the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

Douggg said:

Dave, why would you think Gog/Magog is complete ?

Click to expand...

It's not. You've got the two events reversed in your diagram. Gog/Magog happens after the thousand years are finished. Armageddon, the great battle of God Almighty, is happening now. The world is at war with God.

Trade the chart, do not trade a story. There's too many stories out there. All I care about is the location of the 70th week. I'll figure out the story when I get there.

Douggg said:

It is against the forums rules here.

Click to expand...

It didn't used to be. We used to do it all the time during the Revelation 12 sign.

People are still just looking for the answer to these questions:

The answer is now.

The time, the 62 and 7, are fulfilled again.

The Kingdom of God is at hand.

We are in the last heptad.

The cries from these specific stones are reaching their crescendo right now:

Dave Watchman said:

It's not. You've got the two events reversed in your diagram. Gog/Magog happens after the thousand years are finished. Armageddon, the great battle of God Almighty, is happening now. The world is at war with God.

Click to expand...

Armageddon is Revelation 16 is a place where the kings of the earth will gather their armies with the intent on making war on Jesus. It is in Israel. And follows five vials of God's wrath.

Has not begun yet because it is instigated by the dragon (Satan), the beast, and the false prophet. The beast and the false prophet have not come forward yet.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

_____________________________________________

Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39 is 7 years before Jesus's return. It is infallible to be at any other time because of Ezekiel 39:21-29.

The referral to Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8 is that those same nations will attack the camp of the saints - a referral to Israel - as they had done a thousand seven years earlier.

Douggg said:

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Click to expand...

And of the whole world. It's the whole world against God.

The first time Jesus came, people didn't know what was happening.

The same thing is happening now. People have various expectations which they demand to see. Like the Pharisees going down to see John the Baptist and asking him if he was Messiah.

People are watching the middle east now and for a rebuilt temple and for a human Antichrist. But the events are unfolding before our eyes and are not being recognized. Just like when Jesus came the first time, it's being slipped in on us. And this fulfills the days of Noah. People are not going to know until the flood comes and sweeps them all away. You're not going to be able to watch Armageddon on TV happening someplace north of Israel. Armageddon hasn't culminated yet, but the battle is being fought now.

Douggg said:

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Click to expand...

If I'm right about the timing, we are much closer to this that most are realizing.

Douggg said:

Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39 is 7 years before Jesus's return. It is infallible to be at any other time because of Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Click to expand...

Ezekiel 39 was a conditional prophecy which depended on the first century Jews redeeming the 70 weeks. That's why Revelation has moved the end time equivalent to after the thousand years are finished. But it's the same thing, the destruction of the lost. The bonus is that we won't have to burn wooden weapons for 7 years.

I'm the slothful servant anyway.

Super Kal said:

**Justin Martyr (A.D. 153–165) did not mention Daniel 9.

Click to expand...

Too bad.

Super Kal said:

**Irenaeus (A.D. 180) mentioned it but did not interpret the time periods or the Messiahs.

Click to expand...

Too bad.

Super Kal said:

**Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 200) included both Jesus Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem in the 490 years. His interpretation implies a gap between the first 69 weeks and the last week.

Click to expand...

I think the destruction of Jerusalem culminated about 34 years after the 70th week was finished. But this time we can have a gap, or a delay, of just one year. What Newton called the compass of a Jubilee.

Super Kal said:

**Tertullian (A.D. 203), by making certain calculation errors, was able to include both Jesus Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem in the 490 years without a gap.

Click to expand...

Too much of a stretch. The destruction of Jerusalem occurred after the 70th week was finished.

Super Kal said:

**Hippolytus (A.D. 202–230) interpreted the Messiah as Jesus Christ but, similar to Dispensationalism, interpreted the final week as a future period of seven years when the Antichrist will rule.

Click to expand...

He is correct.

Super Kal said:

**Julius Africanus (A.D. 232) proposed that the full 490 years came to an end with Jesus’ baptism.

Click to expand...

Jesus’ baptism happened after 69 weeks were finished when He said that the "time" was fulfilled and the Kingdom of God is at hand early in Mark. Jesus’ baptism was year #1 of the 70th week.

