Revelation 12:12

SabbathBlessings said:

I asked you one simple question which would clarify the context of the scripture you presented.

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So do you agree with Jesus'statements that He would return in their lifeitme?

SabbathBlessings said:

Due to time I am only going to address one of the scriptures, but I will try to address more later…


The same story is in Mark and this gives a better idea what Jesus was talking about…

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
The Transfiguration

2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

5 Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6 (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)

7 Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus.

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what “rising from the dead” meant.

11 And they asked him, “Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

12 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected? 13 But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.”

This is what Jesus was talking about, they saw a taste of what is to come. Moses represent those who died and will be resurrected and Elijah represents those who will be alive at the time of the Second Coming of Jesus and those in Christ will meet Him in the air. Revelation 1:7

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Unfortunately, that is another eisegesis, assuming that the transfiguration is the same as what Jesus was talking about. It is one of the desperate acrobatic efforts of Futurism to make their case that Jesus didn't mean what He said.

Here's the rebuttal:

—You will notice that Jesus told Caiaphas that he will see Him coming on the clouds (Matthew 26:64) which was way after the Transfiguration.

—Stephen also saw Jesus way after the Transfiguration..."But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”" Acts 7:55-56

—In Matthew 24 the disciples asked what will be the sign of His Coming...As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3). This, again, was way after the Transfiguration. Why would they ask if it already happened?

—The Olivet Discourse of Mark 13 shows which specific disciples Jesus said will see or witness these things....And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately (Mark 13:3). Then verse 5 goes...and Jesus began to say to them, “See that no one leads YOU astray." verse 5. The "you" does not include people of today, but the those disciples that were asking him. This was all after the Transfiguration.

—Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and THEY will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30). Obviously, the "THEY" were people who were not there during the transfiguration. The "appearing" or "Revelation" was still shortly coming in their future.

We must be careful not to read into the Transfiguration passage our preconceived ideas and presuppositions.

—Matthew 16:27-28 was about the Judgment...For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. So, the judgment was to happen before some of them would die

—While Matthew 16:27-28 was about the Judgment, the Transfiguration of Matthew 17 was about the Resurrection...“Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.” (Matthew 17:9)

Gensys said:

Unfortunately, that is another eisegesis, assuming that the transfiguration is the same as what Jesus was talking about. It is one of the desperate acrobatic efforts of Futurism to make their case that Jesus didn't mean what He said.

Here's the rebuttal:

—You will notice that Jesus told Caiaphas that he will see Him coming on the clouds (Matthew 26:64) which was way after the Transfiguration.

—Stephen also saw Jesus way after the Transfiguration..."But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”" Acts 7:55-56

—In Matthew 24 the disciples asked what will be the sign of His Coming...As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3). This, again, was way after the Transfiguration. Why would they ask if it already happened?

—The Olivet Discourse of Mark 13 shows which specific disciples Jesus said will see or witness these things....And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately (Mark 13:3). Then verse 5 goes...and Jesus began to say to them, “See that no one leads YOU astray." verse 5. The "you" does not include people of today, but the those disciples that were asking him. This was all after the Transfiguration.

—Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and THEY will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30). Obviously, the "THEY" were people who were not there during the transfiguration. The "appearing" or "Revelation" was still shortly coming in their future.

We must be careful not to read into the Transfiguration passage our preconceived ideas and presuppositions.

—Matthew 16:27-28 was about the Judgment...For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. So, the judgment was to happen before some of them would die

—While Matthew 16:27-28 was about the Judgment, the Transfiguration of Matthew 17 was about the Resurrection...“Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.” (Matthew 17:9)

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I take the historicist approach.

I don’t see how Matthew 26:64 supports your view that Jesus came in the past, I agree this was after the Transfiguration, but Jesus Second Coming is in the future as all the promises of His Second Coming have not happened yet.

Gensys said:

In Matthew 24 the disciples asked what will be the sign of His Coming...As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3). This, again, was way after the Transfiguration. Why would they ask if it already happened?

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They were asking for the future. I’m sorry you don’t see this, the end of age has not happened!

Gensys said:

—Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and THEY will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30). Obviously, the "THEY" were people who were not there during the transfiguration. The "appearing" or "Revelation" was still shortly coming in their future.

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I believe the “THEY” thats being referred to is in the very scripture you’re quoting from “and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn”. This is future of what is to come.


All of the scriptures you have quoted is for the future. The transfiguration was a taste of what is to come but the end has not come.

I see a lot of scriptures being taken out of context, too many really to address. If you want to believe Jesus came in the past, thats your choice, its not what I believe based on the promises of scriptures. When Jesus comes its not going to be a secret, all eyes will see Him.

