Revelation 20 Bible Study:

Spiritual Jew

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But Revelation 11:8 doesn’t say Babylon, it says Sodom and Egypt. What scriptures are you using that show this substitution is valid?
Revelation 11:8 refers to "the great city". That is how mystery Babylon is described as well.

Revelation 16:19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: “With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.

It also very possible that it’s a figurative description of the destruction of Jerusalem 66-70 AD.
I disagree. What is your understanding of the two witnesses in that case? It says "Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city" for 3 1/2 days and they are then resurrected and caught up? What would that represent in relation to what happened around 70 AD? I believe it's a figurative representation of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the catching up of the church at Christ's return in the future.
 
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BobRyan

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What is your understanding of the two witnesses in that case? It says "Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city" for 3 1/2 days and they are then resurrected and caught up?

Rev 11:
8 And their dead bodies will lie on the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 Those from the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who live on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who live on the earth. 11 And after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

That pertains to the French revolution where the Bible was banned from France. Sodom was a city of immorality, and Egypt was where the Pharaoh said "who is God that I should serve him?" -- atheism.

A great summation of the immorality and atheism that swept through France for those ten years.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I agree that sola scriptura testing is the key - no matter what the doctrine.. to see if it aligns with all texts on a given doctrine/teaching.
Agreed.

1. Some parts of Revelation are chronological (such as within one of the 7's) and some are recapitulation as we see in the 7 churches, trumpets, seals and in Rev 20 summary followed by expanded detail.
Agreed.

2. Some parts of Revelation are literal - "God, Satan, armies of men, armies of heaven, saints, commandments of God, lake of fire, New Jerusalem, walls..." -- and others are figurative/symbols standing for something else "Lamb, Dragon, beasts, false prophet, 2 witnesses,
Agree, except I would say the new Jerusalem is not a literal city since it is described as "the bride, the wife of the Lamb". How could a literal city be "the bride, the wife of the Lamb" (Revelation 21:9)? Seems like a figurative description of the church to me. I also doubt that the lake of fire is a literal lake of fire or that it's talking about literal walls. But, anyway, we don't need to go into that in detail here

3. I did not see "The following scripture" but the question should be "based on the teaching of scripture will immortals and mortal humans live on Earth during the 1000 years or will it be desolate as Jer 4:23-26 states?"
Jeremiah 4:23-26 says absolutely nothing about the earth being desolate for a long period of time. That is quite a stretch. If your doctrine hinges on that passage then I don't find it to be a strong doctrine.

A number of years between two events is never "symbolic" in scripture. Not one example of such a thing - not even in all of Ps 50.
The word "thousand" is used symbolically several times in scripture, so I don't find this to be a strong argument at all.

A lot of symbolism there - inviting too much speculation in that section for a definitive answer.

Rev 9:
Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key to the shaft of the abyss was given to him. 2 He opened the shaft of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the shaft like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened from the smoke of the shaft. 3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a person. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death will flee from them!

7 The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like human faces. 8 They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle. 10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt people for five months. 11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.​

Some say that refers to the Ottoman Empire ending in the 19th century.
I didn't go back to read what the point was regarding Revelation 9, but my own view is that Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for the devil, Satan. Who else is the king of the fallen angels, which are figuratively represented as locusts in this passage? I believe this passage is describing the loosing of Satan and his angels from the bottomless pit, so I see it as being parallel to Revelation 20:7-8.

The two witnesses in Rev 11 are symbolic of OT and NT - the text is talking about the 1260 years of dark ages when the Bible was banned and then the Reformation that brought the Bible back into the hands of the public.
I disagree, but at least you don't see them as being two individuals, so I give you credit for that.

The Rev 20:5 resurrection is the same one mentioned in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4:13-18.
It can't be. That contradicts too much scripture which I have described many times on this forum. Jesus clearly taught in John 5:28-29 that there is a single coming event during which the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked will occur. You contradict that by having two separate events when the resurrection of the dead will occur. Also, Jesus said that the wicked will be judged on the same "last day" that the righteous are resurrected. That also contradicts your doctrine.

