the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

Super Kal said:

Wrong.
The flood was God's wrath on the world, yet Noah never left the earth.
The plagues was God's wrath against the Pharaoh, yet Moses and the Jews never left the earth.
Fire from heaven was God's wrath against Sodom and Gomorrah, yet Lot never left the earth.

Noah, Moses, the Jews, and Lot were supernaturally protected and remained on the earth while God poured out His wrath on the wicked.

just because scripture says we are not appointed wrath does not automatically mean we will not be present on the earth to see it fall upon the wicked. those mentioned above were on the earth to see the wrath of God poured out onto the wicked...

and if God was willing to keep them on the earth during that time, don't think for a second that God wont do the same to us.

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I do believe the promise is to the Church and not Noah. And the seventh trumpet says otherwise to your assertions.

You will note that Revelation 11 has the wrath at the same time that the saints are caught up to meet Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which is how they escape the wrath. Your scheme has them face the wrath.

Jerryhuerta said:

Show me where charts are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness!

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...if you are historist, charts are not useful, because the historist view is unworkable.

Jerryhuerta said:

I do believe it is scripture that does that and not charts.

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The bible does not put all of the events leading up to Jesus's Second Coming in one place.

The timing and relationship of the events have to be assembled. A chart is nothing more that a visible diagram representing all of the events in that fashion.

Since it appears that you don't have chart making skills, list the events in timeline order leading up to Jesus's Second Coming.

What is event immediately precedes Jesus's Second Coming? You should be about to figure that out from Ezekiel 39:17-20, Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:18-19, Psalms 2:1-3.

Super Kal said:

~ he believes that the vaccine is the Mark of the Beast. he takes this stance based on his belief that the use of luciferase in the vaccine is what will trigger the mark once the use 5G is implemented.

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If the reference is the Covid Vaccine being the Mark of the Beast (MOTB) that is subject to debate. I have thought about it, but there is too much variables. We wouldn't be seeing mandates being scrapped if that was the case, but on flip side of coin, some places still require person to be "up to date" on vaccinations. So I think this is subject to debate.

BobRyan said:

Rev 13 makes no reference to vaccines or luciferase.

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On the contrary, Rev 13 does describe what could be a mandated vaccination program. The side effects in Rev 16.2 have to be from something that a person has come into contact with? Is what Rev 16.2 describing some kind of Vaccine-Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (VAIDS)? Maybe something comparable along those lines? maybe it is some kind of reaction to some chemical or other agent that everyone reacts to?

Sheila Davis said:

Vaccine the mark of the beast - no. The mark of the beast will be initiated for identification purposes to be able to buy, sell, trade, to basically live in the new form of governmental control, after the rise of the beast and the antichrist. Most likely be mandatory for everybody, made into law. Good reasons will be given, for instance no more currency, will lower crime, scan and go for medical purposes, financial purposes, employment purposes, and purchase purposes etc.

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You do realise that what you just said above in your post does relate to the Vaccine mandates that was happening around the world last year. Proof of vaccination in order to enter bars, cafes, places of employment. What I have notice in the past 12 months especially with these vaccine mandates is a person won't be able to practically function in society without being vaccinated.

I still don't see how people, who know the MOTB prophecy, fail to see the strong parallels between vaccine mandates and the MOTB as described in Revelation in the verses concerned? The similarities of what we seen in past 12 months with these vaccine mandates and the MOTB prophecy is just incredible . I don't know anything else that can even remotely come close.

alertandawake said:

If the reference is the Covid Vaccine being the Mark of the Beast (MOTB) that is subject to debate. I have thought about it, but there is too much variables. We wouldn't be seeing mandates being scrapped if that was the case, but on flip side of coin, some places still require person to be "up to date" on vaccinations. So I think this is subject to debate.



On the contrary, Rev 13 does describe what could be a mandated vaccination program. The side effects in Rev 16.2 have to be from something that a person has come into contact with? Is what Rev 16.2 describing some kind of Vaccine-Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (VAIDS)? Maybe something comparable along those lines? maybe it is some kind of reaction to some chemical or other agent that everyone reacts to?



