Why do catholics pray to Mary

concretecamper · Aug 14, 2022

ICONO'CLAST said:
I am an ex catholic.

so sad

ICONO'CLAST said:
I needed to read scripture to see what God said.

Jesus told us that God speaks through His Church.

ICONO'CLAST said:
Mary and the saints are not omniscient

I'm not aware of anyone who says differently.

Valletta · Aug 14, 2022

atpollard said:
You would guess correctly.

Being a veteran of these sorts of “discussions” in the past, I know that if I read through the posts I will find far more “heat” and “smoke” than I will find “light” (from all sides). I am also familiar enough with both Catholic Apologists and practicing Catholics to know that I will receive one answer from the Catechism quoted by apologists that does not reflect the reality of the practicing laity with whom I have politely spoken about their faith.

My mother prayed to Mary constantly and never to God because her Catholic School education instilled in her a fear of God and a love and trust in “The Blessed Virgin” (and she was not alone) … my answer reflected the Catholic faith where the rubber meets the road.

It is Catholic teaching that we are to love our neighbor and pray for one another. We pray for everyone in the world, there are many non-Christians who need our prayers. There is no saint holier than Mary, so at times when not praying directly to God Mary is a natural choice. In some common prayers such as the Rosary we very much pray the Bible, a lot of it is meditating on scenes from the Bible, and there are Our Fathers, Hail Marys, and Glory Bes within the Rosary. At mass we pray Psalms, the vast majority are mostly addressed straight to God and some address the angels. I occasionally pray Psalms outside of mass. Sometimes I address just One Person of the Trinity, such as the Holy Spirit, but I know all Three hear my prayers.

The Liturgist · Aug 15, 2022

Chris35 said:
What pleases God?

Among other things, offering His blessed Mother the veneration she deserves, for God loves her, and by her God became man in order to save us, and she points the way to Him.

The Liturgist · Aug 15, 2022

Major1 said:
I have absolultly no bone to pick with you. You are free to exercise your choice of religion just as I am.

However.....when you openly make the comments you have you open the door for others who do not think as you do to say what they believe.

I DO NOT follow the directions of men or Popes or religion. I am a Bible literalist. What the Bible says is what I repeat!

Anyone is free to ignore what it says and what I repeat from its pages.

Now.....having said that, there is NO Scriptures in the Word of God which say that Mary is to be venerated, worshipped or to be considered above or better than any other person.!!!

Mary was just a person God used for His purposes. Because of certain misunderstandings about Mary, it is important to note that she was not chosen because she was more holy than other people. The angel’s address to her as “highly favored” and “blessed” is a reference to the uniqueness of her pending task, not to any level of virtuousness she had attained.

Mary was surely a godly woman, but that is not the point. Gabriel’s emphasis was on her privilege, not her piety. She had “found favor with God” (verse 30), but that says more about God’s goodness than Mary’s.

When we actually READ the Bible, we can see that the angel gives Mary a number of high compliments, BUT, nothing indicates that she is worthy of worship, or veneration

I’ve got to stop you right there. I do not worship or adore the Blessed Virgin Mary, for only God is worthy of worship and adoration. I do however venerate her, indeed moreso than anyone else, but humans can be worthy of veneration - indeed, the love we have for our own family members constitutes veneration. The admiration some people have for famous people is a form of veneration. For my part, I believe, as did the early church, that the Theotokos, being the Mother of God, is worthy of the greatest veneration.

let alone being an intercessor between Jesus Christ and His followers, or a Co-Redemptrix,

Minor fact check: it is not Roman Catholic doctrine that St. Mary is the co-redemptrix. There is a group pushing for this, which they call the “Fifth Dogma”, but it has disturbing origins, having originated with Ida Peerdeman, a Dutch lady who described a Marian apparition whose behaviors were strange, threatening and inconsistent with everything we know about the loving nature of the Theotokos, and her “private revelations” have consistently been rejected by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith as unworthy of belief.

I am not Roman Catholic however, so if they did declare St. Mary to be co-redemptrix, while I would be extremely upset, for as I see it this would be akin to the heresy of the Collyridians, it would not affect me personally.

sinless for her entire life, or given any other honor aside from being God's chosen vessel for the purpose of the Son of God being made flesh and blood.

Firstly, the Son of God is God, just as our Heavenly Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. And it is because God chose her to be His mother (let us not demean maternity with a phrase like “chosen vessel” - she was the mother of the incarnate Word of God, nothing less), that she is worthy of extreme veneration. In venerating her, however, we do not deny that Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, was her Savior as much as he was our Savior. This view is also held by the Roman Catholics.

