save you either. Hebrews 10:26-30

John Mullally · Aug 25, 2022

eleos1954 said:
Same law - nothing new

The NT trumps the OT as things are not static and as the OT was written to the Jews, but the NT was written to NT believers. New Covenant means exactly that. I say that per the Apostles, Gentile believers do not need to keep most of the Mosaic Law based upon Acts 15:23-29 and later repeated in Acts 21:24-25. I would be interested in how you interpret the text in bold from Paul below:

Acts 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Per Jewish scholars the Mosaic law includes the 10 commandments. What is Paul getting at - saying the Gentile believers only need to keep four ordinances from the Mosaic law? Is he cancelling most of the 10 commandments? Jewish scholars say the 10 commandments are part of the Mosaic law. Are you going to reply by repeating OT directives - thus ignoring Paul who wrote half of the NT? Are you going to examine what Paul states without prejudice?

HIM · Aug 25, 2022

Clare73 said:
What cannot be contested honestly is:

Hebrews 3:7-4:11 where in 4:7-11, as God rested from the work of creation, the believer ceases his efforts to gain salvation by his own works and rests in the finished work of Christ on the cross. (Hebrews 4:10)

Canaan was God's promised rest from their enemies (Joshua 1:13; Exodus 33:14; Deuteronomy 12:9-10, Deuteronomy 25:19) into which they refused to go (Numbers 14), and which God swore an oath in his anger, "They shall never enter my rest," (Hebrews 3:11, 3:18, 4:3), which is his full-time rest from his creation work (Hebrews 4:3-4).
But there still remains, apart from Canaan's promised rest, a Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:6-9).
The NT believer enters "another" (Hebrews 4:8) Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:9-11); i.e., God's own ("my," Hebrews 3:11, 4:1, 3, 5, 10) full-time (Hebrews 4:3-4) rest, in the believer's full-time salvation rest by faith (Hebrews 4:10-11).

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law (Matthew 5:17), including the Sabbath, in whom we rest from our own work to save, and in his work which saves.

Feel free to exegete Hebrews 3:7-4:11, accounting for
1) Christian Hebrews being instructed to enter their Sabbath rest (4:1),
2) references to Canaan (3:8-9, 15-18, 4:2, 6, 8) in relation to the Sabbath,
3) God's full-time rest from his creation work (4:3-4) and
4) another Sabbath rest of "Today" remaining for the people of God (4:7-9)
all in consistency with the passage.

Clare73 said:
Agreed. . .

Feel free to exegete Hebrews 3:7-4:11, accounting for
1) Christian Hebrews being instructed to enter their Sabbath rest (4:1),
2) references to Canaan (3:8-9, 15-18, 4:2, 6, 8) in relation to the Sabbath,
3) God's full-time rest from his creation work (4:3-4) and
4) another Sabbath rest of "Today" remaining for the people of God (4:7-9)
all in consistency with the passage.

Making a statement about a verse or verses doesn't make it true. That is all you done here. You have to prove that a verse is implying something by it's grammar and context to itself and the surrounding passages and then maybe if necessary how other verses allude to the same point.

You are wrong right from the start in your first point and 2nd. Verse 4:1 is not talking about the Sabbath at all. The Sabbath is not even mentioned until verse 4 and 5. And the rest in Canaan was a shadow of the spiritual rest in which is offered us through the Gospel not the Sabbath rest which is physical. And your 4th point is just floating there as if there are no other surrounding passages.