You do realise that what you just said above in your post does relate to the Vaccine mandates that was happening around the world last year. Proof of vaccination in order to enter bars, cafes, places of employment. What I have notice in the past 12 months especially with these vaccine mandates is a person won't be able to practically function in society without being vaccinated.

I still don't see how people, who know the MOTB prophecy, fail to see the strong parallels between vaccine mandates and the MOTB as described in Revelation in the verses concerned? The similarities of what we seen in past 12 months with these vaccine mandates and the MOTB prophecy is just incredible . I don't know anything else that can even remotely come close.

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I realize what I just said - and the vaccine is not a mandate - President Biden issued a mandate for federal employees only - over half of the American people did not get vaccinated. I don't know what's going on in other countries but I haven't heard that other countries made it a mandate to be vaccinated.
Just like in the past 100 years you can't get into a school, unless you have certain vaccinations. same principle applies I don't want to be around someone who has a virus that can kill you within a week or two especially if have health conditions or elderly and many times even the younger. So business owners required proof of vaccination or keep your person out. That is not the mark of the beast you can buy sell or trade without being vaccinated. When the mark of the beast comes there will be a system set up far different than any system that exists and everybody will be required to have it man woman and child no exceptions. Those that refuse will be jailed or killed are both no exceptions.
And I will add this in case you missed it or maybe I didn't say it - we are moving closer and closer and closer to the mark of the beast but the Antichrist has not been REVEALED yet and until he does we don't have to fear the mark of the beast.

alertandawake said:

Rev 13 does describe what could be a mandated vaccination program. The side effects in Rev 16.2 have to be from something that a person has come into contact with? Is what Rev 16.2 describing some kind of Vaccine-Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (VAIDS)? Maybe something comparable along those lines? maybe it is some kind of reaction to some chemical or other agent that everyone reacts to?
.

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You are mixing Rev 16 (the plagues - caused by God) with Rev 13 (the mark of the beast caused by Satan). Rev 13 has nothing in it about a vaccine.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who live on it worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of the sky to the earth in the presence of people. 14 And he deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause all who do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 and he decrees that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

666 is not the name of any vaccine we know of.
It is also not the number of a name of a vaccine.

I suppose the vaccines could just be a warmup for the real mark of the beast when the Antichrist appears. We did get a real picture of how the government can force people to comply with something that was not proven to be good for them. If the vaccines had really stopped the virus in the beginning, then folks would have taken it without resisting.

We can avoid some confusion here by noting this comment (now on page 1 of this thread --)

BobRyan said:

Helpful rules of structure and order in Bible interpretation when it comes to prophecy --

1. All Bible timelines are contiguous timelines - there are no exceptions to this rule.
2. All apocalyptic timelines us day for a year - when days, weeks, months are used in that symbolic timeline.

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frank sears said:

I suppose the vaccines could just be a warmup for the real mark of the beast when the Antichrist appears. We did get a real picture of how the government can force people to comply with something that was not proven to be good for them. If the vaccines had really stopped the virus in the beginning, then folks would have taken it without resisting.

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This is a good point. We saw an exercise in getting everyone to comply with a mandate for the "good of all" in that case. And we saw some strict measures used. So certain features of it may indeed be borrowed or enhanced to make the real Rev 13 event possible.

I think you all suck

Muckah said:

I think the beast of Rev. 13, 17, and Daniel 7's 4th beast are all different beasts. I'm still keeping all options on the table.

I'm not convinced the biblical anti-Christ is actually a global dictator ruling a one world government. It could be a limited one like a 10/7 alliance of nations and kings that try to take out Israel.

The most confusing beast to me is the Rev. 13 beast. The Rev. 17 beast seems to have something to do with Islam.

Daniel's 10 horned beast might not be the anti-Christ but represent the NWO and globalism under the WEF and UN. Take a look at how the two are structured. The UN also fits the Rev. 13 beast quite well.