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

If the Second Coming has happened, there would be no more sin and all you have to do is look around to see that sure is not the case.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree and I think we are getting away from the OP.

Signing out for the night take care.

SabbathBlessings said:

I take the historicist approach.

I don’t see how Matthew 26:64 supports your view that Jesus came in the past, I agree this was after the Transfiguration, but Jesus Second Coming is in the future as all the promises of His Second Coming have not happened yet.

They were asking for the future. I’m sorry you don’t see this, the end of age has not happened!





I believe the “THEY” thats being referred to is in the very scripture you’re quoting from “and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn”. This is future of what is to come.


All of the scriptures you have quoted is for the future. The transfiguration was a taste of what is to come but the end has not come.

I see a lot of scriptures being taken out of context, too many really to address. If you want to believe Jesus came in the past, thats your choice, its not what I believe based on the promises of scriptures. When Jesus comes its not going to be a secret, all eyes will see Him.

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

If the Second Coming has happened, there would be no more sin and all you have to do is look around to see that sure is not the case.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree and I think we are getting away from the OP.

Signing out for the night take care.

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I too, was a Historicist. I just learned to approach scriptures Exegetically. For example...

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.

Clearly, the people who pierced him were around at the time of the Parousia...which is not 2,000 years later.

Another example...

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken"

If that's literal then the judgment of Edom was literal...

All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree. —Isaiah 34:4

Why aren't the skies rolled up like a scroll today since that already happened?

There were many false prophets in those days so the warning was given...“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it."

If Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see Him coming in the clouds then here are your options:

a. Jesus lied
b. Jesus was mistaken
c. Caiaphas did see Jesus coming on the clouds

but the common misconception here is to think that Jesus cannot come in in the Spirit of Vengeance...

For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. —Luke 21:22

That's the Olivet Discourse of Luke. Notice that it says that when it happened, it fulfilled ALL that was written. It does not say "except for the coming of Christ". All meant All.

Sweet Visions

Gensys said:

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.

Clearly, the people who pierced him were around at the time of the Parousia...which is not 2,000 years later.

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The Second Coming is all future, which is fact, so this verse indicates the people who did not believe Jesus was the Messiah and was part of His crucifixion will be raised to see Jesus coming in all of His Glory.

Gensys said:

Another example...

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken"

If that's literal then the judgment of Edom was literal...

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Matthew 24:29- 31This is when Jesus Comes! Jesus judges the whole world

2 Corinthian 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

At the time of His coming our fate will be sealed based on the decisions we make today, this applies to all people of all times. Revelation 22:11-12

Gensys said:

All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree. —Isaiah 34:4

Why aren't the skies rolled up like a scroll today since that already happened?

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You answered your own question because its in the future

Gensys said:

If Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see Him coming in the clouds then here are your options:

a. Jesus lied
b. Jesus was mistaken
c. Caiaphas did see Jesus coming on the clouds

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The 4th and correct answer is when Jesus comes Caiaphas will see Him on the clouds like we are told all eyes will see Him. Revelation 1:7

Gensys said:

but the common misconception here is to think that Jesus cannot come in in the Spirit of Vengeance...

For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. —Luke 21:22

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I guess we have a different version of God. God is a God of love and He loved us so much He gave up His only son to save us from sin when we repent and turn to Him in obedience through love and faith. For those who sin willfully Hebrews 10:26-30 God does not have a choice to destroy sin and sinners so we can live the life that God intended for His children without sin, without sorrow, without death or pain. Right now the world is full of death, pain, lawlessness, destruction and God promises the devil will not be able to deceive anyone ever again after He comes. I believe in the promises of the scripture so we will have to agree to disagree and that Jesus already came.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Isaiah 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Gensys said:

For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. —Luke 21:22

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All will be fulfilled what is written in the scriptures, most of the scriptures have been fulfilled, but not everything like waiting for the return of Jesus Christ who those in Him will meet Him in the air and will always be with Him forever and everyone else will be destroyed, no more sin.

We should get back to the topic and I'll probably will not be responding to future posts, but I wish you the best in seeking His Word. God bless

Leaviathan said:

Lots of long winded responses lol, so much for "in a nutshell"

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In a nutshell, haha, the devil's time was short because the victory of Christ was at hand during the time of John.

SabbathBlessings said:

The Second Coming is all future, which is fact, so this verse indicates the people who did not believe Jesus was the Messiah and was part of His crucifixion will be raised to see Jesus coming in all of His Glory.



