FBI raid Mar-A-Lago

Alive2 · Aug 16, 2022

The Barbarian said:
The key is what their followers did. In Trump's case, the question is whether or not he knew that his followers were violent and lawless people who would take his words as orders to attempt to overthrow the Constitution.

And that's arguable. What isn't arguable is whether or not thousands of his followers thought he intended them to attack the Capitol. They openly admitted that they did.

And there's another issue. Some of these people were dumb enough to organize the attack on the Capitol on social media. Which isn't that significant, except that they did it before Trump told them to do so. In other words, the coup attempt was going to happen regardless of what Trump said the day of the attempt.

Which means that his words that day weren't the sole cause of the insurrection.

This is approaching a more fair position, IMO.
It must be noted that there are always fringe individuals within any 'group' and it must be admitted that there is a strong possibility that agents were planted there not associated with the actual 'Trump' backers.

Postvieww · Aug 16, 2022

The Barbarian said:
Let’s take a look at some of those “extremely calming” words from the speech he delivered on Jan. 6:

“And we fight. We fight like hell And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

“All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical-left Democrats, which is what they’re doing … We will never give up, we will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.”

“Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about … We will stop the steal.”

“Because you’ll never take back our country with weakness, you have to show strength and you have to be strong.”

Trump Says His ‘Fight Like Hell’ Speech Before Capitol Riot Was Actually ‘Extremely Calming’

There are many videos of the statement on YouTube:

The insurgents arrested in the coup attempt admit that they were obeying Trump's orders. Americans listened to what Trump said, watched what his followers did, and overwhelminginly concluded that he should be charged.

Nearly 6 in 10 Americans say Trump should be criminally charged for his role in Jan. 6 riot
6 in 10 say Trump should face criminal charges for Jan 6 role: ABC poll

"Degrees don't impress me. Being able to form a cogent argument, supported by evidence, impresses me."

I agree with the line above from your post. Said post did not show video in context as requested. Stay tuned for a response that will do just that.

Postvieww · Aug 16, 2022

The Barbarian said:
The key is what their followers did. In Trump's case, the question is whether or not he knew that his followers were violent and lawless people who would take his words as orders to attempt to overthrow the Constitution.

And that's arguable. What isn't arguable is whether or not thousands of his followers thought he intended them to attack the Capitol. They openly admitted that they did.

And there's another issue. Some of these people were dumb enough to organize the attack on the Capitol on social media. Which isn't that significant, except that they did it before Trump told them to do so. In other words, the coup attempt was going to happen regardless of what Trump said the day of the attempt.

Which means that his words that day weren't the sole cause of the insurrection.

Back pedaling just a bit Hmmm!

Postvieww · Aug 16, 2022

Trump's Full Speech at D.C. Rally on Jan. 6

Here is the entire Jan 6 speech. Key time references are 11:46 , 15:49 , 19:03 and 69:35 . Not 1 of these statements in context are a call to physical violence All attempts to pull them out of context and mold them into fodder for a liberal agenda is contemptible , dishonest and non-becoming for those who name the name of Christ.

The Barbarian · Aug 16, 2022

Alive2 said:
Although I think it was foolish to talk like that in that context, it is consistent language from Trump. I do not believe his intention was violence.

That's a testable belief. The answer can be found in what Trump did or rather didn't do when his followers attempted to stop the certification.

In spite of his aides and even his family begging him to do his duty, he refused to do anything until it was clear that the coup attempt had failed.

The Barbarian · Aug 16, 2022

Postvieww said:
Back pedaling just a bit Hmmm!

He probably didn't get up that morning and say "Hey, I think I'll fire up my goons to attack America." Obviously, many of them did take his words as orders to attack the Capitol; they admit that they did. But others of his followers had been planning the coup for some time. They were just careless enough to do it on social media were it was eventually found.

It doesn't mean that he doesn't bear responsibility for the people he fired up and sent there. It just means that his words that day weren't the only reason for the insurrection.

Postvieww · Aug 16, 2022

The Barbarian said:
That's a testable belief. The answer can be found in what Trump did or rather didn't do when his followers attempted to stop the certification.

In spite of his aides and even his family begging him to do his duty, he refused to do anything until it was clear that the coup attempt had failed.

