Plants in Extreme Charismatic Meetings?

Lost4words · Aug 13, 2022

Der Alte said:
Don't know. Not relevant to the post I was responding to.

Lost4words said: ↑
The only people that fell over in the presence of Jesus were those possessed.
When He healed they didnt writhe about on the floor or jerk in all ways etc. No, they immediately were healed, got up / walked etc...

So, you dont know. Obviously they werent believers of Jesus Christ..

Der Alte · Aug 13, 2022

Lost4words said:
So, you dont know. Obviously they werent believers of Jesus Christ..

Do you know?

frank sears · Aug 13, 2022

Unfortunately, what is called the Pentecostal movement, was developed by folks tired of walking by faith and not by sight, and who decided (without permission from God), to try to create a pseudo-Pentecost. The result was a lot of persons yielding to demonic spirits and calling it God. This movement has almost taken over the church, this is where the falling, being drunk, howling like animals, rolling and jerking, comes from. The Bible supports none of it. It is terribly sad, for many confessing Christians are actually worshiping Satan, unaware.

NBB · Aug 13, 2022

frank sears said:
Unfortunately, what is called the Pentecostal movement, was developed by folks tired of walking by faith and not by sight, and who decided (without permission from God), to try to create a pseudo-Pentecost. The result was a lot of persons yielding to demonic spirits and calling it God. This movement has almost taken over the church, this is where the falling, being drunk, howling like animals, rolling and jerking, comes from. The Bible supports none of it. It is terribly sad, for many confessing Christians are actually worshiping Satan, unaware.

That is dangerous talk friend, just the little pentecostal church i go to, there is people being free, lives transformed for good and the presence of God is sensed a lot. If pentecostals are being bashed a lot its because they are hot in the spirit and the devil hates that. There is also wolf among sheep who only wants money or who knows what, but can't judge a tree because some fallen apples that are not even of the tree.

ViaCrucis · Aug 13, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Well one of the things I teach is the redemption of the conscience and the intuition.

The Word of God is internal not external, unless you don't believe in His indwelling presence.

Scripture is pretty clear about this.

Or do you believe that when the canon was sealed the Holy Spirit stopped indwelling people?

I'm not talking exclusively about Scripture. The external word includes Scripture, but it is also the proclamation of the Gospel itself.

I don't believe the Canon "was sealed", as a Lutheran I believe the Canon is still technically "open"; though it is mostly--functionally--closed with the remaining question over the Deuterocanonical books.

But that's simply not what I'm talking about anyway. I'm talking about the works of God external to ourselves. The word is external to me, because I hear the word, I believe the word, I receive the word; and therefore the word cuts into me, reads me, pierces me and knows my inward parts. And the Holy Spirit holds me and keeps me in faith, in and with the word. But the word is still outside of me.

No matter how strongly I may feel about something, I don't get to just use my feelings as a source of divine authority.

-CryptoLutheran

trophy33 · Aug 14, 2022

Watchman1 said:
I saw that in a Kenneth Hagin meeting where a couple of guys were laughing and rolling around the floor. I saw the rest of the crowd just looking on at the spectacle, unaffected.

I have witnessed the Holy Spirit moving in a meeting, and everyone in that meeting were visibly affected, mainly weeping, getting on their knees and getting right with God. You didn't get just one or two rolling around the floor like crazy idiots with everyone else looking on. It makes me to know that when the Holy Spirit moves in a meeting, He moves on everyone to a greater or lesser degree, and there are no passive spectators.

Yes, these meetings are designed to be very emotional, with music, shouted proclamations, in a hypnotic style. To affect, at least emotionally, as many people as possible.

People who are not listening, like bodyguards, can stay out of the influence.

Carl Emerson · Aug 14, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
I'm not talking exclusively about Scripture. The external word includes Scripture, but it is also the proclamation of the Gospel itself.

I don't believe the Canon "was sealed", as a Lutheran I believe the Canon is still technically "open"; though it is mostly--functionally--closed with the remaining question over the Deuterocanonical books.

But that's simply not what I'm talking about anyway. I'm talking about the works of God external to ourselves. The word is external to me, because I hear the word, I believe the word, I receive the word; and therefore the word cuts into me, reads me, pierces me and knows my inward parts. And the Holy Spirit holds me and keeps me in faith, in and with the word. But the word is still outside of me.

No matter how strongly I may feel about something, I don't get to just use my feelings as a source of divine authority.

-CryptoLutheran

OK - do you believe that the indwelling presence of of the Holy Spirit is in fact the Word which is Jesus???

Secondly the peace that passes understanding - is that something you feel ???

Lost4words · Aug 14, 2022

Der Alte said:
Do you know?

What did the Pharisees do to Jesus? Do you think they believed in Him? Did they not want Him dead?

Jipsah · Aug 14, 2022

Peter Popov. An old friend of mine outted him.