Matthew 24:29- 31This is when Jesus Comes! Jesus judges the whole world

2 Corinthian 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

At the time of His coming our fate will be sealed based on the decisions we make today, this applies to all people of all times. Revelation 22:11-12

You answered your own question because its in the future




The 4th and correct answer is when Jesus comes Caiaphas will see Him on the clouds like we are told all eyes will see Him. Revelation 1:7




I guess we have a different version of God. God is a God of love and He loved us so much He gave up His only son to save us from sin when we repent and turn to Him in obedience through love and faith. For those who sin willfully Hebrews 10:26-30 God does not have a choice to destroy sin and sinners so we can live the life that God intended for His children without sin, without sorrow, without death or pain. Right now the world is full of death, pain, lawlessness, destruction and God promises the devil will not be able to deceive anyone ever again after He comes. I believe in the promises of the scripture so we will have to agree to disagree and that Jesus already came.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Isaiah 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


All will be fulfilled what is written in the scriptures, most of the scriptures have been fulfilled, but not everything like waiting for the return of Jesus Christ who those in Him will meet Him in the air and will always be with Him forever and everyone else will be destroyed, no more sin.

We should get back to the topic and I'll probably will not be responding to future posts, but I wish you the best in seeking His Word. God bless

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I know it's easy sometimes to overlook, even dismiss the things that our Lord had said during His time. But let me quote it, and it should also shed light to the OP.

Now is the judgment of this world; Now will the ruler of this world be cast out. —John 12:31

Obviously, not my words, but His. And let's keep in mind that He is not saying that in 2022 and beyond. He said it during His ministry. Then was the judgment. Then was when the ruler of this world was being cast out.

And so, his time was short.

Gensys said:

I know it's easy sometimes to overlook, even dismiss the things that our Lord had said during His time. But let me quote it, and it should also shed light to the OP.

Now is the judgment of this world; Now will the ruler of this world be cast out. —John 12:31

Obviously, not my words, but His. And let's keep in mind that He is not saying that in 2022 and beyond. He said it during His ministry. Then was the judgment. Then was when the ruler of this world was being cast out.

And so, his time was short.

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Are you familiar with bible prophecy?

Just an example:

Jesus would be spat on and struck:

Isaiah 50:6 I gave My back to those who struck Me,
And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard;
I did not hide My face from shame and spitting.

Fulfilled:

Matthew 26:67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands,

The scriptures are filled with prophecies….many fulfilled but not all and the Second Coming of Jesus is not one of those just yet, but He said lawlessness would abound Matthew 24:12 so we are drawing nearer.

Tale care.

SabbathBlessings said:

Are you familiar with bible prophecy?

Just an example:

Jesus would be spat on and struck:

Isaiah 50:6 I gave My back to those who struck Me,
And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard;
I did not hide My face from shame and spitting.

Fulfilled:

Matthew 26:67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands,

The scriptures are filled with prophecies….many fulfilled but not all and the Second Coming of Jesus is not one of those just yet, but He said lawlessness would abound Matthew 24:12 so we are drawing nearer.

Tale care.

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Got it. So, unless you touch His side and the holes in His hands you will not believe. Sounds like a familiar character, no? I don't know where you gather, but over here when two or three gather He is always there. But you're still waiting. I get it.

Now, do you know what false prophecies are? They are prevalent in Futurist and Historicist camps. I'm sure you're aware of a few of them. Jesus, however, is not a false prophet, and all His prophecies He fulfilled.

Gensys said:

Got it. So, unless you touch His side and the holes in His hands you will not believe. Sounds like a familiar character, no? I don't know where you gather, but over here when two or three gather He is always there. But you're still waiting. I get it.

Now, do you know what false prophecies are? They are prevalent in Futurist and Historicist camps. I'm sure you're aware of a few of them. Jesus, however, is not a false prophet, and all His prophecies He fulfilled.

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Is there sin in the world? Is there sorrow and tears? Jesus has not come yet and the world we live in right now, is not the New Heaven and New Earth Jesus promises His children. Jesus keeps His promises and I can’t wait to see Him in the clouds with all of His Glory!

Take care.

Leaviathan said:

To the best of everyone's knowledge, what is the meaning of "He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

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Perhaps the fury of knowing his time is short comes from knowing that with the advent of the birth of Christ recorded in vss. 12:1-5 his power to hold the nations in bondage to fear of death will soon be defeated by the cross and resurrection when this man-child (Jesus Christ) grows up to show Himself to be the Son of God by giving His life a ransom for many and will turn many people from the nations from darkness and death to His Light and eternal life.

The Righterzpen said:

Well we could ask the question "short in comparison to what"?

Is this talking the judgement of Satan? The "judgement of this world" as it relates to those who Jesus atoned for their sin? Is it talking about the end of time when the cosmos is recreated? Does the point of time of the commencement of the writing of Scripture play into this question?

