Easter Origins Pagan?

Is easter pagan

  • yes

    Votes: 13 27.1%
  • no

    Votes: 35 72.9%

  • Total voters
    48

Mockingbird0

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It was a closely guarded secret for thousands of years, known only
to the Jewish scribes and priests, rabbis and spiritual leaders.

The modern-day Rabbinic calendar was not “a closely guarded secret for thousands of years”. Its mathematical part was worked out in the years AD 700 - AD 900, and it is clearly different from the Priestly calendar that Jesus’s disciples would have known. The Herodian-era calendar used true lunations; the modern-day Rabbinic calendar uses average lunations. The Herodian-era calendar may or may not have used a Metonic cycle to regulate the intercalations; it may have handled the intercalations empirically, as the Mishnah and Tosefta suggest, while the modern-day Rabbinic calendar definitely uses a Metonic cycle. The modern-day Rabbinic calendar prevents the first day of Unleavened Bread from falling on Monday, Wednesday, or Friday; the Herodian-era calendar is not known to have enforced any such constraint.

To find Passover day, you use the Hebrew calendar God gave us.
To find easter day, you use a manmade calendar with pagan origins.

There is nothing inherently pagan about the Gregorian lunar calendar, which many of the churches use to set the date of Easter. It uses average lunations, just as the modern-day Rabbinic calendar does. But it is cyclic in the civil calendar, which the modern-day Rabbinic calendar is not. There is nothing inherently pagan about this feature. The Gregorian lunar calendar is just as good an approximation to the Scriptural lunar calendar as the modern-day Rabbinic calendar is.
 
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Mockingbird0

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Both the eggs snd the bunny were part of pagan spring fertility celebrations (the symbolism is pretty obvious) that existed before Christianity. I don’t think it’s debatable that they were incorporated into the Christian holiday.
Have you documentation of these "pagan spring fertility celebrations" that involve eggs or hares? Certainly in England there is no record of such rites.
 
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Sparagmos

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Have you documentation of these "pagan spring fertility celebrations" that involve eggs or hares? Certainly in England there is no record of such rites.
It’s well documented. I’m pretty sure there is documentation right in this thread, have you read the whole thread? Do you think I just made that up?
 
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prodromos

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It’s well documented. I’m pretty sure there is documentation right in this thread, have you read the whole thread? Do you think I just made that up?
Somebody must have. I've not seen any historical documentation quoting any primary or secondary sources. It's just one of those lies that have been repeated enough times that people assume it must be true.
 
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ralliann

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Somebody must have. I've not seen any historical documentation quoting any primary or secondary sources. It's just one of those lies that have been repeated enough times that people assume it must be true.
Actually, Judaism includes an egg on their seder plate. So much for the "pagan" complaints.
 
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Sparagmos

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Where, and by whom?

-CryptoLutheran
This is an old, 10 page long thread. Feel free to read it all to learn more. I already invested time here snd I’m not going to do it again. Obviously the hare and the egg point at fertility and have nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 
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prodromos

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This is an old, 10 page long thread. Feel free to read it all to learn more. I already invested time here snd I’m not going to do it again. Obviously the hare and the egg point at fertility and have nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Your claims were shot down from near the beginning of the thread. No evidence to support your claims was forthcoming anywhere in the thread.
 
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Sparagmos

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Your claims were shot down from near the beginning of the thread. No evidence to support your claims was forthcoming anywhere in the thread.
‘Shot down" as in a counter theory was given?
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is an old, 10 page long thread. Feel free to read it all to learn more. I already invested time here snd I’m not going to do it again. Obviously the hare and the egg point at fertility and have nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Okay, so I just looked through ten pages to see where you provided documentation and sources for what you claimed. The only thing you provided as documentation was a link to a Wikipedia article that says some people speculate that coloring eggs could, possibly, maybe, but we don't actually know predate Christians dying eggs.

Here's what that very Wikipedia page says:

"According to many scholars, the art of wax-resist (batik) egg decoration in Slavic cultures probably dates back to the pre-Christian era. They base this on the widespread nature of the practice, and pre-Christian nature of the symbols used.[3] No ancient examples of intact pysanky exist, as the eggshells of domesticated fowl are fragile, but fragments of colored shells with wax-resist decoration on them were unearthed during the archaeological excavations in Ostrówek, Poland (near the city of Opole), where remnants of a Slavic settlement from the early Piast Era were found.[4]

As in many ancient cultures, many Slavs worshipped a sun god, Dazhboh. The sun was important – it warmed the earth and thus was a source of all life. Eggs decorated with nature symbols became an integral part of spring rituals, serving as benevolent talismans.