Jipsah · Aug 14, 2022

NBB said:
how you really know benny hinn is fake?

Watch him.

Jipsah · Aug 14, 2022

Watchman1 said:
I will acknowledge that Benny Hinn has an authentic healing ministry when verified medical evidence is produced to show that serious medical conditions such as cancer and heart disease are totally healed as the result of his prayers.

I'm waiting for that first amputee.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 14, 2022

Jipsah said:
I'm waiting for that first amputee.

Don't hold your breath!

I watched the 2 parts of the Strange Fire Conference Questions and Answers. Very informative. It shows that the Charismatic movement has changed out of sight from when I first became a Christian in an AOG church in 1966. In those days, there were none of those wackadoodle manifestations or idiotic behaviour. Also, the Gospel was preached on Sunday nights, and there was expository preaching on Sunday mornings. I will never forget Rev. Trevor Chandler preaching on Isaiah 53.

But now what was seen as the lunatic fringe in the late 1960s, has now become the mainstream and has brought the Charismatic movement into total disrepute and changed it into a monstrous caricature of what started as a genuine group of people who discovered a much joyful way of worshiping and serving God in a traditional mainstream church, as I discover when I attended a meeting in a local Presbyterian Charismatic youth group. In 1979 I had the pleasure of fellowshiping with an Anglican Charismatic group, these were real Christians who stuck to the Gospel, and nothing like the wackadoodles who have hijacked the Charismatic label these days.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 14, 2022

frank sears said:
Unfortunately, what is called the Pentecostal movement, was developed by folks tired of walking by faith and not by sight, and who decided (without permission from God), to try to create a pseudo-Pentecost. The result was a lot of persons yielding to demonic spirits and calling it God. This movement has almost taken over the church, this is where the falling, being drunk, howling like animals, rolling and jerking, comes from. The Bible supports none of it. It is terribly sad, for many confessing Christians are actually worshiping Satan, unaware.

The early mainstream Pentecostals were genuine Christian believers who honoured the Gospel of Christ and sincerely practiced their belief that the Holy Spirit had restored His gifts back to the church. Of course with every new movement there were the lunatic fringe and the frauds, such as Alexander Dowie who taught that he was Elijah and that all medical professionals were evil. He paid the price for that erroneous notion through the death of his own daughter from a preventable sickness.

I was converted in an AOG church through a Gospel message based on David and Goliath, and then discipled by an experienced Christian who introduced me to Puritan literature. A couple of years later I joined a mission church in another city, pastored by a mature man who had a background in Methodist Holiness, and who believed in being a man of prayer and of the Word. When he preached, he preached straight from the Scriptures, and would not permit any wackadoodle manifestations in his church. He was so strict about discipleship that other Pentecostal ministers didn't like him and did not include him in their ministers' fraternal group.

So the first person who discipled me was a Reformed Pentecostal, and the mature pastor was a Methodist Holiness Pentecostal. Modern wackadoodle Charismatics would accuse those men of having a demon because of their absolute rejection of the modern Charismatic version of the moving of the so-called Holy Spirit in the meetings.

Having said that, I am thankful to the Lord, that after the death of my mature pastor, He rescued me from the Pentecostal movement in 1978 before it started going into the Kundalini lunacy that is so prominent these days.

Guojing · Aug 16, 2022

Watchman1 said:
It is a proven fact that no seriously sick or disabled people actually reach the stage. They are diverted by the ushers to a separate room at the venue and are never prayed for by Hinn. The same happened at the Reinhard Bonnke crusades. Actual verified medical evidence of actual healings is lacking, and many who were declared healed at the meetings went home and subsequently died. Benny Hinn knows he can't heal anyone, yet he is still declaring people healed and is still collecting big sums of money from people in his meetings with the promise that if they sow their seed offering of money they will receive their healing and become wealthy.

After he supposedly repented, he is still going on line asking for the same amount of seed faith offering that he asked before. So his "repentance" was just talk, not followed up by action.

He has gone to the idiotic and ridiculous length of publicly putting a curse on all those who criticise his ministry. Who does he think he is? I can imagine God seeing it and saying, "Yeah, right!"

If Elijah can ridicule the prophets of Baal by asking them if their god had gone on vacation, or is stuck on the toilet, then I have no problem in calling Benny Hinn a total fraud, offering things he cannot demonstrate.

Andre Kole has a book in the 1980s about this, I remember reading it then

Miracles or Magic: Kole, Andre: 9780890815793: Amazon.com: Books

Guojing · Aug 16, 2022

Jipsah said:
I'm waiting for that first amputee.

Is Bill Johnson still preaching the same "God always wants you healed", after his wife recent passing away from cancer?

Has his views towards this changed in any way?