Super Kal said:

**For Origen (A.D. 215), the Messiah in Daniel 9:25 is Jesus Christ and Daniel’s seventy-weeks prophecy was fulfilled in Christ.

Click to expand...

Correct.

Super Kal said:

**The church historian Eusebius (A.D. 314–318) interpreted the first half of the week as the 3½ years of Jesus’ public ministry and the second half as fulfilled after Jesus was resurrected. In the middle of the ‘week’, He “put a stop to sacrifice” (Dan 9:27) through His death.

Click to expand...

Correct.

Super Kal said:

**Apollinaris of Laodicea (A.D. 360) regarded the seventy weeks as the time between the two advents of Christ. The 70th week would be a period at the end of the world when the Antichrist will literally enter the temple and issue a decree outlawing the offering of sacrifices.

Click to expand...

He's right when he says: "The 70th week would be a period at the end of the world, and he's also right when he says: "the seventy weeks as the time between the two advents of Christ. But it's confusing to explain. I don't think that he could have known there would be two sets of 70 week periods, the one we are in does in fact separate the two comings of Christ.

Technically he is correct, but I think he got lucky with the vocabulary.

Super Kal said:

**Julius Hilarianus (A.D. 397) was the first patristic writer to adopt a non-Messianic interpretation of the Seventy Weeks. For him, the event that marks the middle of the week was the pollution of the temple by Antiochus which introduced heathen images in the temple.

Click to expand...

He was way out of the ball park. (wrong)

Super Kal said:

**Jerome (A.D. 407) simply summarized the positions of several earlier church fathers.

Click to expand...

Most people want to join a team, safety in numbers?

Super Kal said:

**Augustine (A.D. 407-430) stated that the 70 weeks were fulfilled at Christ’s first advent.

Click to expand...

He was correct.

Super Kal said:

~ Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus did not come out of the School of Alexandria

Click to expand...

Remarkable.

Super Kal said:

~Tertullian and Apollinaris both fell into heresy, so their writings dont count for much

Click to expand...

Too bad.

Super Kal said:

~ Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Origen, Jerome, and Eusebius either studied IN or were at one time taught at the school in Alexandria.

Click to expand...

Remarkable.

Super Kal said:

~ both Julius Hilarianus and Augustine resided and preached in North Africa, and the Christanity they were exposed to was that that was taught in the School of Alexandria, so their interpretation of scripture was greatly influenced by Alexandrian theology.
my sources for this are a bit random, i simply looked up where these individuals came from, and where they live their lives

Click to expand...

I don't mind what the early church fathers thought.

They were around a long time ago.

Like I love reading Polycarp's Epistle to Philippi. And the story of his martyrdom. But even with Polycarp having spoke personally with the one who wrote down Revelation, he can't know who the Antichrist is, or where the 70th week is in our time.

The people who say that the 70th week happened based on the 457 Artaxerxes decree, from 27AD to 34AD are correct.

(I can count the Passover myself based on conjunction when Jesus said "I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer". That was April 7, 30AD. middle of the heptad.)

The people who say that the 70th week is future, is now, are also correct.

(I can count two new decrees to restore Jerusalem in our modern era. These are measured out exactly 434 years, or 62 weeks. Impossible for these events to be a coincidence.)

Both sides can be correct because there are two 490 year periods, two 69 weeks, and two 70th weeks.

Both Isaac Newton, and Levi Eshkol, knew that the cries from these specific stones built by Suleiman of the Ottoman Empire, would be reaching their crescendo right about now.



Isaac Newton made a suggestion while addressing that enigmatic language in Daniel 9. Why say 7 AND 62 weeks until Messiah the Prince. Why not just say 69 weeks? He theorized there was also an application for, not just the first coming of Christ, but for the second coming as well.

From Isaac Newton's commentary:


If he was correct, we would be able to find the new decrees, new commands, correctly appearing at the stated intervals, to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem in our modern time.

They are there.

We are here.

The "time" is fulfilled (again).