In order to answer that, we'd have to figure out it's context in relation to the passage in Revelation.

Now in Revelation 12; the passage is talking about a woman who gives birth to a man child who atones for sin. So thus we know this "Satan's time is short" is connected to the life of Christ.

The Woman of Revelation 12?

Now who is this woman? She's in the "wilderness" "a time, times and 1/2 time".

We know the line to the Messiah started with Abraham who lived 2000 years before Jesus was born. The penning of the compilation of Scripture began with Moses; which was 500 years later.

Moses to Jesus is 1.5 thousand years.
Jesus to now is 2000 years.
That's 3.5 thousand years humanity has had the written revelation of Scripture.
Now if "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day"; is that what the 3.5; "time, times and 1/2 time" means?

Those whom Scripture came to are "the woman". The "church" in the wilderness. (Luke uses the term "church" (translated congregation" in the Old Testament) "in the wilderness" to describe the people wandering around Sini from the Exodus.
Acts of the Apostles 7:38

The New Testament was penned by the apostles, which has become what "the church" now deems as completion of the canon of Scripture. (OT and NT together).

So "the dragon" has been persecuting the body of believers for 3500 years now. It "fits" contextually and "fits" historically.

The Atonement:

Another thing this passage mentions is the atonement. (They overcome by the blood of the lamb.)

Scripture says all judgement is given to the Son because he is "the son of man" (John 5:27) Thus the atonement would at least be the commencement of that judgement; although it's final act (the "sentencing stage" as we might call it) doesn't happen until the current cosmos is recreated. (Which obviously hasn't happened yet.) The commencement of the judgement upon this world started with the atonement. It's conclusion is announced at the end of time.

"Short" in comparison to what?

Dispensational eschatology believes the world is only 6,000 years old. But if you were to take all the ages of the patriarchs and line them up end to end (except in places where Scripture is specific that X is the literal son of Y) you'd get a cosmos that's a little over 13,000. years old at our current point in history.

So if you are looking at the totality of history. The resurrection was only 2000 years ago, at the point where 11,000 years had already passed. One could argue that's "short" in comparison to the life of the cosmos.

Yet is this talking about the destruction of the cosmos or the dominion over creation being taken from Satan?

Contextually, this seems to be speaking; from the point Satan is cast out of (and barred from reentering) heaven. When that happened, the atonement had commenced. We know when exactly in history this has happened because John 12:31 tells us. Jesus makes this statement just before he leaves Jerusalem on his way to Bethany on the Tuesday evening just before the crucifixion (which Jesus was crucified on that Friday).

One of the things that happens to Satan, is that he's chained in the bottomless pit. Does that happen at the point he's cast out of heaven; (commencement of the atonement: i.e. "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth") or does that happen at the resurrection? Or even Pentecost? I've gone through several passages in Revelation and have a hard time pinpointing where exactly in history is Satan chained in the bottomless pit?

From the best of what I've been able to deduce; we know he's chained in the bottomless pit at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ. (Revelation 20:1-3)

Well, when did the millennial reign start?

The end of Ephesians 1 tells us that ALL dominion and power were given to Christ at the resurrection; despite the fact that He doesn't sit on His own throne to proclaim sentence until the end of time.

Pentecost comes and the proclamation of the gospel with sealing of redemption upon believers commences as a demonstration of the dominion of Christ over what Satan once had dominion over. (Because he'd stolen it from Adam; who like like Esau gave up his birthright for a bowl of porridge; Adam gave his up for a piece of fruit!) "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ". (Revelation 11:15)

So contextually, at the point Satan's dominion over the "kingdoms" that those whom Christ atoned for, dwell in on this earth; have those believers been "translated out of the kingdom of Satan, into the Kingdom of God" (Colossians 1:13)

The "time short" appears to be from the point Satan is cast out of heaven to the commencement of the millennial reign. Or in other words "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth", and the sabbath prior to the resurrection.

Time, Times and 1/2 time?

Which shall we "circle back" here to the 3.5 measure of time question?

If time concludes at the end of the 3.5 thousand years of humanity having written Scripture? That would mean that likely we are the last generation.

We know that Satan is loosed at the end of the millennium to "deceive the nations once again" and at least at this point, it appears that politically there is some attempt to construct a technocratic communistic system of surveillance state that resembles the beast system in Revelation 13.

Now will "the great reset" actually get to complete material world manifestation?

Based on other parts of the Scripture; that does not appear to be the case. The global human population is too large and there's too many of us "littl'l people" for that measure of global control to be effective. (Thus why part of the agenda is to kill off a bunch of people.) (Agenda 2030). Yet 2033 is the 2000th year post resurrection of Christ.

