Plants in Extreme Charismatic Meetings?

David's Harp

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Carl Emerson

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God glorifies Himself and evidences the kingdom through His word.
Only a false gospel relies on external signs and urgings.

Yes but the true gospel will have signs.

14 Later He appeared to the eleven disciples themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reprimanded them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen from the dead. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
 
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Carl Emerson

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My view of that kind of power is that there has to be a wider result other than the person having an experience where they cannot stand. There has to be a Gospel reason why the power of the Holy Spirit affects a person in that way.

For example, if the person is sick, and the power comes upon that person as the result of prayer, then if there is enough power to affect their ability to stand, then there would be enough power to heal them instantly. When I saw the video clip of Kenneth Copeland praying for the guy in the wheelchair and the guy falling backwards supposedly under the power of the Holy Spirit, the question is, if there was enough power to do that to the guy, why wasn't there the power to raise the guy out of the wheelchair, able to walk perfectly? It raises the question of whether the power of God was really present there or whether the guy merely overbalanced and fell out of his wheelchair.

There was an event where a woman was prayed for by Benny Hinn, and she fell supposedly under the power. Then she pointed to her husband who was in a wheelchair and asked for prayer for him. Hinn ignored her and passed by the husband in the wheelchair without even attempting to pray for him. The question is, did Benny Hinn know that in spite his speech making and promises, he knew he could not have healed that man? It seemed that he didn't want to take the risk of failure and getting egg on his face because he couldn't demonstrate what he was claiming.

In the ministry of Maria Woodworth-Etter, there were reports of unconverted people up to a mile from her tent meeting being slain in the Spirit and getting back up converted to Christ. That sounds more credible to me, than someone getting slain in the spirit every Sunday without any change in their sanctification. It is the same with Anglican and Catholic teenagers going through the Confirmation ceremony and getting hands laid on them by the Bishop, and then showing no change in the godless lifestyle they had before it.

That is the difference between the Spirit and the flesh. When people are affected by the power of the Spirit, there is a radical change in their walk with Christ and their level of sanctification and commitment to Him, and it is a one-time event causing a major transformation in them. When it is in the flesh, nothing changes, and the person has to come back each Sunday to get their experiential "fix".

Yes - any real encounter with the Holy Spirit will be transforming.

Jesus saw the same thing with the ten lepers though - only one came back to give thanks.

That didn't indicate that the other nine healings were not genuine.
 
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trophy33

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When you see bodyguards to be unaffected by what is going on with the first rows in the audience, then it seems strange.

When you see the rows more far away from cameras to be unaffected, then its strange too.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The only people that fell over in the presence of Jesus were those possessed.

Not so...

10 And it happened that when the priests came from the holy place, the cloud filled the house of the Lord, 11 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
 
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Der Alte

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The only people that fell over in the presence of Jesus were those possessed.
When He healed they didnt writhe about on the floor or jerk in all ways etc. No, they immediately were healed, got up / walked etc
...
John 18:3-6
(3) Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
(4) Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
(5) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
(6) As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
 
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David's Harp

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If you say that falling back is something from the devil, you are in trouble, better to just not think anything and not make conclusions without really knowing.
Please can you explain the good instances of falling back in line with what the Bible teaches.
 
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Receivedgrace

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Yes but the true gospel will have signs.

14 Later He appeared to the eleven disciples themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reprimanded them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen from the dead. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
The long ending of Mark is not a good place to form doctrine. I would caution you against drinking poison or playing with serpents. Do not tempt the Lord God.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The long ending of Mark is not a good place to form doctrine. I would caution you against drinking poison or playing with serpents. Do not tempt the Lord God.

OK should we snip that bit out ???
 
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Carl Emerson

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Typical no thought pre-programmed response.
Keeping the long ending of Mark in context is probably more than you want to endure.

Actually I have had more time as a bible student than you might want to shake a stick at...

I come from the angle - has God watched over the process of making sure we have the Scripture He intended or not ???