Giddy Up.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Super Kal said:

so, I'll just come out and say it at the beginning so everyone knows how i view this, I'm personally a premillennial, futurist, post-trib. i understand there are others who would disagree with me, and im perfectly fine with that, that's why i dont want to limit who can respond. i would like to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions based on what they have searched and studied

in my search and study of eschatology, i've come across an individual named Pastor Bill MacGregor. now he himself is a post trib, pre wrath, however he does have some peculiar beliefs:

~ he believes that we are in Daniel's 70th week. He equates this due to his belief that the signing of the Abraham Accords was the start of Daniel's 70th week. He also thinks the Jared Kushner is the Antichrist, because it was Kushner who instigated the Abraham Accords.

~ he believes that the vaccine is the Mark of the Beast. he takes this stance based on his belief that the use of luciferase in the vaccine is what will trigger the mark once the use 5G is implemented.

~ he believes that the third seal is currently being opened with Biden and his inflation, while the first seal was Kushner promoting peace with the Abraham Accords, and the second seal being the vaccine.

~ because of his beliefs regarding Daniel's 70th week and the Antichrist, he has recently stated that he has been able to calculate when the rapture would take place: roughly 13 months from, IIRC, September of 2023. He has stated the exact date in some of his sermons, which are found exclusively on bit chute

~ in addition to the above, he has also stated that New York is the harlot of Babylon, New York will be destroyed due to a tsunami created by a nuclear explosion, there are 144,000 frozen Jews in Antarctica and will be unfrozen soon to spread the Gospel (i kid you not)

i would love to hear everyone's thought and opinions based on scriptures as to why this pastor may be right or wrong

Click to expand...

The prophecy of the seventy weeks concerns Daniel’s people: “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city…” (Daniel 9:24). God dealt with “Daniel’s people” under the Old Covenant, and this precludes the futurist’s scheme that Christ returns to deal strictly with Daniel’s people again. Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant that advocates and judges matters concerning a people of all nations, not just the descendants of Jacob.


Christ is the mediator of a New Covenant that ended the Old that mediated for Daniel’s people; the epistle to the Hebrews affirms this (Hebrews 10:16-18). The futurist doctrine of a gap has God revert to the mediation of the Old Covenant again, which was limited to Daniel’s people in contrast to the mediation of the Church.

Furthermore, Christ’s mediation concerns a temple built without hands.


Any “continuing desolations” upon the temple in this age must concern the one made without hands, as the lawful standing of the one built by hands ended with Christ’s propitiation. Again Hebrew 10:16-18 establishes this end. Christ affirms the desolations upon the temple commenced with the destruction of Herod’s temple. (I just dealt with affirming this through scripture here.)


Here we have a true connection with Daniel’s seventieth week.


Christ affirms that the “one who makes desolate” follows the abominations erected by the Romans, while Daniel affirms that he meets his end at the time of the end.


What we have affirmed by both Testaments is that the “one who makes desolate” is not an ephemeral individual but an entity that spans a great deal of time, confirming the Historicist methods of interpretation, such as a year-for-a-day principle. And it certainly affirms that there is no gap in the seventy weeks

Douggg said:

Try this approach instead, tranquil.

The day that Jesus returns is what is critical - as a fail-proof way to figure out the end times timeline framework of events.

Jesus return in is in Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

So, backtrack through the verses.

Ezekiel 39:17-20, the Armageddon event.

Ezekiel 39:9 the seven years, the 70th week of Daniel 9.

Ezekiel 39:1-6, the destruction of Gog's army.

So the timeline framework is....

Gog/Magog ..............7years.................Armageddon > Jesus's return.

The seals, the trumpets, the vials... fit within that framework.

Click to expand...

You seem to try to understand things from the Jews point of view, so look at it this way.

This is the start of the Day of the Lord's wrath at the start of the Trumpets on the Feast of Tabernacles (the 'rainy season' Sabbath of Matthew 24:20 kicking off the 'great tribulation').


After 5 months (Revelation 9:5), Gog is defeated at Shushan Purim (the 'winter' Sabbath of Matthew 24:20). Jews think that God/ the messiah/ the antichrist has defeated Gog.