Now, all of that stuff mentioned above is Catholic Denomination teaching

No its not. You might consider reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church before asserting what is or is not Roman Catholic doctrine. Meanwhile I would be happy to send you the catechism of my church for purposes of comparison, since there are many Roman Catholic beliefs, such as Papal infallibility, created grace, absolute divine simplicity, purgatory and indulgences, to name just a few, which I do not share.

Again, with all respect, you are free to believe it and accept it and do it, but you can not do it and say that it comes from BIBLICAL directions.

What I actually believe, as opposed to what you apparently think I believe, under the misguided assumption that I am Roman Catholic, is solidly scriptural and in accord with the teachings of the Early Church, the Orthodox churches and the early Protestants.

God chose Mary to be the mother of the Messiah for several reasons........

1. Mary was of the right lineage.

2. Mary was engaged to a man whose heritage would require him to visit Bethlehem at just the right time.

3. Mary was a virgin.

4. Mary was from Nazareth.

All true. Also the fact that she was more obedient to God than anyone else doubtless played a major role.

Now for some clarifications:

I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and in venerating the our glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, I am rather following the practices of the early Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, and the first Protestants (the proto-Moravians under St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, Martin Luther and the early Lutherans, especially the Lutherans of the Church of Sweden, and the early Anglicans), which are preserved to this day by High Church Anglicans, and also by Evangelical Catholic Lutherans such as one finds in the Missouri Synod, the Lutheran Church of Canada, and the Mission Province of the Church of Sweden (and a related reform movement in the Church of Norway).

So I don’t want to hear about what doctrines the Roman Catholic gets wrong, because I am not a Roman Catholic, although I will say this: I do feel sorry for them, because people on this forum are constantly and relentlessly criticizing them, often on baseless grounds. For example, in this thread you made at least two unwarranted accusations against the Roman Catholic church, insofar as it is not the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic church that Mary is the co-redemptrix, whereas it is the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic church that God alone is worthy of worship and adoration.

The Liturgist · Aug 15, 2022

Landon Caeli said:
Sure it does, in Psalm 103:20–21:
“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!”

...In this prayer, the angels are being prayed to.

And furthermore, as you noted with the strikethrough, neither your church nor the Orthodox nor the traditional Protestants worship the angels or the saints.

Veneration, or in Koine Greek, doulia, is not the same as worship (latria) and everyone agrees that only the one God: Father, Son and Holy Ghost is worthy of worship and adoration.

BNR32FAN · Aug 15, 2022

Major1 said:
Deut. 18:10-12 is the Scripture you asked for..............
"There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you."

Lev. 19:31
“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God."

"Necromancy" = the practice of magic or black magic involving communication with the dead.

this has nothing to do with praying because they’re not seeking council with the dead nor are they using any sort of witchcraft oracles or mediums.

Major1 · Aug 15, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
this has nothing to do with praying because they’re not seeking council with the dead nor are they using any sort of witchcraft oracles or mediums.

Please READ the Scripture............
"one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does"

It really is not that difficult to understand!

prodromos · Aug 15, 2022

Major1 said:
Please READ the Scripture............
"one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does"

It really is not that difficult to understand!

Inquiring of the dead means you expect an answer from the one you are making the inquiry. Asking the Saints to pray for you is just that. No answer is sought or expected. It really is not that difficult to understand.

Major1 · Aug 15, 2022

The Liturgist said:
I’ve got to stop you right there. I do not worship or adore the Blessed Virgin Mary, for only God is worthy of worship and adoration. I do however venerate her, indeed moreso than anyone else, but humans can be worthy of veneration - indeed, the love we have for our own family members constitutes veneration. The admiration some people have for famous people is a form of veneration. For my part, I believe, as did the early church, that the Theotokos, being the Mother of God, is worthy of the greatest veneration.

Minor fact check: it is not Roman Catholic doctrine that St. Mary is the co-redemptrix. There is a group pushing for this, which they call the “Fifth Dogma”, but it has disturbing origins, having originated with Ida Peerdeman, a Dutch lady who described a Marian apparition whose behaviors were strange, threatening and inconsistent with everything we know about the loving nature of the Theotokos, and her “private revelations” have consistently been rejected by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith as unworthy of belief.

I am not Roman Catholic however, so if they did declare St. Mary to be co-redemptrix, while I would be extremely upset, for as I see it this would be akin to the heresy of the Collyridians, it would not affect me personally.

