Yes, children were present in household baptisms. Biblical evidence.

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The question is: did the Jews consider people before bar mitzva
as members of the household? As only boys were initiated, I wonder whether they considered women also, not the Household.

That’s an interesting question, but it is also to a certain extent irrelevant, insofar as we don’t actually know how old the Bar Mitzvah tradition is, but we do know that it can be no older than the implementation of the Synagogue system by St. Ezra the Priest and St. Nehemiah the Prophet following the return of the Jews from captivity. Before that time indivdual Jews outside of the Levitical and Priestly tribes generally did not read the Torah, with a few exceptions such as Prophets and Judges; the custom during the First Kingdom was for the King to read a portion of Deuteronomy which restates in a compact manner the Law which is otherwise spread out across Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers, at the Feast of Tabernacles.

However, it is the case that Rabinnical Judaism, unlike Samaritanism, Karaite Judaism and, as far as I am aware, Ethiopian Judaism, is matrilineal (the others being patrilineal), so one would assume based on that that women are very much a part of the household in a Rabbinical Jewish setting, considering that someone is not a Jew at birth unless born to a Jewish mother.

Unfortunately, this is not a panacea against sexist discrimination towards women; recently Netflix ran a documentary series, Unorthodox, about a Chassidic Jewish woman who fled her community because she could not take the abuse any longer.
 
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Major1

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Major1: You and I concur here. From my perspective in reading threads on CF, Adam's imputed guilt is only held by a minority of credobaptists.

Credobaptists will use Duet. 1:39 & Is 7:14-15 primarily to show moral innocence rather than imputed guilt. Then they will use Ezek. 18:20 to show the impossibility of imputed or inherited sin.

I do have a lot of respect for Baptists that to hold to the Second London confession of Faith as it articulates your position on Adam's imputed sin.

Paedobaptists don't give a rip whether or not infants were baptized in the NT. We baptize infants based upon the promises attached to baptism....such as the forgiveness of sins. Baptism doesn't remove original sin, it removes the CURSE of sin that damns.

We must make a distinction between the winning of the forgiveness of sins, and the delivery of the forgiveness of sins. Jesus won the forgiveness of sin on the cross for all mankind. But how is that forgiveness delivered to mankind? Primarily though the word...faith comes by hearing. Because Baptism contains the Word of God, (Triune formula) baptism can deliver Christ to the child who is born guilty, deserving of capital punishment.

You said............
" Baptism doesn't remove original sin, it removes the CURSE of sin that damns."

That is YOUR personal OPINION and has not basis in Bible theology.

The belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is also known as "baptismal regeneration."

What I am saying is that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but I am adamantly rejecting baptism as being required for salvation.

I believe tells us and I believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion, AFTER they come to Christ in Faith.

Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection.

Romans 6:3-4 declares......
“Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”

The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.

NONE of that applies to an INFANT as they do not have the ability to think and know WHY they are being baptized to begin with.
 
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Major1

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Indeed I was baptized as an infant, and I feel greatly blessed for it.

As an INFANT, what did that experience do for you ?

Did you feel differant?
Did you feel forgiven?
Did you feel relieved?

What as an INFANT did you experience?

Did you confess your sin?
Did you know what sin was?
Did you ask Christ to pay for your sin?

You see, the Bible says in Romans 10:10 that.........
“With the heart man believeth unto righteousness: and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

Charles Haddon Spurgeon said.............
"To make a profession, without having a possession, is to be a cloud without rain—a river-bed, choked up with dry stones, but utterly without water".

Source: July 19, 1863Scripture: Romans 10:10 From: Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Volume 9
 
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Infant baptism is not just for the baby, it is for the community to also commit to raising the baby in the Christian way. The godparents who will look after their Christian education and really all of the friends and family to get together and swear like I said that this will be a Christian upbringing. It doesn't end there, we also Confirm the baptism when the child comes to the age of what would have been a bar mitzvah. When the child accepts their confirmation, they are knowingly accepting the baptism they were given as a baby.
 
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Major1

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Infant baptism is not just for the baby, it is for the community to also commit to raising the baby in the Christian way. The godparents who will look after their Christian education and really all of the friends and family to get together and swear like I said that this will be a Christian upbringing. It doesn't end there, we also Confirm the baptism when the child comes to the age of what would have been a bar mitzvah. When the child accepts their confirmation, they are knowingly accepting the baptism they were given as a baby.