After 7 months, the Jews think that God is displaying His glory, but it is the antichrist 'displaying his glory'.


This is when the abomination of desolation idol is set up in Shinar/ Babylon.

The following is not Armageddon, the 6th Bowl of wrath. It is the 6th Trumpet from Revelation 9:13-21. Apparently, it is the antichrist waging war on behalf of Israel.

The feast that is 'being prepared' is part of the sacrifices for Feast of Tabernacles that would start 1 month from then.

This is the Revelation 10:1 rainbow, displaying the glory to the nations, the 'sign of the son of man after the tribulation of those days' (Matthew 24:29-30).

This is the 2 witnesses gathering Israel, 'gathering the elect immediately after the tribulation of those days' (Matthew 24:29-31)

then it segues into the Ezekiel temple, just like the 2 witnesses 'measuring the temple'.


God will not let His name be profaned any more - it is the job of the 2 witnesses (one of which is 'Yeshua' / 'Joshua'/ 'Jesus' from Zech 4) to punish those that profane God's name.


The 2 witnesses are given power to 'withhold rain' in Revelation 11:6
Then when the antichrist does profane God's name, by 'breaking the covenant' at the 7th Trumpet, God will not allow it and this is the what is happening with the 7 Bowls of wrath.

The 'day of the Lord's wrath' is not 7 years. A day never means 7 years. It can mean 1 year or 1 day.

After the Day (1 year) that starts at the Trumpets on a Feast of Tabernacles, then at the next Feast of Tabernacles, the 2 witnesses are empowered to punish those that profane God's name. 3.5 years later, the antichrist breaks the covenant. God doesn't allow it and punishes the beast with the 7 bowls of wrath.

tranquil said:

You seem to try to understand things from the Jews point of view, so look at it this way.

Click to expand...

Let's say, assuming Jesus's second coming is in the fall when the fall feasts take place, since Jesus's first coming when he was cutoff appears to be at the time of the spring feasts....

That in the fall is when the 7 year 70th week begins when the Antichrist, presumed messiah to the Jews, confirms the Mt. Sinai reading of the law to the nation from the temple mount. Big worldwide televised ceremony.

tranquil said:

This is the start of the Day of the Lord's wrath at the start of the Trumpets on the Feast of Tabernacles (the 'rainy season' Sabbath of Matthew 24:20 kicking off the 'great tribulation').

Ezekiel 38:18 Now on that day when Gog comes against the land of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, My wrath will flare up.

Click to expand...

The 70th week begins right after the Gog/Magog event - in theory, sometime in the fall. And thus the 70th week ends in the fall, seven years later.

Are you with me on my rationale, so far?

Since in Daniel 12:11-12, the great tribulation triggered by the AoD, begins 1335 days (about 3 1/2 years) before Jesus's return.....

That would put the great tribulation beginning in the spring in the middle portion of the seven years.

tranquil said:

This is when the abomination of desolation idol is set up in Shinar/ Babylon.

Click to expand...

Wrong place, tranquil. The AoD statue image (we could considered it an idol, agreed) will be place on the temple mount in Jerusalem - the holy place that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:15.

tranquil said:

God will not let His name be profaned any more - it is the job of the 2 witnesses (one of which is 'Yeshua' / 'Joshua'/ 'Jesus' from Zech 4) to punish those that profane God's name.

Click to expand...

I think you are referring to Ezekiel 39:7 about God not letting His people profane His Holy Name any more.

What that verse is actually referring to is not to the Jews using God's name inappropriately - but when the Jews went into exile, it had the effect of the nations questioning their God's ability to save them from it happening.

You can read about it in Ezekiel 36:19-23.

When God defends Israel against Gog/Magog, it will show to the nations that God has the power to defend Israel.

It has nothing to do with the job of the two witnesses punishing anyone.

__________________________________________________________

I looked at your latest chart. And although incorrect in some aspects, it at least shows some effort on your part to figure things out. You need to rethink your scenario on your chart.

Here are some things you can do to make your chart closer to being right...

