Rev 14:8 "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great"

rwb · Aug 19, 2022

Who or what is Babylon the Great? I submit three possibilities to consider from the commentary of The Revelation by Simon J Kistemaker, these are not necessarily the only three.

1. Literal Babylon, because the name of the Euphrates River also appears (9:14; 16:23)
2. A code name for Rome, which Peter apparently used (1Pet 5:13)
3. A symbolic reference to the converging of evil in particular places throughout history

According to Simon J Kistemaker in his commentary of Revelation, "a case can be made for all three explanations, the last interpretation merits attention, first, in light of the contrast of good and evil in the Apocalypse, especially in chapter 13 and 14. And second, limiting the reference to Babylon and Rome as the most typical representatives of depravity in John's Day puts restrictions on the message of Revelation. This book addresses the universal church from the first century to the consummation, with hope and encouragement for all believers living in a world that is hostile to God and His people."

What say some of you, agree or disagree with Kistemaker and why?

rwb · Aug 19, 2022

William D Mounce, a scholar in New Testament Greek calls Babylon, "a symbol of godlessness that in every age lures people away from the worship of the Creator."

Is Babylon the great the enemy of God that as a world power oppresses the saints? And if it is how would that affect our understanding of the book of Revelation?

Matt5 · Aug 19, 2022

I have often said that one should make a list of the countries they hate. The Mystery Babylon is probably high up on that list.

If literal Babylon, Rome, Jerusalem or America were wiped off the map, who would rejoice? Muslims, maybe. Christians, no. What about heaven? I can't imagine heaven rejoicing.

If a country were reduced to a glass parking lot, who would I rejoice over? Iran.

Mr. M · Aug 19, 2022

rwb said:
What say some of you, agree or disagree with Kistemaker and why?

Even at its most benign, Babylon is the system
of the World that the Lord refers to as Mammon.
"You CANNOT serve God and Mammon."

Mr. M · Aug 19, 2022

rwb said:
Who or what is Babylon the Great? I submit three possibilities to consider from the commentary of The Revelation by Simon J Kistemaker, these are not necessarily the only three.

To try to identify a particular country or city as
Babyon offers three, or more opportunities to be wrong.
Revelation 22:
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Mr. M · Aug 19, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
To try to identify a particular country or city as
Babyon offers three, or more opportunities to be wrong.

In other words, Risky Business

rwb · Aug 19, 2022

I agree with Kistemaker because I see this evil converging in particular places beginning first with Israel, the nation greatly populated by unbelieving Christ hating Jews.

Rev 14 begins with a picture of the remnant from Old Covenant Israel in heaven before the throne, and before the four beasts, 144,000 redeemed from the earth and from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (vss. 1-5)

After seeing these saints in heaven John saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. (14:6-7)

I find this same picture repeated in Revelation. The Old Covenant as coming to an end, and the time come for the Gospel to be sent unto all the nations of the earth.

Now returning to Babylon as a symbolic reference to converging of evil in a particular place, but never limited to only one particular place but found throughout history.

The reference in chapter 14 to Babylon gives more information about how this evil was able to converge into one particular place. John tells us "which made all the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication". This alludes to the words of Jeremiah 51:7, "Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad".

I believe the evil that converged in one particular place at the beginning of the era of the Gospel was when the nations came together (Rome & Israel) to crucify the Lord. But that's not the only converging of evil we find in Revelation.

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

rwb said:
Who or what is Babylon the Great? I submit three possibilities to consider from the commentary of The Revelation by Simon J Kistemaker, these are not necessarily the only three.

1. Literal Babylon, because the name of the Euphrates River also appears (9:14; 16:23)
2. A code name for Rome, which Peter apparently used (1Pet 5:13)
3. A symbolic reference to the converging of evil in particular places throughout history

According to Simon J Kistemaker in his commentary of Revelation, "a case can be made for all three explanations, the last interpretation merits attention, first, in light of the contrast of good and evil in the Apocalypse, especially in chapter 13 and 14. And second, limiting the reference to Babylon and Rome as the most typical representatives of depravity in John's Day puts restrictions on the message of Revelation. This book addresses the universal church from the first century to the consummation, with hope and encouragement for all believers living in a world that is hostile to God and His people."

What say some of you, agree or disagree with Kistemaker and why?

The last two seem plausible - (possibly both-and) but the first one does not given the state of literal Babylon both in John's day - and ... "to this very day"

In Rev 17 Babylon appears to be a fallen religious entity -- a good thing that turned bad.

In the Bible a woman in symbolism - is a church/denomination. In Rev 17 Babylon is a woman.

In James 4:4 an unfaithful Christian is called an adulteress

in 2 Cor 11:2 a faithful Christian is a "pure virgin" in symbolism

Maria Billingsley · Aug 19, 2022

rwb said:
Who or what is Babylon the Great? I submit three possibilities to consider from the commentary of The Revelation by Simon J Kistemaker, these are not necessarily the only three.