Firstly, the Son of God is God, just as our Heavenly Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. And it is because God chose her to be His mother (let us not demean maternity with a phrase like “chosen vessel” - she was the mother of the incarnate Word of God, nothing less), that she is worthy of extreme veneration. In venerating her, however, we do not deny that Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, was her Savior as much as he was our Savior. This view is also held by the Roman Catholics.

No its not. You might consider reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church before asserting what is or is not Roman Catholic doctrine. Meanwhile I would be happy to send you the catechism of my church for purposes of comparison, since there are many Roman Catholic beliefs, such as Papal infallibility, created grace, absolute divine simplicity, purgatory and indulgences, to name just a few, which I do not share.

What I actually believe, as opposed to what you apparently think I believe, under the misguided assumption that I am Roman Catholic, is solidly scriptural and in accord with the teachings of the Early Church, the Orthodox churches and the early Protestants.

All true. Also the fact that she was more obedient to God than anyone else doubtless played a major role.

Now for some clarifications:

I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and in venerating the our glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, I am rather following the practices of the early Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, and the first Protestants (the proto-Moravians under St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, Martin Luther and the early Lutherans, especially the Lutherans of the Church of Sweden, and the early Anglicans), which are preserved to this day by High Church Anglicans, and also by Evangelical Catholic Lutherans such as one finds in the Missouri Synod, the Lutheran Church of Canada, and the Mission Province of the Church of Sweden (and a related reform movement in the Church of Norway).

So I don’t want to hear about what doctrines the Roman Catholic gets wrong, because I am not a Roman Catholic, although I will say this: I do feel sorry for them, because people on this forum are constantly and relentlessly criticizing them, often on baseless grounds. For example, in this thread you made at least two unwarranted accusations against the Roman Catholic church, insofar as it is not the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic church that Mary is the co-redemptrix, whereas it is the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic church that God alone is worthy of worship and adoration.

Fact check!!!!!! Wonderful - lets do that so we can all learn about what you are saying.

You say you VENERATE but do not worship Mary! FACT!!!
Every dictionary says that To venerate is to regard with great respect or to revere. Veneration can be defined as “respect or awe directed toward someone due to his/her value or greatness.”

The simplest definition of worship is to “ascribe worth.”
Worship can be more completely defined as “showing respect, love, reverence, or adoration.”
FACT:----Based on the dictionary, no clear difference between veneration and worship exists. In

FACT;------veneration and worship are used as synonyms for each other.

FACT:--------By YOUR own words you said.........
"I do however venerate her, indeed moreso than anyone else".

But dictionary definitions are not the point. It does not matter what it is called.

FACT:---------
The Bible nowhere instructs followers of Jesus Christ to offer worship, veneration, adoration, or anything similar to anyone but God.

Nowhere does the New Testament describe any followers of Jesus Christ worshiping, venerating, or adoring anyone other than God.

They did not receive worship, either. Peter refused to receive adoration from Cornelius in Acts 10:25-26.

Paul and Barnabas were equally adamant that the people of Lystra not venerate them in Acts 14:15.

Twice in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 19:10 & 22:8), the apostle John begins to worship an angel, and the angel instructs him, “Worship God!” Mary and the saints who have gone to heaven before us would say the same thing: “Worship God!”

FACT:-------
The Catholic Church has different degrees of worship:
1. dulia,
2. hyper dulia, and
3. latria.

Dulia is the honor given to the saints.
Hyper dulia is the honor given to Mary alone, as the greatest of the saints.
Latria is the honor given to God alone.

In contrast, the Bible always ascribes honor, in the context of worship, to God alone (1 Chronicles 29:11; 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16; Revelation 4:11 ; 5:13).

FACT:---------There is no biblical support for offering lower/lesser levels of worship or "Veneration" to anyone other than God!!!!!!!!

Major1 · Aug 15, 2022

prodromos said:
Inquiring of the dead means you expect an answer from the one you are making the inquiry. Asking the Saints to pray for you is just that. No answer is sought or expected. It really is not that difficult to understand.

It sure seems to be difficult for those who want to do it.

You see.....what we have here is classic.

I know what I like. Like what I know and even when God says I should not, I will do it anyway!

concretecamper · Aug 15, 2022

Does anyone find it amusing that we have someone arguing against the Catholic Church and the opponents aren't Catholic. Too funny. You can't make this nonsense up.

Seems like more than Catholics who pray to the Saints. In fact, I would say the vast majority of Christianity prays to the Saints. Yet our poster ALWAYS mentions the Catholic Church. I wonder why?

prodromos · Aug 15, 2022

Major1 said:
It sure seems to be difficult for those who want to do it.