Starting in Chapter 3 in Hebrews as you requested verse 1 starts with the word "wherefore" in the KJV. Therefore we must understand what was said before we read what is about to be shared. So what was previously stated. Well the last indicative statement was That Jesus made reconciliation for our sins and because he himself was tempted He is here to help us when we are (verse 2:17,18). So in respect to Him helping us when we are tempted. The text in chapter 3 goes on to compare this helping to that of taking care of His house which we are if we continue to hold fast the confidence, the boldness and the rejoicing of this hope of reconciliation and His helping firm, unto the end. The text goes on to say in verse 7, Wherefore, because of what was just said. Today hear His voice, harden not your hearts as they did when your Fathers tempted me for forty years. How was God tempted, grieved with the fathers, that generation. Because they always erred in their hearts and they refused to follow in my way says the Lord. So He swore they shall never enter into the Promised Land, His rest which shadowed the Gospel rest which is in Christ Jesus. (Verse 12) So take heed my Brothers and sisters LEST any of you of an evil heart of unbelief (disobedient faithlessness) depart from the Living God, hardened through the DECEITFULNESS OF SIN (verse13). For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold to our confidence, that we have been reconciled and He is there to help when we are tempted steadfast unto the end. So hardened not your hearts through the deceitfulness of sin as they did in the wilderness. For some did provoke, because of their sin. And God was grieved and their carcasses fell right there in the wilderness.( verses 16,17). So we see that they could not enter into His rest of the promise land which shadow the rest which is of Christ through the Gospel. (Verse19) because of their unbelief, their disobedient faithlessness due to their harden hearts through the deceitfulness of sin.

Then in context to that the writer goes on to say in chapter 4, Fear lest a promise left for us to enter into His rest we should come short of. Verse 2 goes on to tell us that this rest is the Gospel and that this Gospel was preached to them as well but did no good because they had an harden evil heart of unbelief due to the deceitfulness of sin as chapter 3 had concluded. However verse 3 states that they who have believe do enter into this rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus. And it goes on to say something that most miss. That the works for this rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus were finished from the foundation of the world. To prove this verse 4 goes on to say. For, because we have proof. For He spake in certain place. God only spoke in one place of the Seventh Day and that was on Mt Sinai. And of the Seventh Day He said on this wise, "And God did rest on the Seventh Day from all His works."

Then in verse 5 the writer says something again most miss. He says, "And in this again"

In this again what?

He speaks of the Seventh Day IF they shall enter into the spiritual rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus. How did God speak of the Seventh Day on Mt Sinai? He spoke it on that certain day as a commandment. So we who have enter into the spiritual rest which is the Gospel are to realise that God again is speaking of the fact that He rested on the Seventh Day from all His works. But how is He speaking? verse 9 and 10 tell us.

But first in respect to the fact that some have not entered into the Rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus as verse one stated he continues in verse 6-8 in respect to verse 1 in a call to repentance. He says Today hear His voice, harden not your heart. For if Joshua entering into the promise land with the people was the rest then God would not have afterward spoke of the rest which is the Gospel Rest in Christ Jesus.

Then the writer goes back to verse 4 and 5 as he continues. He says in respect to God again speaking of the Seventh day that a Sabbath Keeping remains for the people of God. He says that he that has enter into the rest which is the Gospel in Christ Jesus has ALSO, in addition to ceases from their own work AS God did from His. Two SEPARATE things being mentioned. The rest which is the Gospel and a ceasing from work as God did. Since now we are partaking of the spiritual rest in Christ we can also rest physically on the Sabbath and not defile the day that we are told to keep holy through the spiritual rest we now have in Christ.

The word "as" denotes a direct comparison. That means that as God ceased from His work so so do we. God ceased from physical work and was refreshed. We are now because we have been sanctified through Christ enter the Sabbath without defiling it and rest physically as He spoke on that certain day as He did.

Take care.

JulieB67 · Aug 25, 2022

HIM said:
Making a statement about a verse or verses doesn't make it true

The same could be said the same for you.

HIM said:
Verse 2 goes on to tell us that this rest is the Gospel

It does not state that at all. The gospel itself is not rest. It is the good news. The people couldn't enter into rest because they didn't receive the gospel with faith/belief. That is the entire point of the verses from chapter 3 and 4. Not about keeping the weekly Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

It states right there that the gospel was preached to them but the word did not profit them, because people did not receive it with faith. Just as the ones prior could not enter in the promised land because of unbelief.