Will that year play a significant role in human history?

(I don't know; we'll have to wait and see.)

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If Satan's fury comes from knowing the birth of Christ and his inability to destroy Christ at His birth, means that his days are numbered before Christ defeats Satan by His cross and resurrection. That is what I believe is how Satan was bound. Not bound in a literal sense but bound that he can no longer hold the nations in fear of bondage to death. Because that bondage was broken by Christ's cross and resurrection.

By His cross Christ tastes (experienced) death for every man. Not every man without exception, but every man without distinction. IOW both Jew and Gentile of faith alike.

Hebrews 2:9 (KJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

By experiencing death for the faithful, whether Jew or Gentile, His death destroyed the devil who had power to hold them in bondage to death, and delivered them from fear of death that they are no longer in bondage to it.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

This gives new understanding to Satan's short time, and the fury that comes because of it. The time would be especially short if it began with the anointing of Christ at the beginning of His earthy ministry. For it was then that Christ began to cast out demons and heal and give life to all who came to Him.

That would mean the thousand years symbolizing TIME began with the first advent of Christ and will not end until the seventh trumpet begins to sound, and time shall be no more. All that will be left that must come to pass in this age will be Satan's "little season". I find no reason to believe his little season will be any more than gathering together those on earth in unbelief (Gog & Magog) to be destroyed by the fire of God's wrath that will come down from heaven after every believer has been caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Really enjoyed your reasoning here, we have much in common regarding time of the end and the great reset.

BeliefBite said:

Not for sure on the meaning of this particular statement, but we can use Revelation to interpret Revelation here. Multiple times in Revelation, John tells us that the time is short for Jesus to return.

Therefore, if we assume that this "time is short" is a reference to the same shart period of time elsewhere in the book, then there are two possibilities. 1) Preterism is true, and this is about something that happened in the first century, or 2) The "time is short" should be understood to include the whole church age since Jesus rose from death.

If we want to argue that the "short" period of time lasts for 1000 years, then obviously this isn't a literal interpretation. Those are just my thoughts

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Or perhaps understanding the time that is short is the proclamation of the Gospel being sent unto all the nations of the earth. That was soon to be because the time for salvation of all who believe throughout the nations is now "at hand".

rwb said:

If Satan's fury comes from knowing the birth of Christ and his inability to destroy Christ at His birth, means that his days are numbered before Christ defeats Satan by His cross and resurrection. That is what I believe is how Satan was bound. Not bound in a literal sense but bound that he can no longer hold the nations in fear of bondage to death. Because that bondage was broken by Christ's cross and resurrection.

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You make an interesting point here.

We know Satan fell before Adam did, and I have this theory that Satan's fall was a reaction to the creation of Adam; Adam being the first human to appear as created in the image of God.

Now did Satan understand at the time that the creation of man would ultimately lead to the redemption of the cosmos? Maybe not until God told Eve that her seed would crush the serpent's head? Obviously Satan is not omniscient; although he is quite observant.

Now Scripture tells us that Lucifer was "the covering cherub", he was "beautiful", "honored" of the glory of his position as the "covering cherub". Which raises the question of: well what was Lucifer covering? We know "darkness was upon the face of the deep" from the point of material creation of the cosmos. So was Lucifer the "covering cherub" over the "face of the deep" to protect "middle earth" (to borrow a term from Lord of the Rings = meaning the material created realm) and since Lucifer was endowed with such presence (preeminent place of importance); was pride in how he perceived the creation of "inferior image bearer of God" what precipitated his fall?

(I don't know, but it is an interesting hypothesis!)

And thus "be chained in the bottomless pit" being what Lucifer was suppose to protect the created realm from; (obviously an indicator of his coming judgement for disobeying God) thus "the face of the deep" is like the precursor of the Lake of Fire?

(Again, I don't know the answer to any of these questions but it makes for interesting pondering.)

Now why did creation need a "covering cherub" from "the face of the deep"? That question may pertain to the other question of what is the origin of evil?

I have a theory to that too. "To every action is an equal and opposite reaction". Was "evil" the "opposite reaction" to God's action of creating a material world? (Again I don't know the answer to this; it's just a theory.) And thus "darkness" being the opposite of God's character is what results.

Now keep in mind that it's not the opposite of God, because "evil" (or "darkness") is not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal or having no beginning and no end. It's not the opposite of God; but only the opposite reaction to what God did. And was this the "knowledge of good and evil" that God possessed? (Again, I don't know the answer to that either. It's just a theory that seems to "make sense" in accordance to what we understand about how the universe operates. (But of course we don't understand everything about how the universe operates either!)