The 5 months at the beginning, I am assuming that you are basing on the five months of the tormenting locust 5th trumpet judgment. If so, that is in the wrong place. Those particular five months are somewhere within the 1335 days.

(personally, I would not attempt to put the 5th trumpet on the chart you have, because it is only one of 6 trumpet judgements in Revelation 9 - so people are going to want to see the placement of all 6 trumpet judgments - and your chart is not sized for that).


So remove the five months from your chart. And move the 7 months all the way to the left - of Israel burying the dead of Gog's army. Type - 7 months of burying the dead * with a footnote *of Gog's army.

When the 7 years begin, for the first three years of it the world will be saying peace and safety, thinking it has entered the messianic era - following Gog/Magog and the Antichrist as the perceived messiah.

So, put the 1260 days (the blue bar) to start the chart, i.e. move it all the way to the left. As the two witnesses will be testifying that the Antichrist is not the true messiah, and that the Jews should not trust him.

There will be some overlap of the 1260 blue bar with the 1335 days (the green bar) and the 1290 days (the purple bar) - which those two you have right as is ! Don't change the green bar and the purple bar. Just move the blue bar all the way to the left.

During that overlap, the two witnesses will be battling the Antichrist gone bad, just as they will have been warning the Jews about, who will have become the beast and the AoD setup on the temple mount.

The two witnesses battling the beast (with the first four trumpet judgments) will give the Jews some time of divine protection as they flee out of Jerusalem to the mountains for safety.

tranquil, your chart...


tranquil, here is what a restart of your chart should look something like....

Super Kal said:

when it concerns Daniel's 70th week, i dont base it on "popular eschatology".
i base it on scripture

Click to expand...

Excellent.
What scripture Teaches the 70th week follows a multi thousand year gap from the 69th?

I’m well aware of “popular eschatology” that teaches this, but I’m unaware of any scripture that does.

Perhaps you could point me to it?

parousia70 said:

Excellent.
What scripture Teaches the 70th week follows a multi thousand year gap from the 69th?

Click to expand...

It doesn't.

There's not a multi thousand year gap from the 69th.

But there's two 490 year periods, two 70th weeks.

The need for two comings of Christ force it to be true.

Price action makes for market commentary.

parousia70 said:

I’m well aware of “popular eschatology” that teaches this, but I’m unaware of any scripture that does.

Click to expand...

What I'm talking about is not the “popular eschatology”. I'm not talking about the Hal Lindsey type deal where they want to bring the first century's 70th week, or half of that week, down to our end time now.

I can show how there's evidence of two 490 year periods based on multiple decrees to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem.

parousia70 said:

Perhaps you could point me to it?

Click to expand...

How I explain it to you, without showing the empirical, would be different than how I would show other people here. I assume you also would think Daniel 8 is historical? Daniel 9 is still an answer to the question posed in Daniel 8 when Daniel fell ill..

When Daniel finished his prayer in Chapter 9, he said this:


Gabriel's reply:


Consider the word and understand the vision.

There is no vision in Daniel 9.

Daniel and Gabriel are still talking about the vision of the previous chapter in Daniel 8 when Daniel fell ill. So Daniel 9 is an answer to that vision, an answer to the question posed in Daniel 8:


How long?

How long is it going to be until the Antichrist is revealed, and Christ comes to destroy him but not by human hand.

Daniel 9 contains the answer! Embedded within that enigmatic text conceals the detailed timing for when our end time Antichrist shall destroy many. When the horn power shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, taking his seat in the Temple of God, and when he shall be broken—but by no human hand. It is the same timing for Christs' second arrival when the Antichrist will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

But first the 70 weeks will be "cut off", (the Hebrew word chathak), from the larger prophetic time period for Daniel's original people.

Try this instead:


Can you get the idea that something else, something different, might have happened if the Old Time Jews would have redeemed the 70 weeks?

What might have happened if Jerusalem WAS willing and DID let Jesus gather them as a hen gathers it's chicks.

Daniel 9 had to be written in a way so as to include a Primary application, and a Secondary application, of the coming of Messiah.