In pre-Christian times, Dazhboh was one of the major deities in the Slavic pantheon; birds were the sun god's chosen creations, for they were the only ones who could get near him. Humans could not catch the birds, but they did manage to obtain the eggs the birds laid. Thus, the eggs were magical objects, a source of life. The egg was also honored during rite-of-Spring festivals––it represented the rebirth of the earth. The long, hard winter was over; the earth burst forth and was reborn just as the egg miraculously burst forth with life. The egg therefore, was believed to have special powers.[5]
" - Egg decorating in Slavic culture - Wikipedia

Now read that opening paragraph.

"the art of wax-resistant egg decoration in Slavic cultures probably dates back to the Christian era. They basis this on the widespread nature of the practice, and pre-Christian nature of the symbols used."

Probably and assumption are not the smoking gun that you seem to think it is. And what follows that opening paragraph is certainly an interesting hypothesis--and I'm not going to argue that it's false. But it does not provide evidence that eggs were pagan fertility symbols that Christians just adopted as part of the Paschal Feast.

This entire section of the article offers three citations.

[3] - Kилимник, Степан. Український рік у народних звичаях в історичному освітленні, том. ІІІ, Весняний цикль. Winnipeg, Toronto: Ukrainian Research Institute of Volyn' pp. 189-191

[4] - "Opole: najstarsze polskie "pisanki" znaleziono na opolskim Ostrówku". onet.pl. 31 March 2013.
(this is a link to a Polish website, which is now broken and leads to a 404 error page)

[5] - Manko, Vira. The Ukrainian Folk Pysanka L'viv, Ukraine: Svichado, 2005

As for the broken link to the Polish website, fortunately it can be accessed using the Wayback Machine:
Opole: najstarsze polskie "pisanki" znaleziono na opolskim Ostrówku

And here is that article translated from Polish to English using Google Translate (I don't speak or know Polish, so this is the best that I can do):

"Today, Ostrówek is a place in the center of Opole, where, among others, voivodeship office and amphitheater. The Piast Castle once stood here, the remains of which is the tower known from festival broadcasts, and even earlier the wooden Piast castle. It is from the post-war excavations in the local stronghold that the oldest - as the director of the Museum of Opole Silesia, Urszula Zajączkowska - assured - Polish "Easter eggs" come. - But they are definitely not eggs of bird origin - Urszula Zajączkowska reserved. - They have the shape of almost perfect eggs, slightly disturbed by time, but they were certainly created by a human hand "Pisanki" from Ostrówek in Opole may be even a thousand years old, they come from the period from the end of the 10th to the 13th century, when there was a Piast stronghold in this place. They were excavated at a depth of 3.5 to 5 meters. There are a total of seven of them - three slightly smaller ones made of clay and four, the size of a hen's egg, made of limestone. Some of them are covered with a green-and-yellow pattern with almost perfect stripes or lines, made in the same way that the dishes were decorated. Some of them were decorated with the batik method - like modern Easter eggs. The pattern was made with warm wax applied with a thin stylus, then the egg was dyed with a vegetable dye. - Some of them also have a secret. There are probably some grains inside the eggs because they are rattling - added Zajączkowska. We do not know what they were used for by one of the first inhabitants of Opole. - We can only rely on assumptions - said the director of the Museum of Opole Silesia. - Perhaps they were items used in magic, beliefs or rituals. After all, in many ancient cultures the egg was a symbol of nature awakening to life or fertility. Gypsum and limestone eggs from Opole Ostrówek can be seen at the permanent exhibition of the Museum of Opole Silesia in Opole entitled "Opole - town, city, capital of the region". The Piast stronghold in Ostrówek in Opole was built on the Odra Island in the 10th century. It was a settlement with wooden buildings, surrounded by a wooden and earth embankment. It gave rise to the city of Opole. There was a crew of several dozen warriors in it. It was one of the Piast castles in Silesia, which was built in the 10th century. At the end of the 13th century, a castle was erected in its place, which was pulled down in 1928-31. According to Krzysztof Spychała, Deputy of the Opole Provincial Conservator of Monuments and the Head of the Department of Archaeological Monuments, research in Ostrówek was carried out in the 1930s by German archaeologists, during the construction of the present building of the provincial office; and then in the post-war years, for a total of about 25 years, already by Polish archaeologists. - At that time, wooden structures of residential buildings and thousands of movable archaeological monuments were discovered in this place - said Spychała."