Also we understand that "evil" needs an acting agent in order to be manifest. It's the tool of the will of a creature to "commit evil". It possesses no acting power of it's own. Such as in a gun has never jumped up out of someone's hand, or off a table and run out and killed anyone. There has to be an intentional willful creature behind the action.

Which brings us to some additional ponderings of what "free will" meant before the fall.

Obviously nothing God creates possesses His ability. Only in the incarnation does God's ability (or maybe more "plan" or "intention" come into material fruition.

Some food for thought in the very least!

rwb said:

By His cross Christ tastes (experienced) death for every man. Not every man without exception, but every man without distinction. IOW both Jew and Gentile of faith alike.

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Yes! This is exactly what the verse means "He is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world". 1 John 2:2

It's like saying Trump is the buyer of all stoves in America. That doesn't mean Trump bought all the stoves in America; just that what ever stove was purchased in America, Trump was the one who bought them. Same idea; different example.

rwb said:

By experiencing death for the faithful, whether Jew or Gentile, His death destroyed the devil who had power to hold them in bondage to death, and delivered them from fear of death that they are no longer in bondage to it.

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Yes, I understand what you're saying here; and fundamentally I agree.

I get a little stuck though on death as it relates to the wrath of God. Ultimately God is the one all creatures answer too (including Satan) So I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around the verse that talks about the "had the power of death, that is the devil..." (Hebrews 2:14) I haven't really dug through that verse so I'm not sure what it means.

Unless it has some connection to "the covering cherub" being swallowed up by the "darkness" he was suppose to guard against? (I don't know.) But maybe Lucifer knew that and that is why he is that much more accountable for his sin of pride as per being outside of the redemption plan. Jesus took on the nature of man (not angels) whom Adam and Eve were created in the image of Christ.

It presents a lot of interesting paradoxes.

rwb said:

This gives new understanding to Satan's short time, and the fury that comes because of it. The time would be especially short if it began with the anointing of Christ at the beginning of His earthy ministry. For it was then that Christ began to cast out demons and heal and give life to all who came to Him.

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This is an interesting thought too!

I've been kicking around some other stuff in my head about Jesus being the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. At Jesus's baptism, the Father and Spirit announce the presence of God. "This is My Son; hear him!"

Rosh Hashanah / Yom Kippur were proclamation of the law followed by the announcement of the presence of God. John the Baptist preaches repentance. Jesus preaches the gospel.

Was Jesus actually baptized on Yom Kippur? It's entirely plausible; the time table fits!

Do we have here, the conclusion of the fulfillment of the law? The leaders of Israel accused Jesus of many things like breaking the sabbath. And Jesus never stated that he didn't "break" (their understanding) of the sabbath. He's also accused of "eating with publicans and sinners". Which I think is a reference to Jews who weren't 100% in keeping with dietary regulations (one foot in Judaism and the other in Rome) and gentiles who obviously did not keep Jewish dietary regulations. Besides obviously Jesus did things that made him ceremonially unclean. Proving that he had authority over the law in that in touching dead bodies, he raised them.

And here he is; the fulfillment of the prophets which is the declaration of the gospel.

All of this jives with your point about Jesus casting out demons. (Was there anyone in the OT that we hear who "cast out demons"? There aren't any that come to my mind at the moment.)

Also the 3.5 "time short" / 3.5 years of preaching. We see another parallel here. The 1290, 1260, 1335 and 70 weeks do have correlations specific to Jesus's ministry.

70 weeks from the death of John the Baptist to Pentecost.
1335 from the first proclamation of John the Baptist to Pentecost.
1260 from the baptism of Christ to the Friday before the crucifixion.
1290 from the first proclamation of John the Baptist to the Friday before the crucifixion.

Also though we have (on the other end); from the announcement of the angel to John's father; to the birth of Christ, to Herod tryin to kill Jesus.

There's a lot of correlations in these numbers to both the birth and death of Christ. Which could also answer the "time is short" to the 3.5 years. There's a lot of parallels in the Bible and sometimes it's really hard to tell what fits where.

rwb said:

That would mean the thousand years symbolizing TIME began with the first advent of Christ and will not end until the seventh trumpet begins to sound, and time shall be no more. All that will be left that must come to pass in this age will be Satan's "little season". I find no reason to believe his little season will be any more than gathering together those on earth in unbelief (Gog & Magog) to be destroyed by the fire of God's wrath that will come down from heaven after every believer has been caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

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Irony here though is the term "thousand years" in Revelation is actually in the plural. It's either "duel thousand" (meaning 2000) or multiple thousands. I don't understand the constructs of the Greek well enough to know which one it is; but "thousand years" is plural.