If we have any lack of faith or unbelief, naturally we can't enter in to that rest.

Hebrews 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, "As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest:" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

Hebrews 4:4 "For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, "And God did rest the seventh day from all His works."

The example rest follows works.

Hebrews 4:5 "And in this place again, "If they shall enter into My rest."

Hebrews 4:6 "Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:"

Hebrews 4:7 "Again, He limiteth a certain day, saying in David, "To day," after so long a time; as it is said, "to day if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts."

Hebrews 4:8 "For if Jesus (Joshua) had given them rest, then would He not afterward have spoken of another day."

Hebrews 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

Sabbatimos -the repose of Christianity (a type of Heaven) rest. This is not the weekly Sabbath keeping. And it does not state that. But people continue to submit their own defintion in it.

The weekly Sabbath keeping is Sabbaton. Greek word 4521, right under Sabbatimos 4520.

Hebrews 4:10 "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His."

Christ did the work on the cross so we can enter in.

We're talking about "his rest" not a day.

Hebrews 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, least any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

What rest? Christ's rest -Sabbatimos, the repose of Christianity. The only time that Sabbatimos is used in this fashion. This is not a commandment to keep the weekly Sabbath which again is Sabbaton. Quite the opposite. Verse 11 ties into verse 10 and ends on that note. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest -his rest.

SabbathBlessings · Aug 25, 2022

JulieB67 said:
Hebrews 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

Sabbatimos -the repose of Christianity (a type of Heaven) rest. This is not the weekly Sabbath keeping. And it does not state that. But people continue to submit their own defintion in it.

The weekly Sabbath keeping is Sabbaton. Greek word 4521, right under Sabbatimos 4520.

How can something be "remaineth" if it was never given to anyone in the first place. The Sabbath commandment was given Hebrews 4:4 "For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, "And God did rest the seventh day from all His works."

The certain place was Mt Sanai and the one who was speaking is God our Creator who commanded us to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8-11 just like God did from creation Genesis 2:1-2 we are to follow His example as we are made in His image.

Hebrews 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

The word rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

We already know that, people God said there is a sign between God and His people who keep the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:20

JulieB67 said:
Hebrews 4:10 "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His."

Christ did the work on the cross so we can enter in.

We're talking about "his rest" not a day.

You are reading Christ on the cross into this passage which has nothing to do with this passage or the rest in Christ that is received when we also cease from our works as God did from His on the seventh day. Hebrews 4:10, Hebrews 4:4, Genesis 2:1-3, Keeping the Sabbath is the door to the rest in Christ. We are blessed when we obey Isaiah 58:13-14 not by our disobedience as shown Hebrews 4:6

HIM · Aug 25, 2022

JulieB67 said:
The same could be said the same for you.

It does not state that at all. The gospel itself is not rest. It is the good news. The people couldn't enter into it because of lack of faith. That is the entire point of the verses from chapter 3 and 4. Not about keeping the weekly Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

It states right there that the gospel was preached to them but the word did not profit them, because people did not receive it with faith. Just as the ones prior could not enter in the promised land because of unbelief.

If we have any lack of faith or unbelief, naturally we can't enter in to that rest.

Hebrews 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, "As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest:" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

Hebrews 4:4 "For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, "And God did rest the seventh day from all His works."

The example rest follows works.

Hebrews 4:5 "And in this place again, "If they shall enter into My rest."

Hebrews 4:6 "Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:"

Hebrews 4:7 "Again, He limiteth a certain day, saying in David, "To day," after so long a time; as it is said, "to day if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts."

Hebrews 4:8 "For if Jesus (Joshua) had given them rest, then would He not afterward have spoken of another day."

Hebrews 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

Sabbatimos -the repose of Christianity (a type of Heaven) rest. This is not the weekly Sabbath keeping. And it does not state that. But people continue to submit their own defintion in it.

The weekly Sabbath keeping is Sabbaton. Greek word 4521, right under Sabbatimos 4520.