The two resurrections in John 5 are both physical.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

Just as Lazarus heard Christ's voice and then came forward. (John 11)
No, that can't be. John 5:24-25 is speaking of an ongoing reality. What happened with Lazarus has nothing to do with that. That passage is talking about people going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ just like Paul wrote about here:

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Can you see here how Paul described what happens when we're saved? We go from being spiritually "dead in your transgressions and sins" to "alive with Christ". That is what Jesus was talking about when He said in John 5:24 "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" and in verse 25 "a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live". He was clearly talking about something that was already happening back then and would continue to happen an on ongoing basis. What happened with Lazarus was not something that has happened on an ongoing basis.

Satan and or his demons. But Matt 26 does not say that Satan is bound. In Job 1 and 2 -- Satan complains that God has restrained him, placed limits on him.
Matthew 12:26-29 describes the way in which Satan is bound. He is powerless against Christ's power which we all have in us because of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

Matt 25 does not use the term "mortals/humans left alive on Earth".
Jer 4:13-16 does - and it tells us 'no humans' are on Earth at that time.
Again, Jeremiah 4 makes no mention of a long period of time that the earth is desolate. You read that into the text.

More later if someone is interested. But I don't want this to turn into an unreasonably long post.
I wasn't really expecting you to comment on the entire post, but it's up to you what you want to comment on. I would say this was enough.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Rev 11:
8 And their dead bodies will lie on the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 Those from the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who live on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who live on the earth. 11 And after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

That pertains to the French revolution where the Bible was banned from France. Sodom was a city of immorality, and Egypt was where the Pharaoh said "who is God that I should serve him?" -- atheism.

A great summation of the immorality and atheism that swept through France for those ten years.
You're saying "the great city" refers to France? I disagree. I can't make any sense out of that interpretation. Who or what were the two witnesses then? What does it mean when it talks about their dead bodies being in the street of the great city for 3 1/2 days and then being resurrected and told to "Come up here"?
 
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BobRyan

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You're saying "the great city" refers to France? I disagree. I can't make any sense out of that interpretation. Who or what were the two witnesses then?

The two witnesses are the word of God. Today we call it the OT and NT.


Rev 11

3 ""And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.''

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.



Zech 4

2 He said to me, "What do you see?" And I said, "I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it;
3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side."
4 Then I said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, "What are these, my lord?"
5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
6 Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.


11 Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?"
12 And I answered the second time and said to him, "What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?"
13 So he answered me, saying, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."


What does it mean when it talks about their dead bodies being in the street of the great city for 3 1/2 days and then being resurrected and told to "Come up here"?

France banned the Bible , declared God is dead and had nothing but atheism for 3.5 years.


God’s witnesses – testify under sackcloth and ashes – in persecution for 1260 years in the dark ages.
Then in France that witness falls silent for 3.5 years. Nov 24 1793 – spring 1797

It was in 1793 that the decrees which abolished the Christian religion and set aside the Bible passed the French Assembly. Three years and a half later a resolution rescinding these decrees, thus granting toleration to the Scriptures, was adopted by the same body.

During the French Revolution - for the first time in history a Christian nation turned its back on the Bible - and its government denied and banned the Bible. 3.5 years -- 3.5 days in Revelation 11.
But then the printing press invention restored the Bible beyond all efforts to ban it from mankind
 
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BobRyan

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Jeremiah 4:23-26 says absolutely nothing about the earth being desolate for a long period of time. That is quite a stretch. If your doctrine hinges on that passage then I don't find it to be a strong doctrine.
.