The Liturgist · Aug 16, 2022

Watchman1 said:
Todd White would get words of knowledge for people in the meeting while holding his iPad in his hands. Guess where he got his words of knowledge from? I think that Stephen Furtick did the same. I don't know how they can think they are genuinely hearing from the Holy Spirit when they know that they are reading social media information pages about those people? Is there something missing in the conscience areas of their minds?

That’s called Hot Reading, as opposed to Cold Reading; both are techniques practiced by “psychics.”

The Liturgist · Aug 16, 2022

By the way, I am not a cessationist - I believe the ancient charisms still exist, at a minimum, among Eastern and Oriental Orthodox monks based on my experiences with them, and I think it possible they exist elsewhere as well (perhaps Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran monasteries, maybe in some Quaker meetings, I don’t really know as I haven’t had a chance to explore).

However, in my experience, the charisms were subtle and functional; they lacked the Wagnerian aspects we see with people “being slain in the Spirit” or the “Toronto Blessing,” or the practices of the Snake Handling Pentecostals of the Appalachians. They occurred outside the context of the sacred liturgy, and thus everything was done decently and in order.

Some Pentecostals do have good ideas, however. The Yoido Full Gospel Church in South Korea operates a Prayer Village right on the edge of the DMZ, from which the congregation can pray “full bore into the North” to quote an American minister who gave a talk about the church when it was visited by the Anglican vicar Fr. Peter Owen Jones in the spectacular BBC documentary series Around the World in 80 Faiths.

It is innovative ideas like that which causes Pentecostalism to earn my respect, because what better way to confront the diabolical aspects pf North Korea then to set up a facility for prayer aimed squarely at it?

ViaCrucis · Aug 16, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
OK - do you believe that the indwelling presence of of the Holy Spirit is in fact the Word which is Jesus???

No. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus. But Jesus, the Eternal and Uncreated Word Himself, is present in and with the Holy Spirit. Christ is present in us through the Holy Spirit, but Christ gives Himself to us through the external word, through Word and Sacrament.

Secondly the peace that passes understanding - is that something you feel ???

That peace exists and is real regardless of how we feel--because our feelings are fallible, mutable, and fickle. It's the promise of God's peace which is declared to us in the Gospel that I cling to, not to feelings. It is cleaving to God in faith, even when all my feelings are broken, all my thoughts are injured, and all my works are wretched that I find the peace of God. I am naked and afraid and tossed around by the world, and yet here through the word God declares His peace, and calls me His child, and in Christ I know I have Someone who will never forsake me.

-CryptoLutheran

David's Harp · Aug 16, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
No. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus. But Jesus, the Eternal and Uncreated Word Himself, is present in and with the Holy Spirit. Christ is present in us through the Holy Spirit, but Christ gives Himself to us through the external word, through Word and Sacrament.

That peace exists and is real regardless of how we feel--because our feelings are fallible, mutable, and fickle. It's the promise of God's peace which is declared to us in the Gospel that I cling to, not to feelings. It is cleaving to God in faith, even when all my feelings are broken, all my thoughts are injured, and all my works are wretched that I find the peace of God. I am naked and afraid and tossed around by the world, and yet here through the word God declares His peace, and calls me His child, and in Christ I know I have Someone who will never forsake me.

-CryptoLutheran

Hi ViaCrucis. May I ask you a couple of questions? Is the peace that passes all understanding different from the peace that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit?
And in relation to feelings, are the fruits of the Holy Spirit attributes that can give rise to feelings?
I am interested in your view on these points, and would appreciate any response.

ViaCrucis · Aug 16, 2022

David's Harp said:
Hi ViaCrucis. May I ask you a couple of questions? Is the peace that passes all understanding different from the peace that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit?
And in relation to feelings, are the fruits of the Holy Spirit attributes that can give rise to feelings?
I am interested in your view on these points, and would appreciate any response.

My understanding would be that the fruit of peace is more to do with peace expressed in our relationships with others. In the same sense that the Lord teaches in the Beatitudes "Blessed are the peacemakers" and St. Paul in Romans 12 instructs us in "living peaceably with all, insofar as it is up to you". Peace is a fruit of the Spirit, one of the things that the Spirit bears forth in our lives by His ongoing work to conform us to the image of Christ. In the same way that love here is not the feeling of love, or the love of God but the love which we are called to exhibit toward our neighbor. Likewise with joy, patience, kindness, etc; it's not about the feeling of joy, but bearing the fruit of joy; it's about exhibiting patience, being kind in our actions, in our dispositions, in our attitudes, etc.

The invitation of God is that He has made and declared His peace toward us, and He calls us now to live that same kind of peace out in the world. Forgiving those who have sinned against us, not retaliating but turning the other cheek, loving our enemy, blessing and not cursing, and all which the Lord has taught and commanded us.

-CryptoLutheran

Plants in Extreme Charismatic Meetings?

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