You see.....what we have here is classic.

I know what I like. Like what I know and even when God says I should not, I will do it anyway!

Necromancy is specifically seeking knowledge from the dead. Asking the Saints to pray for us does not in any way, shape or form fit the definition of necromancy. You bear false witness.

prodromos · Aug 15, 2022

concretecamper said:
Does anyone find it amusing that we have someone arguing against the Catholic Church and the opponents aren't Catholic. Too funny. You can't make this nonsense up.

Seems like more than Catholics who pray to the Saints. In fact, I would say the vast majority of Christianity prays to the Saints. Yet our poster ALWAYS mentions the Catholic Church. I wonder why?

Major1 defines his faith in opposition to Catholicism. It is the subject of almost every thread he starts.

Major1 · Aug 15, 2022

prodromos said:
Necromancy is specifically seeking knowledge from the dead. Asking the Saints to pray for us does not in any way, shape or form fit the definition of necromancy. You bear false witness.

I disagree!

I will stand by Webster's definition instead of yours as yours is biased to what YOU want to believe.

nec·ro·man·cy
[ˈnekrəˌmansē]
NOUN

the supposed practice of communicating with the dead,
"alchemy, necromancy, and other magic practices"
- sorcery or black magic in general.
  synonyms:
  (black) magic · the black arts · witchcraft · wizardry · the occult · occultism · enchantment · spell · incantation · divination · voodooism · voodoo ·
  [more]
Call Websters and tell them they are false witnesses because in reality my friend, I do not care one little bit about your opinions.

Landon Caeli · Aug 15, 2022

Major1 said:
It sure seems to be difficult for those who want to do it.

You see.....what we have here is classic.

I know what I like. Like what I know and even when God says I should not, I will do it anyway!

If the Church says to do it, it's just as good as Scripture. It's just that simple.

The Holy Church and the Holy Scriptures are equal in authority. In fact. I'm so confident of it, I encourage ALL Christians to pray to Mary... You should try it yourself.

Major1 · Aug 15, 2022

prodromos said:
Major1 defines his faith in opposition to Catholicism. It is the subject of almost every thread he starts.

Major did not start this thread!!!!!!!!

I am not in opposition to the Catholic faith. YOU my friend bear false witness!!!!

I am for what GOD says in His written Word as the truth of Life. If what GOD said is different than what YOU believe then that is not my concern.

John 17:17.......
" Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

Landon Caeli · Aug 15, 2022

prodromos said:
Major1 defines his faith in opposition to Catholicism. It is the subject of almost every thread he starts.

I've met some Jehovahs Witnesses like that. The basis of their entire faith seems to be based on battling Catholicism. It's sad.

They could be spending all that time doing something good instead.

Major1 · Aug 15, 2022

Landon Caeli said:
If the Church says to do it, it's just as good as Scripture. It's just that simple.

The Holy Church and the Holy Scriptures are equal in authority. In fact. I'm so confident of it, I encourage ALL Christians to pray to Mary... You should try it yourself.

Not true in any sense of the word.

And what you just posted is the essence of the difference between Cathosolism and Protestiism.

There is NPOT ONE SINGLE BIBLE Scripture to support what you just posted.

You just posted Catholic theology.

The Mormon can do the very same thing.
So can the 7th Dat Advantist.
So can the JW'S.

All of that is simply mans opinions of religion and is NOT THE WORD of GOD!

Infallibility is never stated as the possession of those who would become church leaders in succession of the apostles. In both the Old and New Testaments, it is seen that duly appointed religious leaders always caused the people of God to error.

Landon Caeli · Aug 15, 2022

Major1 said:
Not true in any sense of the word.

And what you just posted is the essence of the difference between Cathosolism and Protestiism.

There is NPOT ONE SINGLE BIBLE Scripture to support what you just posted.

You just posted Catholic theology.

The Mormon can do the very same thing.
So can the 7th Dat Advantist.
So can the JW'S.

All of that is simply mans opinions of religion and is NOT THE WORD of GOD!

Infallibility is never stated as the possession of those who would become church leaders in succession of the apostles. In both the Old and New Testaments, it is seen that duly appointed religious leaders always caused the people of God to error.

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

Jesus Christ is Head of the Church. It's biblical. And infallible in doctrine, through Jesus Christ Himself!

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Landon Caeli · Aug 15, 2022

"if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." ~ Jesus Christ.

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