The coup took place in November. If you doubt that there are a whole lot of facts you have to ignore.

The Barbarian · Aug 16, 2022

Postvieww said:
Here is the entire Jan 6 speech. Key time references are 11:46 , 15:49 , 19:03 and 69:35 . Not 1 of these statements in context are a call to physical violence All attempts to pull them out of context and mold them into fodder for a liberal agenda is contemptible , dishonest and non-becoming for those who name the name of Christ.

Bottom line, his own followers admit that they took those words as orders to attack the Capitol.

Postvieww · Aug 16, 2022

The Barbarian said:
Bottom line, his own followers admit that they took those words as orders to attack the Capitol.

Can you show the evidence of that. I don't deny that there are crazies out there but this unnatural hatred for Trump is totally unjustified. Look at the shape we are in.

BPPLEE · Aug 16, 2022

The Barbarian said:
He probably didn't get up that morning and say "Hey, I think I'll fire up my goons to attack America." Obviously, many of them did take his words as orders to attack the Capitol; they admit that they did. But others of his followers had been planning the coup for some time. They were just careless enough to do it on social media were it was eventually found.

It doesn't mean that he doesn't bear responsibility for the people he fired up and sent there. It just means that his words that day weren't the only reason for the insurrection.

This was the most poorly planned and executed coup attempt in history

Postvieww · Aug 16, 2022

Anyone care to comment on this? Changes the narrative just a bit don't you think?

Postvieww · Aug 16, 2022

It is very possible there were plants in that crowd.

The Barbarian · Aug 16, 2022

BPPLEE said:
This was the most poorly planned and executed coup attempt in history

And that's the scary thing. "What if these guys hadn't been idiots? It might have worked."

The Barbarian · Aug 16, 2022

Postvieww said:
It is very possible there were plants in that crowd.

They could have been lizard men sent by Queen Elizabeth. But what matters is evidence. There was one black guy, who someone said was a BLM member. Doesn't seem like it changes much, does it?

BPPLEE · Aug 16, 2022

The Barbarian said:
And that's the scary thing. "What if these guys hadn't been idiots? It might have worked."

It wouldn't have accomplished anything. The election would have just been certified the next day. All the protesters accomplished was property damage, trespassing and managing to get one of their fellow protesters killed.

The Barbarian · Aug 16, 2022

Postvieww said:
The coup took place in November.

If you think of an election as a coup, you're listening to the wrong people. And even Trump people have admitted that the election was fair not rigged. Trump's own daughter tried to reason with him, but he wasn't going to listen.

Casting doubts on claims made by her father, Donald Trump, that the 2020 presidential election was stolen, former White House advisor Ivanka told a congressional hearing on the US Capitol riot she doesn't believe his contention the polls were rigged.

A recording of Ivanka Trump’s deposition was shown to the public for the first time during the first hearing of the House panel where she disputed her father’s claims.

In her testimony, Ivanka explains how she accepted Attorney General Bill Barr’s assertion that the election had been fair and free of fraud.

“I respected AG Barr, and accepted what he was saying,” she said.

Ivanka was referring to Barr’s appearance before panel investigators, where, in the video, he was heard saying that his justice department had discovered no significant fraud to support Donald Trump’s claim of massive voter fraud in several key states.
Ivanka Trump disputes her father’s claim that 2020 presidential election was rigged

The Barbarian · Aug 16, 2022

BPPLEE said:
It wouldn't have accomplished anything. The election would have just been certified the next day. All the protesters accomplished was property damage, trespassing and managing to get one of their fellow protesters killed.

There was more to the plan. There were plans to have the military seize ballot machines and to install new "election judges." Problem was, the plotters assumed that just putting Trump loyalists in key Pentagon positions would be enough. But our military people weren't having it. They refused to go along.

The conversations put Milley on edge, and he began informally planning with other military leaders, strategizing how they would block Trump’s order to use the military in a way they deemed dangerous or illegal.