Hebrews 4:10 "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His."

Christ did the work on the cross so we can enter in.

We're talking about "his rest" not a day.

Hebrews 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, least any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

What rest? Christ's rest -Sabbatimos, the repose of Christianity. The only time that Sabbatimos is used in this fashion. This is not a commandment to keep the weekly Sabbath which again is Sabbaton. Quite the opposite. Verse 11 ties into verse 10 and ends on that note. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest -his rest.

You obviously did not read the post, understand it or just made a knee jerk response. If you are not going to take the time to answer the points of the post then we afford to you the same courtesy.

Take care

BobRyan · Aug 25, 2022

John Mullally said:
Acts 15:23-29 does not mention made-up man-made tradition

It begins with that very thing.

Not with "scripture says -A- and we must stop/end scripture" -- but rather that "certain Christian Jews say -A- and that is a problem".

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
...
24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have confused you by their teaching, upsetting your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you

That chapter makes it clear that it is not scripture and it is not church tradition but rather it is the man-made ideas of 'SOME of OUR number'. The source is not God, not scripture and not the united leadership of the Apostolic church - according to Acts 15.

Missing that detail at the very start -- would lead to some other problems in reading the text.

John Mullally said:
- it references which portions of the Mosaic law that Gentile believers are required to keep

There is not single point of scripture in the OT that says gentiles are required to keep something - and then getting mentioned in Acts 15 as "a problem"

Another key detail that if one misses it - then it leads to some flawed inference , assumptions and conclusions.

John Mullally said:
. The Acts 15:23-29 letter was written to Gentile believers who were not particularly educated or knowledgeable of Jewish law.

Acts 15 makes no reference to uneducated gentiles

In fact - Acts 17 has a number of educated gentiles - but one does not expect that they would have known as much about the true scriptures (what Jesus called the "Word of GOD" in Mark 7) as did the Jews.

John Mullally said:
How do verses 28-29 in particular make sense to you - why are the Gentile believers only required to keep four for the most part minor sections of the Mosaic law?

IN THE CONTEXT of the statement that the gentiles are in the synagogues every Sabbath hearing the teaching of Moses (which James points out as part of the solution to the problem that came up) - the christian gentiles are hearing scripture every week - as we see in Acts 13, in Acts 17 and in Acts 18. So then in that context the NT Jewish leaders of the Apostolic church chose only to emphasize certain risks for gentiles addressed by the command to avoid sexual sin, and avoid idol worship of any kind, as well as avoiding the eating of meat that still had blood in it. All things that the NT church considered a new gentile Christian to be at risk of falling into given their prior pagan life .

John Mullally said:
Are you still clinging to the position that the 10 commandments given by Moses are not a part of the Mosaic laws -

step 1. Quote me saying I believe that before accusing me of it.

John Mullally said:
How do you think the Gentile believers understood it? Or do you think the letter is unintelligible?

I think they could read - and could see that there is no command in scripture for gentiles to be circumcised and that the NT apostolic leaders were helpful in noting that these guys were making stuff up which the Apostolic leadership had not authorized.

I think it would have been "Very surprising" to gentiles in the Jewish Synagogues every Sabbath in Acts 13, and Acts 17 and Acts 18 - who had never been told by the Jews that gentiles must be circumcised to be saved - and then when they become Christians - having "Some people" from Jerusalem start making that idea up.

As a gentile myself I can understand how a Christian Gentile would start off with the choice to

Accept Christ,
to be a Christian
following the teachings of Christ
admit that scripture is the Word of God (since even Christ is the way the truth and the life).

Such a gentile would love to read the Word of God rather than seek to avoid it at every possible turn in the road.

When this gentile Christian reads Mark 7:6-13 he finds the teaching of Christ declaring that "Word of God" = "Commandment of God" = "Moses said" . And so would pay attention to whatever it says as being applicable to "all mankind" as we find in the case of Sabbath in Is 66:23

No wonder Bible scholars in almost all major Christian denominations affirm that all TEN of the Commandments are included in the moral law of God applicable to all mankind.