The little horn of Daniel 7 with the eye may represent global surveillance and a technocracy - digital everything, bank and health records. Your car will be hooked up to 5G and charged per mile right straight out of your digital bank account.

The Rev 13 and 17 beasts could also be a united - yet divided Middle East of two different Caliphates. Maybe the nations of Psalm 83 or Ez. 38-39. Or the kings of the North and South of Daniel 11.

Neither am I convinced one way another about the Mark. In an Islamic context it would be the zebiba. in a globalist context a chip or something.

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Welcome to the forum, Muckah.

Muckah said:

I think the beast of Rev. 13, 17, and Daniel 7's 4th beast are all different beasts. I'm still keeping all options on the table.

I'm not convinced the biblical anti-Christ is actually a global dictator ruling a one world government. It could be a limited one like a 10/7 alliance of nations and kings that try to take out Israel.

The most confusing beast to me is the Rev. 13 beast. The Rev. 17 beast seems to have something to do with Islam.

Daniel's 10 horned beast might not be the anti-Christ but represent the NWO and globalism under the WEF and UN. Take a look at how the two are structured. The UN also fits the Rev. 13 beast quite well.

The little horn of Daniel 7 with the eye may represent global surveillance and a technocracy - digital everything, bank and health records. Your car will be hooked up to 5G and charged per mile right straight out of your digital bank account.

The Rev 13 and 17 beasts could also be a united - yet divided Middle East of two different Caliphates. Maybe the nations of Psalm 83 or Ez. 38-39. Or the kings of the North and South of Daniel 11.

Neither am I convinced one way another about the Mark. In an Islamic context it would be the zebiba. in a globalist context a chip or something.

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The little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the first beast of Revelation 13 are all the same person but at different stages to his end.

As the little horn he is a leader over ten European kings.

Then as the prince who shall come, in Daniel 9:26-27, he will enter the middle east following the Gog/Magog event, on the premise of being peace keeper to the region.

At that point, the Jews, Israel, will erroneously think he is the messiah. The person will be anointed the king of Israel (but coming in his own name) - that is what makes him the Antichrist.

Three years go by and he goes off the deep end, by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God hood.... revealing himself to be the man of sin of 2Thessalonians2:3-4, and not the messiah after all. The Jews will reject him at that point and turn to Jesus.

Because of his audacious claim, God has the person killed and in disdain for him brings him back to life - the person at that point becomes the beast of Revelation 13. Being brought back to life will be the strong delusion God sends to those who will have believed his initial claim of God-hood - i.e. the lie - in the first place. 2Thessalonians2:11.

As the beast, the person will rule the world for 42 months. The great tribulation will take place during that time. To be ended when Jesus returns at His Second Coming.

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Muckah said:

Even as a futurist I believe the 'prince who shall come' was fulfilled by Jesus. IOW - I don't accept the disp. view of Daniel 9.

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I am a futurist. But a non-dispensationalist. So we don't have to get into disipensationism and its terms.

The 7 years following the soon to take place Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 38-39 in Ezekiel 39:9-10 is the 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

Here is a chart I made for Jews at their countermissionary site, who at present reject Jesus as being the messiah, but believe that they, Israel, will inherit the kingdom of God after the time/times/half time oppression by the little horn in Daniel 7:25-27.

Muckah said:

I have never found one single prophecy showing a European connection in any way. Everything points to Mid-East nations - not Europe.

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In Daniel 8:9, the little horn person comes from one of the territories of Alexander's four breakup kingdoms - heading south and east toward Israel. So he will come from the direction of Europe to Israel.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The prince who shall come is of the people who destroyed the temple and city, the Romans.

Muckah said:

I see no evidence that Israel will believe the man of sin is their Messiah.

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The Jews, Israel, will believe that the prince who shall come is their messiah. Later when he reveals himself to be the man of sin they will no longer believe he is the messiah.