And I agree here too; obviously time ends at the 7th trump.

It gets a little "foggy" here because the final resurrection and what we call "the rapture" is "one event". Although it appears to be an event that takes place outside of time so we don't really have any way of "measuring" the sequence from the point that we've surpassed the "last day".

That's an interesting Bible study too if you want to go dive down the phrase "last day". (Not "last days" but "last DAY" (singular). Clearly, Judgement Day is on the heels of "the last day".

rwb said:

Really enjoyed your reasoning here, we have much in common regarding time of the end and the great reset.

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Yeah, there's a lot that can be said here to "Israel" / "church" looking for a political messiah. Will we see a political figure dubbed "messiah" by Israel as a supposed fulfillment of prophecy. They already labeled Trump as "the modern Cyrus". So thus I suppose we can speculate as to who we think their messiah will be! (Or even who they may have been hoping their messiah was. Think Kushner's relation to Kabbalah... ????)

I believe there was a similar dynamic with Judas back in the 1st century. Scripture names him as "the son of perdition". Which there's a lot of political parallels here.

It gets kind of scary when you start making comparisons!

A lot of interesting angles to contemplate though!

The Righterzpen said:

We know Satan fell before Adam did, and I have this theory that Satan's fall was a reaction to the creation of Adam; Adam being the first human to appear as created in the image of God.

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I can't absolutely say when Satan was created, and I believe God created him to be exactly what he is. This because he was more subtil (cunning (usually in a bad sense):—crafty, prudent) than any other creature the LORD God had made. And for this reason, I believe Satan from the beginning is a murderer, and liar. We find proof of this created attribute in the garden when Satan tells the woman ye shall not die.

The Righterzpen said:

I get a little stuck though on death as it relates to the wrath of God. Ultimately God is the one all creatures answer too (including Satan) So I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around the verse that talks about the "had the power of death, that is the devil..." (Hebrews 2:14) I haven't really dug through that verse so I'm not sure what it means.

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Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Genesis 3:4 (KJV) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Righterzpen said:

Now Scripture tells us that Lucifer was "the covering cherub", he was "beautiful", "honored" of the glory of his position as the "covering cherub".

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God told Ezekiel to speak a lamentation to the king of Tyrus, a man, referring to him as "the anointed cherub that covereth", "in Eden the garden of God". Exactly how this passage should be interpreted, I believe we can say with certainty that Satan was not the covering cherub.

Ezekiel 28:12 (KJV) Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Ezekiel 28:13-15 (KJV) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Neither is Lucifer a reference to Satan, but is spoken in a proverb against the king of Babylon.

Isaiah 14:4 (KJV) That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isaiah 14:12-17 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

I think John Calvin gives an appropriate interpretation of this passage.

"12. How art thou fallen from heaven! Isaiah proceeds with the discourse which he had formerly begun as personating the dead, and concludes that the tyrant differs in no respect from other men, though his object was to lead men to believe that he was some god. He employs an elegant metaphor, by comparing him to Lucifer, and calls him the Son of the Dawn; 1 and that on account of his splendor and brightness with which he shone above others. The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance; for the context plainly shows that these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians. But when passages of Scripture are taken up at random, and no attention is paid to the context, we need not wonder that mistakes of this kind frequently arise. Yet it was an instance of very gross ignorance, to imagine that Lucifer was the king of devils, and that the Prophet gave him this name. But as these inventions have no probability whatever, let us pass by them as useless fables.

Casting the lot upon the nations, or weakening the nations. 2 Translators have mistaken the meaning of this clause, by rendering the participle הולש (holesh) passively, Thou art become weak, for its signification is active. But as the verb from which it is derived signifies to cast a lot, and as the preposition על, (gnal,) upon, is here added, it is best to take it in this meaning, that, as the ruler and disposer of all countries, he directed them by lot, or held them as his own possessions. And yet I do not reject the other meaning, that he weakened the nations"

The Righterzpen said:

Also we understand that "evil" needs an acting agent in order to be manifest. It's the tool of the will of a creature to "commit evil". It possesses no acting power of it's own. Such as in a gun has never jumped up out of someone's hand, or off a table and run out and killed anyone. There has to be an intentional willful creature behind the action.

Which brings us to some additional ponderings of what "free will" meant before the fall.

Obviously nothing God creates possesses His ability. Only in the incarnation does God's ability (or maybe more "plan" or "intention" come into material fruition.

Some food for thought in the very least!