John Mullally · Aug 25, 2022

BobRyan said:
It begins with that very thing.

Not with "scripture says -A- and we must stop scripture -- but rather that certain Christian Jews say -A- and that is a problem.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
...
24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have confused you by their teaching, upsetting your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you

That chapter makes it clear that it is not scripture and it is not church tradition but rather it is the man-made ideas of 'SOME of OUR number'. The source is not God, not scripture and not the united leadership of the Apostolic church - according to Acts 15.

Missing that detail at the very start -- would lead to some other problems in reading the text.

Nothing in the letter to Gentiles (Acts 15:23-29) says anything about man-made ideas - you injected that!

BobRyan said:
There is not single point of scripture in the OT that says gentiles are required to keep something - and then getting mentioned in Acts 15 as "a problem"

Judaizers were requiring the Gentile believers keep the law of Moses - to which the Apostles objected. Read Acts 15:24.

BobRyan said:
Another key detail that if one misses it - then it leads to some flawed inference , assumptions and conclusions.
Acts 15 makes no reference to unneducated gentiles - Acts 17 has a number of educated gentiles - but one does not expect that they would have known as much about the true scriptures as did the Jews

I never said scripture made mention of Gentile believer education and you know that - but we can assume it was low by today's standards. In other words you cannot dodge my questions by claiming ignorance.

BobRyan said:
IN THE CONTEXT of the statement that the gentiles are in the synagogues every Sabbath hearing the teaching of Moses (which James points out as part of the solution to the problem that came up) - the christian gentiles are hearing scripture every week - as we see in Acts 13, in Acts 17 and in Acts 18.

Attending synagogue was not included in the letter - again you injected that.

BobRyan said:
So then in that context the NT Jewish leaders of the Apostolic church chose only to emphasize certain risks for gentiles addressed by the command to avoid sexual sin, and avoid idol worship of any kind, as well as avoiding the eating of meat that still had blood in it. All things that the NT church considered a new gentile Christian to be at risk of falling into given their prior pagan life.

Wrong, but nice try. The letter did not state your reasoning - so again you inject into the text. Given what was actually stated the Gentile Christians were not obliged to Keep the Sabbath.

BobRyan said:
step 1. Quote me saying I believe that before accusing me of it.

Lighten up - asking is not accusation. Comprende? You believe that the 10 commandments are part of the Mosaic Law, I am glad you agree - others argue differently.

BobRyan said:
I think they could read - and could see that there is no command in scripture for gentiles to be circumcised and that the NT apostolic leaders were helpful in noting that these guys were making stuff up which the Apostolic leadership had not authorized.

Wrong. In verse 24, the Apostles said the Judaizers were troubling them with a requirement to both be circumcised and keep the law. It was the purpose for the Jerusalem Council and writing the letter!

BobRyan said:
I think it would have been "Very surprising" to gentiles in the Jewish Synagogues every Sabbath in Acts 13, and Acts 17 and Acts 18 - who had never been told by the Jews that gentiles must be circumcised to be saved - and then when they become Christians - having "Some people" from Jerusalem start making that idea up.

Those portions were never included in the letter to the Gentiles (Acts 15:23-29) - so they are not pertanent.

BobRyan said:
As a gentile myself I can understand how a Christian Gentile would start off with the choice to Accept Christ, to be a Christian in following the teachings of Christ and not admit that scripture is the Word of God (since even Christ is the way the truth and the life). Such a gentile would love to read the Word of God rather than seek to avoid it at every possible turn in the road.

Again, more narrative about that which has no significance to the topic: Acts 15:23-29. Enough posturing!