Muckah said:

I'm not sure what you believe otherwise but - he doesn't make any sort of peace treaty with Israel and allow them to rebuild a temple and resume animal sacrifices only to have them cease etc., etc

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The confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is not a peace treaty.

In Deuteronomy 31:9-13, Moses mad a forever requirement that all future leaders of Israel have the law read to nation of Israel from the place of God's choosing. On a 7 year cycle. Thus confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant.

The Jews consider the temple mount the place of God's choosing. But because of the controversy involving the muslims, Moses' requirement has not been done in modern times.

Following Gog/Magog, the muslim presence will no longer be on the temple mount, and Islam a broken religion. The Antichrist, acting out as the Jews thought to be messiah, will have the law read to the nation from the temple mount, beginning the 7 years.

Muckah said:

You try too hard at timelines. He's already off the deep end the moment he declares himself as the Mahdi.

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The Muslim Mahdi = the Antichrist, and the false prophet = the muslim Isa theory is a bust on numerous accounts. One of which there is no biblical counterpart for the dajjal, the muslim Antichrist figure.

In muslim end times view, the Mahdi will be in a do or die battle with the dajjal, when Isa - their version of Jesus - returns and destroys the dajjal. None of those things match up with the real end times prophecies in the bible.

I considered that theory myself over thirteen years ago. But after looking into it, and muslim end times view - it is easily dismissed.

The person who become the Antichrist must be a Jew and his religion initially has to be Judaism. "Christ" language wise means messiah, and "the" messiah functionally is to be the King of Israel. "Christ the King of Israel" Mark 15:32.

Also in John 12:12-15. The King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord.

The Antichrist will be anointed the King of Israel, but comes in his own name. i.e someone that God did not send to be their king.

Muckah said:

Can't say I see any evidence for any of that. What you're describing is way too dispensational for me.

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Dispensationalism has no bearing on that the person will be killed for claiming to have achieved God-hood is in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

That the person is not allowed to remain dead for long is in Isaiah 14:18-20. God will have disdain for the person, for not only having claimed to have achieved God-hood, but in doing so turns against his own people and land of Israel.

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

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Muckah said:

You say you're not a dispensationalist, but you appear to believe the gap theory of Daniel's 70th week so I don't understand.

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A dispensationalist is someone who holds to dispensationalism. Which I don't.

Dispensationalism is a approach to understanding the bible by dividing it into different era's of how God relates to man. Dispensationalism - Wikipedia

The dispensational era's (ages) are commonly considered...
Innocence
Conscience
Human Government
Promise
Law
Grace
Millennial Kingdom

If you want to argue against dispensationalism, be my guest. I do not defend it, because I don't subscribe to it. It just muddies the waters.

There is a gap between the 69th and 70th week as being the time of the gentiles, and the gospel preached to the nations - then the end will come. Matthew 24:14.

Muckah said:

The biblical evidence that Islam is the religion of the beast produces the anti-Christ far outweighs the 'evidence' that he originates from Rome or that he must be a Jew.

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From the Roman empire, not necessarily Rome.

In the end times, that kingdom is the EU.

On my radar is Valdimir Zelensky. Ukraine just got approved by the EU as a canidate with the EU leaders planning on expediting Ukraine to full EU member state status.

Zelensky has burst onto the scene with world acknowledging his political and military leadership. Zelensky is a Jew.'

Putin is likely Gog. Neither Putin, nor Zelensky are certains at this point in time.

Muckah said:

The biblical evidence that Islam is the religion of the beast produces the anti-Christ far outweighs the 'evidence' that he originates from Rome or that he must be a Jew.

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Daniel 11:36 picks up in the end times. And the king in that verse is the beast, who will be claiming to be greater than every God.

"the God of his fathers" in verse 37 is a saying pertinent to Jews.

The God of his fathers is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That phrase originated back in Exodus and Moses's encounter with God, and His presence in the burning bush. As God told Moses who He was, in Exodus 3:6.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

The person will be a Jew. God of his fathers comes from...

Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

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