It does not say "short time". It is more than enough time for cultivated fruitful land to become "a wilderness"

Jer 4:23-27
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.
27 For this is what the Lord says:
“The whole land shall be a desolation,


Only corpses left - and no one to bury them

Jer 25
30 ...
‘The Lord will roar from on high
And raise His voice from His holy dwelling;
He will roar forcefully against His fold.
He will shout like those who tread the grapes,
Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A clamor has come to the end of the earth,
Because the Lord has a controversy with the nations.
He is entering into judgment with humanity;
As for the wicked, He has turned them over to the sword,’ declares the Lord.”
32 This is what the Lord of armies says:
“Behold, evil is going out
From nation to nation,
And a great storm is being stirred up
From the remotest parts of the earth.
33 “Those put to death by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

=================

That is the language of long centuries of time
 
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Erik Nelson

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The "camp (G3925, Parembole)" of the holy saints of God matches the language of Genesis 32 (Jacob names the camp of God Mahanaim) and perhaps more obviously Exodus 15 (the camp of Israel on the way to, and in, the Wilderness)
 
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Erik Nelson

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If the great city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified, is Jerusalem and if the beloved city in Revelation 20:9 is Jerusalem.
God loved Jerusalem in the time of David, but hated it in the time of Jesus

same place, but different times
 
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grafted branch

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Revelation 11:8 refers to "the great city". That is how mystery Babylon is described as well.

Revelation 16:19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: “With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.
The word mystery is used to describe something being revealed that was hidden in the Old Testament. Babylon being an ungodly one world government or global city was not hidden in the Old Testament.

Mystery Babylon has to be something that is revealed; like performing the same animal sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem that were once holy and acceptable are become as pagan sacrifices (an abomination) after the cross.
What is your understanding of the two witnesses in that case?
I think the two witnesses have many things in common with John the Baptist/Elias. There are just too many similarities to ignore, here’s the list I have so far …


Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias (in some kind of way he represents 2 people, himself and Elijah)

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Matthew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison, Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ, and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded.

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party.


It says "Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city" for 3 1/2 days and they are then resurrected and caught up? What would that represent in relation to what happened around 70 AD?
I think the two witnesses represent the law and the prophets, the resurrection would be the Matthew 27:52-53 event and in Revelation 11:19 the ark of His testament was seen in the temple in heaven which would relate to the law. I don’t see the two witnesses be related to the 70AD event.
 
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grafted branch

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God loved Jerusalem in the time of David, but hated it in the time of Jesus

same place, but different times
I completely agree, would you say this was a mystery hidden in the Old Testament?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The word mystery is used to describe something being revealed that was hidden in the Old Testament. Babylon being an ungodly one world government or global city was not hidden in the Old Testament.

Mystery Babylon has to be something that is revealed; like performing the same animal sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem that were once holy and acceptable are become as pagan sacrifices (an abomination) after the cross.

I think the two witnesses have many things in common with John the Baptist/Elias. There are just too many similarities to ignore, here’s the list I have so far …


Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias (in some kind of way he represents 2 people, himself and Elijah)

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Matthew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison, Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ, and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded.

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party.

I think the two witnesses represent the law and the prophets, the resurrection would be the Matthew 27:52-53 event and in Revelation 11:19 the ark of His testament was seen in the temple in heaven which would relate to the law. I don’t see the two witnesses be related to the 70AD event.
But, you were saying you see Revelation 11:8 as relating to the 70 AD event, weren't you? You're saying you think the great city is Jerusalem. I can't make any sense of what you're saying.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It does not say "short time". It is more than enough time for cultivated fruitful land to become "a wilderness"

Jer 4:23-27
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.
27 For this is what the Lord says:
“The whole land shall be a desolation,


Only corpses left - and no one to bury them

Jer 25
30 ...
‘The Lord will roar from on high
And raise His voice from His holy dwelling;
He will roar forcefully against His fold.
He will shout like those who tread the grapes,
Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A clamor has come to the end of the earth,
Because the Lord has a controversy with the nations.
He is entering into judgment with humanity;
As for the wicked, He has turned them over to the sword,’ declares the Lord.”
32 This is what the Lord of armies says:
“Behold, evil is going out
From nation to nation,
And a great storm is being stirred up
From the remotest parts of the earth.
33 “Those put to death by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

=================

That is the language of long centuries of time
Your interpretation of this passage simply does not line up with many New Testament scriptures, as I already showed. But, that doesn't seem to be of any concern to you, I guess.