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I agree it is through free will that man commits evil. Now the answer for why I believe the serpent (Satan) was in the beginning created a liar and murderer. It was through this liar and murderer that God would use to show how mankind with total, unfettered autonomy will never submit to another. Not even to the Creator for life everlasting.

This is proven from the creation account in the garden when man, thinking to be as God heeded the voice of the serpent and disobeyed God. Thereby plunging the whole human race into sin and destined to physical death through sin. It is for this reason that mankind became bound through Satan to fear of death, and also since having knowledge of good and evil must submit to Christ by grace through faith to overcome death and have life everlasting.

The Righterzpen said:

I get a little stuck though on death as it relates to the wrath of God. Ultimately God is the one all creatures answer too (including Satan) So I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around the verse that talks about the "had the power of death, that is the devil..." (Hebrews 2:14) I haven't really dug through that verse so I'm not sure what it means.

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I see the passage a bit differently. I don't believe Satan has power of death, but power to hold people in bondage to fear of death.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The Righterzpen said:

Irony here though is the term "thousand years" in Revelation is actually in the plural. It's either "duel thousand" (meaning 2000) or multiple thousands. I don't understand the constructs of the Greek well enough to know which one it is; but "thousand years" is plural.

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In this we agree! Trying to force ONE in front of thousand years to fit millennialism is why there is such misunderstanding of the thousand years. It's simply a way of speaking of TIME that begins with the first advent of Christ, and will be finished when the seventh trumpet begins to sound.

The Righterzpen said:

It gets a little "foggy" here because the final resurrection and what we call "the rapture" is "one event". Although it appears to be an event that takes place outside of time so we don't really have any way of "measuring" the sequence from the point that we've surpassed the "last day".

That's an interesting Bible study too if you want to go dive down the phrase "last day". (Not "last days" but "last DAY" (singular). Clearly, Judgement Day is on the heels of "the last day".

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Again, I agree. It is an interesting Bible study and would be helpful if "last day" study were required for every believer. LOL

Leaviathan said:

To the best of everyone's knowledge, what is the meaning of "He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

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I read it just as it is stated...the devil knows his demise is soon...because the end is soon.

Leaviathan said:

To the best of everyone's knowledge, what is the meaning of "He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

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It means just that. his time is up and he gets violent. Naturally God stops this at The Lord Christs' return. Except the Two Witnesses go through a physical death.
(While the rest of the world had suffered a spiritual one. Specifically, a 3rd of the world population is comprised of Christian. The only group with something to lose.)

Its not long after that ( 1k years of The Lords Day) he ( Satan ) is destroyed in the lake of fire.
What many overlook, is the fact Christ shortened Satan's reign for The Elects sake, or they would not even be saved. Read Revelation 9. Christ shortened the time from the years of Daniel, to Five Months. This is repeated two to three times in one or two forms, for emphasis so it would not be missed. Sad how many miss it today. If you were to factor in the midst of the week Satan has to operate, this shortens his time considerably. Thus why he'd be so enraged at the end of this time. He cant be that way during the start and throughout otherwise his deception and cover would be blown. But for the last three and half days, he will start to become aggressive. As explained in Daniel.

Matthew 24:22-24
King James Version

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[ The no flesh saved, is in regards to this deception and their salvation. Not in regards to a physical death ].

So to recap: After the Five Months transpire, the last three and half days of it, when The Two Witnesses lay dead in the open arena their bodies regain life and ascends up towards the heavens with them. Then Christ returns immediately for The Lords Day. Satan is locked away for that time, and at the tail end is blotted out in The Lake of Fire.

Again, Satan would be here for only five months, then at Christs return at the Last Trump locked away for 1k years, at the end of which has what The Bible describes a "short season or space of time" to deceive yet again the world population. Then he and they, are destroyed.

I'll note for you where the Five months are taught with brackets :
Note when you, mention Locusts, in and of itself is a measure of time. The life Cycle of a Locust is typically five months.

Rev 9:3 [locusts]
Rev 9:5 [five months]
Rev 9:7 [locusts]
Rev 9:10 [five months].
Rev 9:11 [Satan's names given]
Rev 9:12 [First Beast taught - one worldism],
Rev 9:13-14 [Second Beast - Satan as Messiah]

Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails:
for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.


Luke 10:18-20
King James Version

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

So there will be Christian's of The Elect, who do know this. And sadly, the rest of the Christian population that will fall into apostasy. As Christ forewarned. Paul even mentions this in detail in 2 Thessalians 2 and 1 Thessalians 5 kjv.

I take it quite literally. The devil is filled with wrath because he has just been cast out of heaven and he knows that is the beginning of the end -- and it is going to be hard for the inhabitants of the earth because he has been cast down to them.