If someone wanted to seize control, Milley thought, they would need to gain sway over the FBI, the CIA and the Defense Department, where Trump had already installed staunch allies. “They may try, but they’re not going to (bleep) succeed,” he told some of his closest deputies, the book says.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...26f5fe-e4ec-11eb-a41e-c8442c213fa8_story.html

Milley also managed to calm the Chinese, who were deeply concerned about the instability in the WH at the time.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley placed two phone calls to his Chinese counterpart in the waning months of Donald Trump’s presidency to secretly reassure Beijing that the United States would not attack the country, a spokesman for Milley confirmed Wednesday.

The calls were first reported in the forthcoming book “Peril” by Washington Post journalists Bob Woodward and Robert Costa.

“His calls with the Chinese and others in October and January were in keeping with these duties and responsibilities conveying reassurance in order to maintain strategic stability,” said the spokesman, Col. Dave Butler.

All of Milley’s calls were coordinated with the rest of the Department of Defense and other relevant agencies, Butler added.

Milley did not tell Trump about the calls.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/mil...ina-others-as-trump-pushed-election-lies.html

BPPLEE · Aug 16, 2022

The Barbarian said:
There was more to the plan. There were plans to have the military seize ballot machines and to install new "election judges." Problem was, the plotters assumed that just putting Trump loyalists in key Pentagon positions would be enough. But our military people weren't having it. They refused to go along.

The conversations put Milley on edge, and he began informally planning with other military leaders, strategizing how they would block Trump’s order to use the military in a way they deemed dangerous or illegal.

If someone wanted to seize control, Milley thought, they would need to gain sway over the FBI, the CIA and the Defense Department, where Trump had already installed staunch allies. “They may try, but they’re not going to (bleep) succeed,” he told some of his closest deputies, the book says.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...26f5fe-e4ec-11eb-a41e-c8442c213fa8_story.html

Milley also managed to calm the Chinese, who were deeply concerned about the instability in the WH at the time.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley placed two phone calls to his Chinese counterpart in the waning months of Donald Trump’s presidency to secretly reassure Beijing that the United States would not attack the country, a spokesman for Milley confirmed Wednesday.

The calls were first reported in the forthcoming book “Peril” by Washington Post journalists Bob Woodward and Robert Costa.

“His calls with the Chinese and others in October and January were in keeping with these duties and responsibilities conveying reassurance in order to maintain strategic stability,” said the spokesman, Col. Dave Butler.

All of Milley’s calls were coordinated with the rest of the Department of Defense and other relevant agencies, Butler added.

Milley did not tell Trump about the calls.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/mil...ina-others-as-trump-pushed-election-lies.html

So Milley committed treason.

The Barbarian · Aug 16, 2022

Bottom line, his own followers admit that they took those words as orders to attack the Capitol.

Postvieww said:
Can you show the evidence of that.

A man from Ohio who is accused of entering the U.S. Capitol and stealing a coat rack from the Senate during the January 6 siege of the building, claims he was 'inspired to do so by former President Donald Trump's lies about election fraud.'
...
As of Monday, at least 95 individuals have been charged in connection with the riot, according to DOJ records with at least five using a similar defense.
MAGA rioter, 36, says he was 'inspired by Trump's words of election fraud' - becoming the fifth person in the mob charged with storming the Capitol to use that defense - STATIONGOSSIP

Thompson's justification for his action as being the president's own words brings to at least five the numbers of Trump supporters facing federal charges to have suggested they were taking orders from the then-president when they marched on Capitol Hill.

The words may end up being used against him in his Senate impeachment trial as he faces the charge of inciting a violent insurrection.

The comments, captured in interviews with reporters and federal agents, are likely to take center stage as Democrats lay out their case. It's the first time a former president will face such charges after leaving office.

'I feel like I was basically following my president. I was following what we were called to do. He asked us to fly there. He asked us to be there,' Jenna Ryan, a Texas real estate agent who posted a photo on Twitter of herself flashing a peace sign next to a broken Capitol window, told a Dallas-Fort Worth TV station.
Trump's words inspired me to storm the Capitol and I was brainwashed, MAGA rioter says | Daily Mail Online

The Barbarian · Aug 16, 2022

BPPLEE said:
So Milley committed treason.

Depends on whether or not you think that making sure we didn't have a war with China was helping our enemies. Milley did his job and did it well.

Treason would be attempting to overthrow the Constitution or aid its enemies.

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