I've pointed out how Jesus said the righteous will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40) and the wicked will be judged on the last day (John 12:48) and I get no response. I guess that isn't surprising, though, since you have the wicked being judged 1000+ years after the righteous are resurrected. Does it not concern you that your interpretation of Jeremiah 4:23-27 doesn't line up with verses like John 6:40 and John 12:48 and others like John 5:28-29 which show the righteous and wicked being resurrected at the same general time rather than 1000+ years apart?

Your view also doesn't line up with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which has the new heavens and new earth being ushered in as the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming. If the new heavens and new earth are not actually ushered in until 1000+ years after His return, then that makes nonsense out of 2 Peter 3:10-13.
 
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grafted branch

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But, you were saying you see Revelation 11:8 as relating to the 70 AD event, weren't you? You're saying you think the great city is Jerusalem. I can't make any sense of what you're saying.
Well, I think the reference to Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8 could possibly be referring to the fire that comes down from heaven in Revelation 20:9.

We know in Revelation 11:8 that when the two witnesses are killed also the great city is spiritually being called Sodom and Egypt.

I think the great city remains as spiritually Sodom and Egypt for some time period until it is destroyed.
 
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BobRyan

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I've pointed out how Jesus said the righteous will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40) and the wicked will be judged on the last day (John 12:48) and I get no response.

A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day - 2 Peter 3.

In second Peter 3 and in John 12 the "last day" and the "day of the Lord" are all in reference to that same 1000 year period that begins with the appearing of Christ and ends with the judgment of the wicked in the lake of fire.

. Does it not concern you that your interpretation of Jeremiah 4:23-27 doesn't line up with verses like John 6:40 and John 12:48 and others like John 5:28-29 which show the righteous and wicked being resurrected at the same general time rather than 1000+ years apart?

It lines up perfectly -- because at the time Christ appears in 1 Thess 4:13-18, and in Matt 24:29-31 and in Rev 19 -- the judgment that determines / separates the wicked from the saved already completed.

Daniel 7 points to a judgment that takes place in heaven out of the books of record and when that judgment completes then Christ appears.

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened
.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom....

But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

=====================

At the end of Rev 22 Jesus says that when He comes "my REWARD is with Me" -- saints already identified and their reward determined.

He does not setup a centuries long judgment process when he shows up.

=====================

Jesus speaks of all mankind being judged and shows how the decisions are made - but the "day" is the 2 Peter 3 example of "a thousand years is as a day". One with the righteous taken to heaven, and at the end - the wicked standing at the great white throne, judged and cast into the lake of fire.
 
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BobRyan

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Your view also doesn't line up with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which has the new heavens and new earth being ushered in as the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming. If the new heavens and new earth are not actually ushered in until 1000+ years after His return, then that makes nonsense out of 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Rev 19, 20, 21 say that is exactly what happens and Peter resolves it by pointing out that the day of the Lord is a 1000 year period of time.

At Christ's appearing the saints are taken to heaven and the wicked destroyed - 1000 years later at the end of that symbolic "day" in 2 Peter 3 terms - the wicked are resurrected, judged and cast into the lake of fire. This is the real second coming where Jesus comes to Earth to reign.
 
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DavidPT

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Rev 19, 20, 21 say that is exactly what happens and Peter resolves it by pointing out that the day of the Lord is a 1000 year period of time.

At Christ's appearing the saints are taken to heaven and the wicked destroyed - 1000 years later at the end of that symbolic "day" in 2 Peter 3 terms - the wicked are resurrected, judged and cast into the lake of fire. This is the real second coming where Jesus comes to Earth to reign.


Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


If these already died in a lost state, that obviously means there is no more hope for them at that point. Why then would satan need to deceive someone again after they already died lost, then raised from the dead? In order for them to be standing at the great white throne judgment after they have been devoured by fire from God out of heaven, obviously means they need to be raised to life again, bodily, since the bodies they initially had, these were obviously devoured by fire from God out of heaven.

What you are teaching basically is this.


All of the lost on earth die as of Revelation 19:21, thus no mortal survivors remaining on the earth. Then these meant in Revelation 19:21 rise from the dead at the conclusion of the thousand years, thus are the ones meant in Revelation 20:8. Except now satan has to deceive resurrected ppl of all things, something that is not supported anywhere else in the Bible. And once he deceives them, then devoured by fire from God out of heaven, the bodies they were raised in no longer exist anymore. Now they need to be raised again with different bodies in order to fulfill what is recorded in Revelation 20:11-15.

You're teaching 2 bodily resurrections of the lost. One at the beginning of satan's little season, one at the end of it, simply based on your misinterpretation of some of Jeremiah 4, where it is obvious that you are ignoring who that chapter is involving since you don't seem to consider the verses leading up to the parts you are forming your doctrine from, nor the parts in any of the chapters that follow ch 4.

Almost forgot, you are also teaching that the rest of the dead die 3 deaths not two deaths.

1st death.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

2nd death.
Revelation 20:9--- and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


3rd death.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Wonder why it calls this the 2nd death rather than the 3rd death? Probably because Revelation 20:9 does not involve those recorded in Revelation 19:21, nor anyone that was already physically dead prior to this. That way it agrees with the text and these in Revelation 20:9 experience only 2 deaths not 3 deaths.
 
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BobRyan

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The "Holy Jerusalem" in Rev 21 and the "Camp of the saints"/"The Beloved City" in Rev 20 is the same city.

It is the New Jerusalem - Christ and all the saints inside the city and all the lost on the outside of that city.

Rev 20 does not say that the saints call fire down from heaven.

START of the 1000 year millennium

Rev 19:
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20:
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.​

So that is the "First resurrection" -- the resurrection of the saints who are then taken to heaven as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and in Matt 24:29-31

AFTER the 1000 years
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.​

AT the start of the 1000 years
Rev 20:5...This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

The first resurrection:
Saints that are raised at Christ's appearing in Rev 19
The Second Resurrection: The lost raised when the 1000 years end.


AFTER the 1000 years


Short 4 vs summary

Rev 20:
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.​

9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever​


Expanded detail on that same summary statement.

The wicked are raised to life
They are surrounding the holy city
Then they are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
What vs 9 describes as all the lost surrounding the city and then devoured by fire that comes down form God --- is further described in vs 11-15 as being the wicked dead coming back to life, the great white throne judgment and then the second death - lake of fire.



Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

If these already died in a lost state, that obviously means there is no more hope for them at that point.

Agreed - they are being resurrected for judgment. But in the text God gives Satan the time to
1. Go out and deceive the nations - newly resurrected.
2. Prepare, organize and gather them for battle.
3. Execute the plan of attack and have them surround the Holy city.


Rev 20:
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.​

9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever​

Why then would satan need to deceive someone again after they already died lost, then raised from the dead?

Satan is given complete control of lost humanity of all ages. The family and loved ones of the lost that are saved - are inside the holy city. They witness the life of their loved one who is then following satan and choosing war against the camp of the saints. This is very important for them to see - because they are about to witness their lost family and loved ones - get cast alive into the lake of fire.


In order for them to be standing at the great white throne judgment after they have been devoured by fire from God out of heaven, obviously means they need to be raised to life again, bodily, since the bodies they initially had, these were obviously devoured by fire from God out of heaven.

As noted in my quote above - they are not an army - devoured by fire, then resurrected and judged, then cast into fire again. That is not what happens.

Rather - as I show - the short summary of the vent given in vs 7-10 - is then further explained by more details added in 11 through the end of the chapter.