1. Literal Babylon, because the name of the Euphrates River also appears (9:14; 16:23)
2. A code name for Rome, which Peter apparently used (1Pet 5:13)
3. A symbolic reference to the converging of evil in particular places throughout history

According to Simon J Kistemaker in his commentary of Revelation, "a case can be made for all three explanations, the last interpretation merits attention, first, in light of the contrast of good and evil in the Apocalypse, especially in chapter 13 and 14. And second, limiting the reference to Babylon and Rome as the most typical representatives of depravity in John's Day puts restrictions on the message of Revelation. This book addresses the universal church from the first century to the consummation, with hope and encouragement for all believers living in a world that is hostile to God and His people."

What say some of you, agree or disagree with Kistemaker and why?

I say Jerusalem before 70AD.

Psalm 27 · Aug 19, 2022

rwb said:
Who or what is Babylon the Great? I submit three possibilities to consider from the commentary of The Revelation by Simon J Kistemaker, these are not necessarily the only three.

1. Literal Babylon, because the name of the Euphrates River also appears (9:14; 16:23)
2. A code name for Rome, which Peter apparently used (1Pet 5:13)
3. A symbolic reference to the converging of evil in particular places throughout history

According to Simon J Kistemaker in his commentary of Revelation, "a case can be made for all three explanations, the last interpretation merits attention, first, in light of the contrast of good and evil in the Apocalypse, especially in chapter 13 and 14. And second, limiting the reference to Babylon and Rome as the most typical representatives of depravity in John's Day puts restrictions on the message of Revelation. This book addresses the universal church from the first century to the consummation, with hope and encouragement for all believers living in a world that is hostile to God and His people."

What say some of you, agree or disagree with Kistemaker and why?

Rev 18
9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
(9/11?)

Muckah · Aug 19, 2022

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

1 Pet 5:12 Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it! 13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.

Many scholars will admit that Peter went to Rome - not very many will argue that Peter went to literal Babylon.

It is very likely that John and Peter used the same code name for Rome.

Muckah said:
It's not a code name for Rome.
.

Well you have free will and can choose as you wish.

rwb · Aug 19, 2022

Maria Billingsley said:
I say Jerusalem before 70AD.

Yes, they had already become Babylonish in the sense of #3 as a convergence of evil in one place. That because the majority had long before 70 AD become desolate through forsaking the one true God of Israel, committing spiritual apostasy/adultery. But the book of Revelation was not written for apostate Jews about Babylon but to the universal churches. Warning His church about a convergence of evil that will come against the church on earth that He likens to Babylon.

Muckah · Aug 19, 2022

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

Muckah said:
Babylon is not Rome, the USA, or the EU - or anything else.
.

Well Peter claims to be in Babylon - not Egypt, the USA or the EU. And since we know he went to Rome but not literal Babylon -- this part is pretty easy.

1 Pet 5:12 Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it! 13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.

Many scholars will admit that Peter went to Rome - not very many will argue that Peter went to literal Babylon.

It is very likely that John and Peter used the same code name for Rome.

Muckah · Aug 19, 2022

Muckah · Aug 19, 2022

rwb · Aug 20, 2022

BobRyan said:
1 Pet 5:12 Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it! 13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.

Many scholars will admit that Peter went to Rome - not very many will argue that Peter went to literal Babylon.

It is very likely that John and Peter used the same code name for Rome.

I believe Peter used Babylon descriptively indicating evil influence abounding perhaps within, but most certainly without the church at that time. We see this more clearly when we read the letters John sent to the seven churches in Asia.

1 Peter 5:13 (KJV) The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

rwb · Aug 20, 2022

Muckah said:
I have no doubt Peter went to Rome.

There were other places in the region at the time called Babylon. One was in Egypt. Babylon is Babylon.

Babylon is not Rome, the USA, or the EU - or anything else.

You are welcome to quote any verse or passage that implicates Rome in any prophecy, but I've never seen one. IOW - There is NO scriptural evidence of an end-time connection to Rome.

I don't believe John wrote Babylon to define a literal city. Babylon, like Sodom, and Egypt I believe reminds us of what or who they represent which is evil wherever evil influence converges.

rwb · Aug 20, 2022

BobRyan said:
Well Peter claims to be in Babylon - not Egypt, the USA or the EU. And since we know he went to Rome but not literal Babylon -- this part is pretty easy.

1 Pet 5:12 Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it! 13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.

Many scholars will admit that Peter went to Rome - not very many will argue that Peter went to literal Babylon.

It is very likely that John and Peter used the same code name for Rome.

Whatever city Peter was in when he wrote Babylon, I believe is to describe the spiritual condition most likely surrounding the church there. John likens this evil presence to the church at Pergamos "where Satan's seat is". This evil could have been within the church, or the church may have existed in a place where evil abounded all around them. Notably where the martyred Antipas, a faithful saint was slain.

Revelation 2:13 (KJV) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Rev 14:8 "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great"

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