JulieB67 · Aug 25, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
You are reading Christ on the cross into this passage which has nothing to do with this passage or the rest in Christ that is received when we also cease from our works as God did from His on the seventh day. Hebrews 4:10, Hebrews 4:4, Genesis 2:1-3, Keeping the Sabbath is the door to the rest in Christ. We are blessed when we obey Isaiah 58:13-14 not by our disobedience as shown Hebrews 4:6

And you are reading the "keeping of the weekly Sabbath into these scriptures when it's Christ's rest that we must enter. Sabbatimos is not the weekly Sabbath. You can keep overlooking the word Sabbaton but it will not change that fact.

This entire chapter and some of the previous is about not entering in because of lack of faith and unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."

His rest. He doesn't want anyone to come short of his rest.

The door to his rest is faith and belief period. That's what the scriptures states.

Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

The gospel didn't profit them because faith was not a factor when they heard it.

Hebrews 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, "As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest:" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

The door is just given to us, "for we which have believed do enter into rest" It does not say for we which have observed the weekly Sabbath do enter into rest.

A day can never give you a perpetual rest, that's why it was a shadow of things to come -Christ.

Hebrews 4:4 "For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, "And God did rest the seventh day from all His works."

This just means rest follows works.

Hebrews 4:5 "And in this place again, "If they shall enter into My rest."

Hebrews 4:6 "Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:"

They couldn't enter in because of unbelief.

Again, it all boils down to the final verse which gives us the complete context of what we just read.

Hebrews 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, least any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

SabbathBlessings · Aug 25, 2022

JulieB67 said:
And you are reading the "keeping of the weekly Sabbath into these scriptures when it's Christ's rest that we must enter. Sabbatimos is not the weekly Sabbath. You can keep overlooking the word Sabbaton but it will not change that fact.

This entire chapter and some of the previous is about not entering in because of lack of faith and unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."

His rest. He doesn't want anyone to come short of his rest.

The door to his rest is faith and belief period. That's what the scriptures states.

Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

The gospel didn't profit them because faith was not a factor when they heard it.

Hebrews 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, "As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest:" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

The door is just given to us, "for we which have believed do enter into rest" It does not say for we which have observed the weekly Sabbath do enter into rest.

A day can never give you a perpetual rest, that's why it was a shadow of things to come -Christ.

Hebrews 4:4 "For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, "And God did rest the seventh day from all His works."

This just means rest follows works.

Hebrews 4:5 "And in this place again, "If they shall enter into My rest."

Hebrews 4:6 "Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:"

They couldn't enter in because of unbelief.

Again, it all boils down to the final verse which gives us the complete context of what we just read.

Hebrews 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, least any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

Because there are two different rest being discussed, the weekly Sabbath rest and the rest in Christ. In order to enter into the rest in Christ we must cease from our works (on the seventh day) as God did from His (on the seventh day) Hebrews 4:10, Hebrews 4:4, Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11

I am not adding any words here because according to God, the seventh day is the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 and to say otherwise is arguing with our Most High, because these are His Words, He wrote these words with His own finger Exodus 31:18 and spoke them with His own voice Exodus 20, I don't think He wanted any misunderstanding about His holy law.

I am not overlooking the word Sabbaton because that is not what is used for Hebrews 4:9

The word rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Which reconciles with the whole bible. The saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12 there is no scripture saying we can break one of God's commandments and that of course include the Sabbath commandment and God's holy Sabbath day, which continues to be the Lords chosen day of worship for all eternity Isaiah 66:22-23.

BobRyan · Aug 25, 2022

BobRyan said:
It begins with that very thing.

Not with "scripture says -A- and we must stop/end scripture"

but rather that "certain Christian Jews say -A- and that is a problem".

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
...
24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have confused you by their teaching, upsetting your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you

That chapter makes it clear that it is not scripture and it is not church tradition but rather it is the man-made ideas of 'SOME of OUR number'. The source is not God, not scripture and not the united leadership of the Apostolic church - according to Acts 15.

Missing that detail at the very start -- would lead to some other problems in reading the text.
.

John Mullally said:
Nothing in the letter to Gentiles (Acts 15:23-29) says anything about man-made ideas - you injected that!