Baby DEDICATION is an entirely different position than INFANT BAPTISM.

You can not peal a banana and eat an apple from it!
 
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Baby DEDICATION is an entirely different position than INFANT BAPTISM.

You can not peal a banana and eat an apple from it!
It's baby baptism with the whole community involved. They aren't two separate things. If you've been to a baby baptism, the godparents take vows.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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every Christian should be water baptized by immersion

Oh no, not another “immersion only” conspiracy theorist. Christians don't have be baptized by immersion.

There are six passages in the New Testament in which (1) the word "baptizo" used (2) water is applied to the human body and (3) contextually it cannot be immersion.

To be sure, classical pagan Greek "baptizo" does mean "immersion." This is the way Aristotle and Plato understood the term.

However before the NT was written, a cultural phenomenon called Hellenism had a lasting impact on Judaism and the Jewish people. Hellenism was a synthesis of the Greek language with the native cultures all around the Near East. Israel as not an exception. The LXX was written Greek around 250 B.C. Hellenistic Greek now starts making incursions into the Hebrew and Aramaic languages. Greek words begin to migrate into the Hebrew and Aramaic and take on new meanings.

Before the NT was written, the Jews first took the Hellenistic word “baptism” out of its original Greek context and used it for the practice of general ceremonial hand washing. We have two examples of this in the NT.

  • Luke 11:37-38 Now when He had spoken, a Pharisee asked Him to have lunch with him; and He went in, and reclined at the table. When the Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that Jesus had not first ceremonially washed (ἐβαπτίσθη) before the meal.
  • Mark 7:3-4 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they wash (βαπτίσωνται) themselves.

In Luke 11:38, the Pharisee was astonished that Jesus didn’t ceremonially baptize his hands before dinner. And Jesus certainly didn’t fully immerse himself in water as in taking a bath, but rather the usage of water was just enough to fulfill the Jewish custom such as sprinkling and pouring would suffice.
In Mark, the disciples were criticized for not ceremonially baptizing their hands after buying food at the market. No bath here.

In Luke and Mark, both Jesus and the disciples were criticized for not washing their hands as this new meaning of the word “baptism” allows. We see similar usage of “washing” substituted for “immersion” in Hebrews 9:10.

The Jews changed the word baptizo from “immersion” to “wash ceremonially” and contextually allowed for sprinkling or pouring. In other words, change in meaning occurred at the time of the NT from baptism being some act of submersion to simply any application of water to the human body.

THE BAPTISM OF PAUL (Acts 9): Paul is blinded by Jesus and taken to Damascus. The Lord told Ananias to go the the house of Judas to meet Paul. So he went to the house of Judas. Notice Judas’ house is mentioned twice. Paul hadn’t eaten for three days.

  • Acts 9:18 And immediately something like fish scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight, and he stood up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.

Paul was baptized in a standing position in a house. The "not eating" before his baptism and "eating of food" after his baptism, are the contextual bookends that this all happened in the same location and in short time. Ananias' command is not a call for Paul to get-up-and-go-someplace to be baptized, rather Ananias is ordering a more suitable posture for baptism than reclining in the room where they met.



Furthermore, as Paul retells this story in Acts 22:16 he uses the same language. "STAND UP and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name." Same Greek for for "stand up" in both passages.

So we have two passages of Scripture, talking about the same event (Paul’s baptism), both mentioning the administration of baptism, AND CONTEXTUALLY IT IS NOT IMMERSION. This is the plain reading of the text.

THE USAGE OF TYPE AND ANTITYPE CONCERNING BAPTISM. A “TYPE” is a person, thing or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows an “ANTI-TYPE” of a person, thing or event in the New Testament. In other words, an element found in the Old Testament is seen to prefigure one found in the New Testament. The Antitype is always seen as greater.

The are two examples of type/antitype of Baptizó in the New Testament. In I Peter 3:20-21 the Genesis flood was a type of Baptism. “the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water Corresponding to that (ἀντίτυπον, antitypon), baptism (Baptizó) now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience.

The flood saved eight people without immersing them.

I Corinthians 10.1, 2 is another such passage: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized (Baptizó) unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea."

No immersion here, just dry feet. The Egyptians were immersed but not baptized. The Israelites were baptized but not immersed.

Both of these types are true Christian baptisms because they are quoted in the NT as such. The antitype of the NT is always greater.
 
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Oh no, not another “immersion only” conspiracy theorist. Christians don't have be baptized by immersion.