Now, it's not a great translation. But it appears to be saying that colored eggs were discovered dating back to between the 10th and 13th centuries near a castle from the Piast dynasty. This isn't pre-Christian. This is very firmly Christian, as the first Piast duke, Miezko (c.930-990) converted to Christianity, and while Sts. Cyril and Methodius had their mission work among the Slavs much earlier, Latin Christianity is what gained influence in Poland under the Piasts.

I can't speak of the other sources provided, but I find this one interesting because it not only doesn't support a pre-Christian use of colored eggs but rather presents evidence of Christians making colored eggs in medieval Poland.

Piast dynasty - Wikipedia
Poland in the Early Middle Ages - Wikipedia
Mieszko I - Wikipedia

Is there more documentation in this thread that I may have missed?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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prodromos

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Like the fact that the Christian Church employed the egg and the hare in its symbology?
@hedrick mentioned that in post 49, citing Wikipedia which gives it as a German Lutheran tradition dating back to the 15th century
 
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Mockingbird0

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Have you documentation of these "pagan spring fertility celebrations" that involve eggs or hares? Certainly in England there is no record of such rites.

It’s well documented. I’m pretty sure there is documentation right in this thread, have you read the whole thread? Do you think I just made that up?

I have read this entire thread, and found no evidence presented of pagan springtime fertility rites that used hares in any way.

Some of the best documented pagan springtime fertility rites are those of the Romans, though they may not have been held consistently in the spring until after Julius Caesar’s calendar reform.

On the 4th of April were the ludi Matris Magnae, the Games of the Great Mother. This was Cybele (Rhea), genetrix fecunda deorum, “fruitful mother of the gods” (Fasti iv.319) The only offerings to her that Ovid mentions are small coins (Fasti iv.350-352) and a bowl of herbs (Fasti iv.367-372) She rides in a chariot drawn by lions (Fasti iv.215-218). No hares.

On April 12th began the ludi Cereri, the Games of Ceres. Ovid mentions the following offerings to Ceres: spelt (a primitive form of wheat), salt, incense, and sows (Fasti iv.409-414). On April 19th was the Cerialia. Torches were tied to the backs of foxes on this day. (Fasti iv.681-682) Hares are nowhere to be found.

On April 15th was the Fordicidia. Pregnant cows were sacrificed to Tellus (Mother Earth) (Fasti iv.629-640). Again, no hares.

The writer Marcus Terentius Varro mentions the fertility of hares (Rerum Rusticarum 3.12.4) but he nowhere mentions their use as sacrifices to any god, though he mentions the sacrifice of pregnant cows to Tellus (Rerum Rusticarum 2.5.6).

No hares are used in these pagan springtime fertility rites. So I will continue holding to the theory that the Easter Hare is a harmless tale invented in early modern Germany for the amusement of children.
 
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Sparagmos

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I have read this entire thread, and found no evidence presented of pagan springtime fertility rites that used hares in any way.

Some of the best documented pagan springtime fertility rites are those of the Romans, though they may not have been held consistently in the spring until after Julius Caesar’s calendar reform.

On the 4th of April were the ludi Matris Magnae, the Games of the Great Mother. This was Cybele (Rhea), genetrix fecunda deorum, “fruitful mother of the gods” (Fasti iv.319) The only offerings to her that Ovid mentions are small coins (Fasti iv.350-352) and a bowl of herbs (Fasti iv.367-372) She rides in a chariot drawn by lions (Fasti iv.215-218). No hares.

On April 12th began the ludi Cereri, the Games of Ceres. Ovid mentions the following offerings to Ceres: spelt (a primitive form of wheat), salt, incense, and sows (Fasti iv.409-414). On April 19th was the Cerialia. Torches were tied to the backs of foxes on this day. (Fasti iv.681-682) Hares are nowhere to be found.

On April 15th was the Fordicidia. Pregnant cows were sacrificed to Tellus (Mother Earth) (Fasti iv.629-640). Again, no hares.

The writer Marcus Terentius Varro mentions the fertility of hares (Rerum Rusticarum 3.12.4) but he nowhere mentions their use as sacrifices to any god, though he mentions the sacrifice of pregnant cows to Tellus (Rerum Rusticarum 2.5.6).

No hares are used in these pagan springtime fertility rites. So I will continue holding to the theory that the Easter Hare is a harmless tale invented in early modern Germany for the amusement of children.
This is a good overview:

"Into the Woods" series, 43: The Folklore of Rabbits & Hares
 
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Sparagmos

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@hedrick mentioned that in post 49, citing Wikipedia which gives it as a German Lutheran tradition dating back to the 15th century
The egg as a symbol has been used going back further than the 15th century!
 
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