Now see! That is a perfect contrast between the details in the text I am highlighting and your objection to it. This makes it very clear for the objective unbiased readers!

Perfect!

I will leave it at that for this post - so we can all savor the clarity such a comparison provides for the objective unbiased reader

BobRyan · Aug 25, 2022

John Mullally said:
Judaizers were requiring the Gentile believers keep the law of Moses - to which the Apostles objected. Read Acts 15:24.

Because unlike commands in the scriptures including in the Law of Moses such as
"Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

There are some portions of the Law of Moses that apply only to Jews and were never given to gentiles.

Unlike the Sabbath where in Is 56:2-7 gentiles are SPECIFICALLY singled out for Sabbath keeping.

A Bible detail so glaringly obvious that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denomination admit to it - on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate.

BobRyan · Aug 25, 2022

BobRyan said: ↑
IN THE CONTEXT of the statement that the gentiles are in the synagogues every Sabbath hearing the teaching of Moses (which James points out as part of the solution to the problem that came up) - the christian gentiles are hearing scripture every week - as we see in Acts 13, in Acts 17 and in Acts 18 that even non Christian gentiles are doing it.

John Mullally said:
Attending synagogue was not included in the letter - again you injected that.

Again you seem to indicate yet another detail in Acts 15 you are skimming past.

13 After they stopped speaking, James responded, saying, “Brothers, listen to me....

19 Therefore, it is my judgment that we do not cause trouble for those from the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols, from acts of sexual immorality, from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has those who preach him in every city, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Which we just saw in Acts 13 - where it was the GENTILES asking that more Bible reading, more Gospel preaching be scheduled for "THE NEXT SABBATH".

And on that NEXT SABBATH almost the entire city of gentiles showed up according to the text"

"Details" that would be hard for the objective unbiased reader to dismiss, once pointed out.

John Mullally · Aug 25, 2022

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said: ↑
IN THE CONTEXT of the statement that the gentiles are in the synagogues every Sabbath hearing the teaching of Moses (which James points out as part of the solution to the problem that came up) - the christian gentiles are hearing scripture every week - as we see in Acts 13, in Acts 17 and in Acts 18.

Again you seem to indicate yet another detail in Acts 15 you are skimming past.

13 After they stopped speaking, James responded, saying, “Brothers, listen to me....

19 Therefore, it is my judgment that we do not cause trouble for those from the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols, from acts of sexual immorality, from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has those who preach him in every city, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Which we just saw in Acts 13 - where it was the GENTILES asking that more Bible reading, more Gospel preaching be scheduled for "THE NEXT SABBATH".

And on that NEXT SABBATH almost the entire city of gentiles showed up according to the text"

"Details" that would be hard for the objective unbiased reader to dismiss, once pointed out.

Acts 15:23-29 identifies the decision from the Apostles written as a letter to the Gentiles - the rest is deliberations - which is merely historic. Its like congress negotiating over legislation - the only pertinent part is the passed bill - it matters not how they got there. From that analogy Acts 15:23-29 is the passed bill - it is the decision written by the Apostles to the Gentiles.

So regardless of whether the Gentiles are hearing scriptures weekly, the decision of Acts 15:23-29 applies and they are not required to keep the Sabbath as that is not specified in the letter.

John Mullally · Aug 25, 2022

Acts 15:23-29, which is repeated by Paul years later (Acts 21:24-25) frees Gentile believers from needing to keep most of the ceremonial Jewish Law. Per Romans 8:2, rejoice!

John Mullally · Aug 25, 2022

God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life (not Joel Osteen - but Jeremiah 29:11)!

HIM · Aug 25, 2022

John Mullally said:
Acts 15:23-29, which is repeated by Paul years later (Acts 21:24-25) frees Gentile believers from needing to keep most of the ceremonial Jewish Law. Per Romans 8:2, rejoice!

Wow now you are going to misquote Romans 8:2.

Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

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