Embedded within that tricky text is a provision for two comings of Messiah. That's why the 7 AND 62 weeks, all of it based on decrees, commands, by various kings and a president, to restore Jerusalem. It's the only place that specifically spells out the timing of the coming of Christ. So as a student of apocalyptic prophecy, I would be on alert anytime I found a decree to restore Jerusalem. Especially when they're appearing in time at the stated intervals from Daniel 9.

You have made mention of constantly moving the goalposts, when a date setter is wrong. I'm not going to say what I think it is today, but I'll come back and tell you when it passes, if I'm wrong.

The man who's image I posted signed the second decree exactly 62 weeks after the first command. He died of a heart attack one month after it went live.

The thing I'm talking about has been known by others for sometime.

Remember Interplanner?

DofJ?

He's the first guy I ever heard about it from, around 2014?

And now it's not all that far off.

I'm getting painted into a corner.

We're right here.

It's spooky man.

tranquil said:

You seem to try to understand things from the Jews point of view, so look at it this way.

This is the start of the Day of the Lord's wrath at the start of the Trumpets on the Feast of Tabernacles (the 'rainy season' Sabbath of Matthew 24:20 kicking off the 'great tribulation').

Ezekiel 38:18 Now on that day when Gog comes against the land of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, My wrath will flare up.​

After 5 months (Revelation 9:5), Gog is defeated at Shushan Purim (the 'winter' Sabbath of Matthew 24:20). Jews think that God/ the messiah/ the antichrist has defeated Gog.

After 7 months, the Jews think that God is displaying His glory, but it is the antichrist 'displaying his glory'.

Ezekiel 39:12 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and it will bring them renown on the day I display My glory, declares the Lord GOD.​

This is when the abomination of desolation idol is set up in Shinar/ Babylon.

The following is not Armageddon, the 6th Bowl of wrath. It is the 6th Trumpet from Revelation 9:13-21. Apparently, it is the antichrist waging war on behalf of Israel.

17 And as for you, son of man, this is what the Lord GOD says: Call out to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you, a great feast on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of the mighty and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as though they were rams, lambs, goats, and bulls—all the fattened animals of Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing, you will eat fat until you are gorged and drink blood until you are drunk. 20 And at My table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, of mighty men and warriors of every kind,’ declares the Lord GOD.
​

The feast that is 'being prepared' is part of the sacrifices for Feast of Tabernacles that would start 1 month from then.

This is the Revelation 10:1 rainbow, displaying the glory to the nations, the 'sign of the son of man after the tribulation of those days' (Matthew 24:29-30).

21I will display My glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the judgment that I execute and the hand that I lay upon them.
​

This is the 2 witnesses gathering Israel, 'gathering the elect immediately after the tribulation of those days' (Matthew 24:29-31)

Ezekiel 39
22From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God. 23And the nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity, because they were unfaithful to Me. So I hid My face from them and delivered them into the hands of their enemies, so that they all fell by the sword. 24I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and transgressions, and I hid My face from them. 25Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: Now I will restore Jacob from captivity and will have compassion on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for My holy name. 26They will forget their disgrace and all the treachery they committed against Me, when they dwell securely in their land, with no one to frighten them. 27When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them out of the lands of their enemies, I will show My holiness in them in the sight of many nations.
​

then it segues into the Ezekiel temple, just like the 2 witnesses 'measuring the temple'.

Ezekiel 43:7 The LORD said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place where I will rest my feet. I will live here forever among the people of Israel. They and their kings will not defile my holy name any longer by their adulterous worship of other gods or by honoring the relics of their kings who have died.​

God will not let His name be profaned any more - it is the job of the 2 witnesses (one of which is 'Yeshua' / 'Joshua'/ 'Jesus' from Zech 4) to punish those that profane God's name.

Zechariah 14:16Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.​

The 2 witnesses are given power to 'withhold rain' in Revelation 11:6

They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
​

Then when the antichrist does profane God's name, by 'breaking the covenant' at the 7th Trumpet, God will not allow it and this is the what is happening with the 7 Bowls of wrath.

The 'day of the Lord's wrath' is not 7 years. A day never means 7 years. It can mean 1 year or 1 day.