Just like Gen 1 is not one creation of mankind followed by Gen 2 as "another mankind created" but rather the first statement and then followed by "more details" for that first statement in Gen 2. So that is mankind created ONCE but that creation is described TWICE giving added details for it - in Gen 2.

What you are teaching basically is this.

All of the lost on earth die as of Revelation 19:21, thus no mortal survivors remaining on the earth. Then these meant in Revelation 19:21 rise from the dead at the conclusion of the thousand years, thus are the ones meant in Revelation 20:8. Except now satan has to deceive resurrected ppl of all things, something that is not supported anywhere else in the Bible. And once he deceives them, then devoured by fire from God out of heaven, the bodies they were raised in no longer exist anymore. Now they need to be raised again with different bodies in order to fulfill what is recorded in Revelation 20:11-15.​

You're teaching 2 bodily resurrections of the lost. One at the beginning of satan's little season, one at the end of it,

No at all. I am teaching one bodily resurrection of the lost which marks the end of the 1000 years. And this is followed by two "descriptions" (one short summary , followed by more expanded detail) in Rev 20 for how the wicked are burned. (the second death).


Almost forgot, you are also teaching that the rest of the dead die 3 deaths not two deaths.

1st death.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

2nd death.
Revelation 20:9--- and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

3rd death.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Wonder why it calls this the 2nd death rather than the 3rd death?

Because this is not 3 deaths -- it is one death described twice in the chapter just like the creation of man is described twice in Gen 1-2. Once in Gen 1 and then again in Gen 2.
 
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BobRyan

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simply based on your misinterpretation of some of Jeremiah 4, where it is obvious that you are ignoring who that chapter is involving since you don't seem to consider the verses leading up to the parts you are forming your doctrine from, nor the parts in any of the chapters that follow ch 4.

As we see in my post below - you are mistaken not just in Jeremiah 4 but in 25 and in 2Thess 1 and in Rev 19 - all of which show that no humans are left alive that are not saved believers. So then only those raptured to heaven are alive of all humans God has created - at that point.

The fact that the OT uses apocalyptic inserts in places like Jer 4 and Ezek 28 (in the case of Satan) and in Isaiah 14 (in the case of Satan) is well documented.

All the lost slain at the appearing of Christ - leaving only a desolate Earth (since saints are also raptured to heaven then).

2 Thess 1:
4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints

Rev 19:
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


Jer 4:23-26 NASB (latest version)

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


Jer 25:
30 “Therefore you shall prophesy against them all these words, and you shall say to them,

‘The Lord will roar from on high
And raise His voice from His holy dwelling;
He will roar forcefully against His fold.
He will shout like those who tread the grapes,
Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A clamor has come to the end of the earth,
Because the Lord has a controversy with the nations.
He is entering into judgment with humanity;
As for the wicked, He has turned them over to the sword,’ declares the Lord.”

32 This is what the Lord of armies says:
“Behold, evil is going out
From nation to nation,
And a great storm is being stirred up
From the remotest parts of the earth.

33 “Those put to death by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.​
 
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Spiritual Jew

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A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day - 2 Peter 3.

In second Peter 3 and in John 12 the "last day" and the "day of the Lord" are all in reference to that same 1000 year period that begins with the appearing of Christ and ends with the judgment of the wicked in the lake of fire.
I completely disagree. There is no indication whatsoever that "the last day" refers to a long period of time. It says believers will be resurrected on the last day. Are believers going to be resurrected over a 1000 year period of time? No. So, that proves that what you're saying can't possibly be true. Saying that the last day is a 1000 year time period is like saying "the last days" refer to the last thousands of years.

It lines up perfectly -- because at the time Christ appears in 1 Thess 4:13-18, and in Matt 24:29-31 and in Rev 19 -- the judgment that determines / separates the wicked from the saved already completed.
Their judgment isn't just determined at that time, it happens at that time as passages like Matthew 25:31-46 indicate. So, I just completely disagree with your view.
 
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