There are six passages in the New Testament in which (1) the word "baptizo" used (2) water is applied to the human body and (3) contextually it cannot be immersion.

To be sure, classical pagan Greek "baptizo" does mean "immersion." This is the way Aristotle and Plato understood the term.

However before the NT was written, a cultural phenomenon called Hellenism had a lasting impact on Judaism and the Jewish people. Hellenism was a synthesis of the Greek language with the native cultures all around the Near East. Israel as not an exception. The LXX was written Greek around 250 B.C. Hellenistic Greek now starts making incursions into the Hebrew and Aramaic languages. Greek words begin to migrate into the Hebrew and Aramaic and take on new meanings.

Before the NT was written, the Jews first took the Hellenistic word “baptism” out of its original Greek context and used it for the practice of general ceremonial hand washing. We have two examples of this in the NT.

  • Luke 11:37-38 Now when He had spoken, a Pharisee asked Him to have lunch with him; and He went in, and reclined at the table. When the Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that Jesus had not first ceremonially washed (ἐβαπτίσθη) before the meal.
  • Mark 7:3-4 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they wash (βαπτίσωνται) themselves.

In Luke 11:38, the Pharisee was astonished that Jesus didn’t ceremonially baptize his hands before dinner. And Jesus certainly didn’t fully immerse himself in water as in taking a bath, but rather the usage of water was just enough to fulfill the Jewish custom such as sprinkling and pouring would suffice.
In Mark, the disciples were criticized for not ceremonially baptizing their hands after buying food at the market. No bath here.

In Luke and Mark, both Jesus and the disciples were criticized for not washing their hands as this new meaning of the word “baptism” allows. We see similar usage of “washing” substituted for “immersion” in Hebrews 9:10.

The Jews changed the word baptizo from “immersion” to “wash ceremonially” and contextually allowed for sprinkling or pouring. In other words, change in meaning occurred at the time of the NT from baptism being some act of submersion to simply any application of water to the human body.

THE BAPTISM OF PAUL (Acts 9): Paul is blinded by Jesus and taken to Damascus. The Lord told Ananias to go the the house of Judas to meet Paul. So he went to the house of Judas. Notice Judas’ house is mentioned twice. Paul hadn’t eaten for three days.

  • Acts 9:18 And immediately something like fish scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight, and he stood up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.

Paul was baptized in a standing position in a house. The "not eating" before his baptism and "eating of food" after his baptism, are the contextual bookends that this all happened in the same location and in short time. Ananias' command is not a call for Paul to get-up-and-go-someplace to be baptized, rather Ananias is ordering a more suitable posture for baptism than reclining in the room where they met.



Furthermore, as Paul retells this story in Acts 22:16 he uses the same language. "STAND UP and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name." Same Greek for for "stand up" in both passages.

So we have two passages of Scripture, talking about the same event (Paul’s baptism), both mentioning the administration of baptism, AND CONTEXTUALLY IT IS NOT IMMERSION. This is the plain reading of the text.

THE USAGE OF TYPE AND ANTITYPE CONCERNING BAPTISM. A “TYPE” is a person, thing or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows an “ANTI-TYPE” of a person, thing or event in the New Testament. In other words, an element found in the Old Testament is seen to prefigure one found in the New Testament. The Antitype is always seen as greater.

The are two examples of type/antitype of Baptizó in the New Testament. In I Peter 3:20-21 the Genesis flood was a type of Baptism. “the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water Corresponding to that (ἀντίτυπον, antitypon), baptism (Baptizó) now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience.

The flood saved eight people without immersing them.

I Corinthians 10.1, 2 is another such passage: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized (Baptizó) unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea."

No immersion here, just dry feet. The Egyptians were immersed but not baptized. The Israelites were baptized but not immersed.

Both of these types are true Christian baptisms because they are quoted in the NT as such. The antitype of the NT is always greater.
Way to long for me to read!

According to Strong’s Concordance, the word βαπτίζω, ‘baptizo,’ is translated as . . .

“baptize” 76 times,
“wash” twice,
“baptist” once, and
“baptized once.

It means to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk). 2 to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe.

So, we clearly see that the word means to immerse. Therefore, baptism by immersion is obviously biblical.
 
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It's baby baptism with the whole community involved. They aren't two separate things. If you've been to a baby baptism, the godparents take vows.

I am a Southern Baptist by choice and we never baptize babies because it it NOT BIBLICAL in any way.
 