After the Day (1 year) that starts at the Trumpets on a Feast of Tabernacles, then at the next Feast of Tabernacles, the 2 witnesses are empowered to punish those that profane God's name. 3.5 years later, the antichrist breaks the covenant. God doesn't allow it and punishes the beast with the 7 bowls of wrath.

Click to expand...

What confusion and example of being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. The wrath of God is confined to the last trumpet when Christ returns to give his reward to the saints.


Such a declaration, that the time of his wrath comes only upon the last and seventh trumpet, makes the sixth seal merely a flash forward of what is to come. No doubt with those with eyes to see and ears that hear, that the first six seals do not represent the wrath of God and that the Church must endure such trials because of its fallen condition in the time of the end, predicted by the NT (Matthew 5:13, 24:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:1–12; 1 Timothy 4:1–3; Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 3:1-17).

Christ declares these fallen conditions to the era of the church of Sardis and warns us of the trial to come in the era of Philadelphia:

God has not appointed the Church to his wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). The evidence presented in the seventh trumpet upholds that the trial that follows the era of Philadelphia is not his wrath and establishes that being kept from the hour of temptation is aid and not the “rapture.”

The futurist scheme cannot endure the evidence of Christ’s testimony by his mediation of the New Covenant that the Church is judged by Christ and must endure the trials illustrated by the seven seals, with the exception of the last trumpet.


It is at the last trumpet that the saints are caught up with Christ in the clouds, which is illustrated in the accounts of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12) and supported by 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Jerryhuerta said:

What confusion and example of being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. The wrath of God is confined to the last trumpet when Christ returns to give his reward to the saints.

Click to expand...

Jerry, I may not be understanding what you are saying correctly because you haven't included a chart (like tranquil and I made).

But the wrath of God cannot be confined to the actual 24 hour day that Jesus descends down to earth from heaven.

There are the vials of God's wrath in Revelation 16 that must take place before that actual 24 hour day.

Where I think you are going wrong is that you are not considering Revelation 10:7, correctly.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The days of the voice of the seventh angel, those days are the time/times/half time when Satan's demise takes place. The sounding of the seventh angel (his trumpet) begins those days. He sounds, then Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down to earth.

It is during the time/times/half time that the vials of God's wrath take place.

Take a look at my chart. I show the days of the voice of the seventh angel on it. Which in those days the vials of God's wrath will take place.

Jerryhuerta said:

It is at the last trumpet that the saints are caught up with Christ in the clouds, which is illustrated in the accounts of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12) and supported by 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Click to expand...

Jerry, take a look at my chart again.

Right before the seventh angel sounds (blows his trumpet), the two witnesses are called up to heaven.

An argument could be made that the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-17 could take place when the seventh angel blows his trumpet.... which his trumpet blast begins the days of the voice of the seven angel, the time/times/half time... during which time the vials of God's wrath will be poured out.

That would meet all the criteria of the last trumpet in regards to the rapture/resurrection. And not being appointed to God's wrath.

Douggg said:

Jerry, take a look at my chart again.

Right before the seventh angel sounds (blows his trumpet), the two witnesses are called up to heaven.

An argument could be made that the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-17 could take place when the seventh angel blows his trumpet.... which his trumpet blast begins the days of the voice of the seven angel, the time/times/half time... during which time the vials of God's wrath will be poured out.

That would meet all the criteria of the last trumpet in regards to the rapture/resurrection. And not being appointed to God's wrath.



View attachment 319704

Click to expand...

Actually, you are making my point without the need for charts (like I stated previously, I find your charts amusing). In the “days” of the seventh angel, “there shall be time no longer.” We aren’t talking about a mere 24 hours' timing of the final plagues. You presume too much when you read.

And you continue to sidestep the evidence that the Revelation concerns Christ’s mediation and not a return to the mediation concerning Daniel’s people, the latter being the mediation that the seventieth week falls under. The trial that follows the Philadelphia era must be under Christ's mediation and to the Church of the Laodicean era for their apostasy and the sounding of the seventh trumpet means their time is up and the time has arrived to judge those who obey not the gospel (1 Peter 4:17).