The passage mentions the extreme to give His followers confidence that any attack they may experience as His servant is not beyond His control.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I guess a problem I see with these threads is that the cessationists love them because they see it as supporting their false theology which concludes that all claims of a gift operating are demonic.
The proof that a true gift of the Spirit is operating in a person is that there is fruit from it. The purpose of spiritual gifts is to build up the body of Christ involving greater faith in Christ through exhortation, comfort, and enlightenment into what God's Word actually means, especially during times of trial, discouragement and persecution. If a person has an experiential manifestation such as jerking, shaking, falling down, rolling around the floor and nothing else, what is the point of that other than a mere display of the flesh?
 
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Carl Emerson

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The proof that a true gift of the Spirit is operating in a person is that there is fruit from it. The purpose of spiritual gifts is to build up the body of Christ involving greater faith in Christ through exhortation, comfort, and enlightenment into what God's Word actually means, especially during times of trial, discouragement and persecution. If a person has an experiential manifestation such as jerking, shaking, falling down, rolling around the floor and nothing else, what is the point of that other than a mere display of the flesh?

Your response does not seem to address the point I raised.
 
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When you see bodyguards to be unaffected by what is going on with the first rows in the audience, then it seems strange.

When you see the rows more far away from cameras to be unaffected, then its strange too.
I saw that in a Kenneth Hagin meeting where a couple of guys were laughing and rolling around the floor. I saw the rest of the crowd just looking on at the spectacle, unaffected.

I have witnessed the Holy Spirit moving in a meeting, and everyone in that meeting were visibly affected, mainly weeping, getting on their knees and getting right with God. You didn't get just one or two rolling around the floor like crazy idiots with everyone else looking on. It makes me to know that when the Holy Spirit moves in a meeting, He moves on everyone to a greater or lesser degree, and there are no passive spectators.
 
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Your response does not seem to address the point I raised.
We need to carefully examine the New Testament Scriptures to see how the Holy Spirit really moves and what He does and why He does it. What I see is that He comes to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. He also works to encourage, comfort and edify the body of Christ. Also, He has come to guide us into all truth, and to enhance our faith in Christ. These are the things that we know when the Holy Spirit is moving amongst us in a gathering. We know that the Holy Spirit is moving through a preacher when the Word he preaches comes alive to us and we see Christ in it and our faith in Him rises to a new level.

But if the preacher is behaving like a gibbering idiot like I saw Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland in meetings, then I don't see any Holy Spirit in that.
 
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Carl Emerson

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We need to carefully examine the New Testament Scriptures to see how the Holy Spirit really moves and what He does and why He does it. What I see is that He comes to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. He also works to encourage, comfort and edify the body of Christ. Also, He has come to guide us into all truth, and to enhance our faith in Christ. These are the things that we know when the Holy Spirit is moving amongst us in a gathering. We know that the Holy Spirit is moving through a preacher when the Word he preaches comes alive to us and we see Christ in it and our faith in Him rises to a new level.

But if the preacher is behaving like a gibbering idiot like I saw Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland in meetings, then I don't see any Holy Spirit in that.

Frankly I don't waste my time looking at any preachers on the internet.

My focus is to walk in what I have learned and hopefully enthuse others.

So many seen to gain heaps of knowledge about the 'road' but few talk of actually walking the talk in real life.
 
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Lost4words

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Not so...

10 And it happened that when the priests came from the holy place, the cloud filled the house of the Lord, 11 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.

Nothing to do with healing though.
 
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Lost4words

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John 18:3-6
(3) Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
(4) Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
(5) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
(6) As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

And why did they fall over ;)
 
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Der Alte

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And why did they fall over ;)
Don't know. Not relevant to the post I was responding to.
Lost4words said:
The only people that fell over in the presence of Jesus were those possessed.
When He healed they didnt writhe about on the floor or jerk in all ways etc. No, they immediately were healed, got up / walked etc...​
 
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