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Infant baptism is not just for the baby, it is for the community to also commit to raising the baby in the Christian way. The godparents who will look after their Christian education and really all of the friends and family to get together and swear like I said that this will be a Christian upbringing. It doesn't end there, we also Confirm the baptism when the child comes to the age of what would have been a bar mitzvah. When the child accepts their confirmation, they are knowingly accepting the baptism they were given as a baby.

Baby baptism or infant baptism is not biblical. Jesus didn’t teach or practice it and none of his disciples did either. Nowhere in Scriptures will you find any instructions concerning baby baptism.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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but I am adamantly rejecting baptism as being required for salvation.

Baptism is necessary to salvation because the Word of God requires it. For whatever Jesus has instituted and commanded it is to be done. Obedience to Jesus’ commands is always obligatory.

However, baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation because the way God instituted it. Certain persons by definition are excluded from being baptized. The unborn. If were baptism were absolutely necessary for salvation, all unborn who die before birth would be excluded from salvation. So baptism is not essential unto salvation meaning that is absolutely indispensable.

But while God binds us to observe being baptism, God does not bind Himself to baptism as he does other redemptive events

WHAT IS ESSENTIAL AND ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE FOR SALVATION IS THAT CHIRST SHOULD DIE for us. THIS GOD HAS BOUND HIMSELF TO. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission and can be no remission of sins. Salvation is impossible without Christ’s sacrifice.

So God has not bound himself to baptism in the same way he binds himself to the Atonement.

God binds us to be baptized but it is not absolute where baptism is impossible to be administered. The unborn are a prime example of the impossibility of the administration of baptism.

But wherever baptism is offered, the Christian is baptized. This is NT teaching.

The necessity of baptism is not absolute but ordinary. The ordinary way the Christian life is lived is by being baptized. All Christians are to baptized with no exceptions. This is the normal pattern. Baptism is not optional for the believer, and there is no such thing in the NT as an unbaptized believer.

True faith always results in baptism.

However, outright rejection of baptism is the rejection of Jesus' command in Matthew 28 and Mark 16, thus no true faith can really be present.

We should always publicly teach that Baptism is necessary for salvation except in cases where Baptism is impossible to be administered.

A WARNING:
No Christian should ever teach baptism is not necessary or one doesn't have to be baptized especially to new converts or those of weak faith. Jesus warns us: "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." This means immediate death is nothing compared to judgment day.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Way to long for me to read!

Then just read how Paul was baptized. Acts 9 is never commented on by credos. Absolutely devastating to "immersion only" theorists.

THE BAPTISM OF PAUL (Acts 9): Paul is blinded by Jesus and taken to Damascus. The Lord told Ananias to go the the house of Judas to meet Paul. So he went to the house of Judas. Notice Judas’ house is mentioned twice. Paul hadn’t eaten for three days.

Acts 9:18 And immediately something like fish scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight, and he stood up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.


Paul was baptized in a standing position in a house. The "not eating" before his baptism and "eating of food" after his baptism, are the contextual bookends that this all happened in the same location and in short time. Ananias' command is not a call for Paul to get-up-and-go-someplace to be baptized, rather Ananias is ordering a more suitable posture for baptism than reclining in the room where they met.



Furthermore, as Paul retells this story in Acts 22:16 he uses the same language. "STAND UP and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name." Same Greek for for "stand up" in both passages.

So we have two passages of Scripture, talking about the same event (Paul’s baptism), both mentioning the administration of baptism, AND CONTEXTUALLY IT IS NOT IMMERSION. This is the plain reading of the text.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Baby baptism or infant baptism is not biblical. Jesus didn’t teach or practice it

Of course Jesus didn't practice baptism. Christian baptism was instituted until after his resurrection but before his ascension. And the first Christian baptisms occurred 50 days after his resurrection. It is impossible for Christ to practice any baptism on anyone.

Jesus didn't teach infant baptism? What about Jesus' statement in the Great Commission?

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

  • Jesus says to baptize all nations, and infants are a significant portion nations and there was never a nation without infants
  • Jesus neither instituted adult nor infant baptism just simply baptism--baptism for all. All Human souls are intended for baptism.
  • Christians are authorized to baptize all who compose a nation, men, women and children & infants.
  • Jesus did not specify any particular mode to be used or a preferred mode.
  • There is no age or intellectual developmental requirement given for baptism.
  • The command, therefore, to baptize all nations, is a command to baptize the youngest child as well as the oldest man. We are not to exclude what Jesus has included.
  • Jesus never says "Baptize all nations except....."
  • Baptism is of universal application; it is a cosmopolitan command in which the differences such as of nationality, race, age, sex, social or civil status or unique cultural norms are leveled.
 