Again, the preterist and futurist’s schemes are confusing and examples of being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. The wrath of God is confined to the last trumpet when Christ returns to give his reward to the saints.

Jerryhuerta said:

Actually, you are making my point without the need for charts (like I stated previously, I find your charts amusing). In the “days” of the seventh angel, “there shall be time no longer.” We aren’t talking about a mere 24 hours' timing of the final plagues. You presume too much when you read.

Click to expand...

Jerry, please show "your" chart, which clarifies what is your otherwise confusing written statements.

The expression in Revelation 10:6 "there shall be time no longer" is just a way of saying "there shall be no more delay".

The wrath of God is confined to the last trumpet when Christ returns to give his reward to the saints.

Click to expand...

The above is what I am pointing out as you being unclear. Are you talking about a expanded timeframe, and not the actual 24 hour day which Jesus descends to earth from heaven ?

Regarding the seventh angel,

(1) there is the days of the voice of the seven angel, and...
(2) the seventh angel blowing his trumpet, a sharp sudden event.

Jerryhuerta said:

Again, the preterist and futurist’s schemes are confusing and examples of being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. The wrath of God is confined to the last trumpet when Christ returns to give his reward to the saints.

Click to expand...

Jerry, you are being insulting to others, instead of presenting a clear presentation of your view in the form of a chart. Please just put together a chart that clearly places where the seven vials of God's wrath would go, and the days of the voice of the seventh angel.

Dave Watchman said:

When Daniel finished his prayer in Chapter 9, he said this:

"The man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice."
Gabriel's reply:

“O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.
Consider the word and understand the vision.

There is no vision in Daniel 9.

Daniel and Gabriel are still talking about the vision of the previous chapter in Daniel 8 when Daniel fell ill. So Daniel 9 is an answer to that vision, an answer to the question posed in Daniel 8:

“For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”

Click to expand...

Well, you got that part right, Dave. It appears as though you have been paying attention to some of what I have been saying.

Dave Watchman said:

How long?

Click to expand...

The vision is for 2300 days. Given that the daily sacrifice has not been done since 70 D, the 2300 day vision will span from the time the daily sacrifice begins again until Jesus returns to destroy the little horn person.

Dave Watchman said:

There's not a multi thousand year gap from the 69th.

But there's two 490 year periods, two 70th weeks.

Click to expand...

Dave, there are not two 490 year periods, because otherwise that would mean Jesus being cutoff twice.

Just go with there being a gap between the 69th week ending and the 70th week to account for the time of the gentiles.

Douggg said:

Jerry, you are being insulting to others, instead of presenting a clear presentation of your view in the form of a chart. Please just put together a chart that clearly places where the seven vials of God's wrath would go, and the days of the voice of the seventh angel.

Click to expand...

My exegesis is only confusing to you because your presuppositions are unscriptural. The futurist’s presupposition that the Church and Israel are two separate mediations is not scriptural. It’s this presupposition that they built the unorthodox view that Christ returns to deal strictly with Daniel’s people again under the wrath of the seventieth week. This is an open thesist or Arminian perception that God’s Providence is contingent on man’s will, in defiance of Romans 9:16.

Again, the wrath of God is confined to the time of the sounding of the seventh angel’s trumpet. The Revelation is Christ’s mediation to the Church so the Church goes through the trials depicted by the seven seals, with the exception of the seventh and last trumpet (1 Peter 4:17).

There is no insult intended, just a reproof and correction of erroneous presuppositions and the error that is inherent.

Jerryhuerta said:

My exegesis is only confusing to you because your presuppositions are unscriptural. The futurist’s presupposition that the Church and Israel are two separate mediations is not scriptural. It’s this presupposition that they built the unorthodox view that Christ returns to deal strictly with Daniel’s people again under the wrath of the seventieth week. This is an open thesis or Arminian perception that God’s Providence is contingent on man’s will, in defiance of Romans 9:16.

Click to expand...

Jerry, just clarify that your term of "when Jesus returns" means the actual 24 hour day, on which, He descends down from heaven to earth or not?