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rturner76

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I am a Southern Baptist by choice and we never baptize babies because it it NOT BIBLICAL in any way.
Tell that to the original Church that Jesus and St Peter founded. Your church is an offshoot and man-made though still Christian in sporot.
 
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Baby baptism or infant baptism is not biblical. Jesus didn’t teach or practice it and none of his disciples did either. Nowhere in Scriptures will you find any instructions concerning baby baptism.
I guess you have something to teach the original church.
 
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I guess you have something to teach the original church.

No sir. Full disclosure is always the key to truth.....Agree????

You see, when we read the Didache we clearly see that it allows for the pouring of water three times instead of full immersion. This was allowed for in the absence of sufficient water for immersion.

Second, in the third century, Cyprian defended both sprinkling and pouring instead of full immersion in cases where a person was expected to die soon.

I have done the same thing with 2 people in nursing homes who were terminally ill and could not be moved. That does not in any way set a president that all baptisms are NOT full immersion.
 
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Tell that to the original Church that Jesus and St Peter founded. Your church is an offshoot and man-made though still Christian in sporot.

I will be more than happy to debate with you but I really do not think that you will want to.

To say or think that the CATHOLIC church was the original Church that Jesus founded is an example of how effective the TCC has been in changing real history.. The Roman Catholic Church is not the “original” or “true” church. It does not date back to the first century, or to the apostle Peter, as it claims to do. In fact it really began to develop properly from AD 312, when the Roman Emperor, Constantine alleged that he had become a Christian.

He did so because he said that he had seen a vision of a cross in the sky and when he was successful in a subsequent battle he attributed it to this. As a result, this Roman Emperor, who had known nothing other than paganism all his life, suddenly “joined” the early fourth century church in Rome. He effectively took it over.

Thus, overnight, the real church, which had existed for three centuries, and which had had to be underground for some of that time due to persecution, was suddenly legal.

Now that is REAL history but again, I am more than happy to discuss this with you.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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when we read the Didache

You quoting from extra biblical material. Extra biblical material is NEVER to interpret Scripture.

This practice is not allowed by Sola Scripture, plus it goes against the Sufficiency of Scripture. Meaning the exact divine words of Scripture is all that is needed for faith and life of the Christian faith.
 
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No sir. Full disclosure is always the key to truth.....Agree????

You see, when we read the Didache we clearly see that it allows for the pouring of water three times instead of full immersion. This was allowed for in the absence of sufficient water for immersion.

Second, in the third century, Cyprian defended both sprinkling and pouring instead of full immersion in cases where a person was expected to die soon.

I have done the same thing with 2 people in nursing homes who were terminally ill and could not be moved. That does not in any way set a president that all baptisms are NOT full immersion.
And? What does that have to do with infant baptism?

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

God knows his babies and they know him.

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
 
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Major1

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Of course Jesus didn't practice baptism. Christian baptism was instituted until after his resurrection but before his ascension. And the first Christian baptisms occurred 50 days after his resurrection. It is impossible for Christ to practice any baptism on anyone.

Jesus didn't teach infant baptism? What about Jesus' statement in the Great Commission?

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

  • Jesus says to baptize all nations, and infants are a significant portion nations and there was never a nation without infants
  • Jesus neither instituted adult nor infant baptism just simply baptism--baptism for all. All Human souls are intended for baptism.
  • Christians are authorized to baptize all who compose a nation, men, women and children & infants.
  • Jesus did not specify any particular mode to be used or a preferred mode.
  • There is no age or intellectual developmental requirement given for baptism.
  • The command, therefore, to baptize all nations, is a command to baptize the youngest child as well as the oldest man. We are not to exclude what Jesus has included.
  • Jesus never says "Baptize all nations except....."
  • Baptism is of universal application; it is a cosmopolitan command in which the differences such as of nationality, race, age, sex, social or civil status or unique cultural norms are leveled.

My dear friend......all the maniulations you are doing just do not hold water.

Jesus never Baptized anyone!

The statement of......
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," has absolutly NOTHINING in it that suggests INFANT Baptism.

You are working hard to prove something that can not be proven!!!
 
  • Agree
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