What is wrong with Calvinism ?

John Mullally

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My thoughts about this are that God has decided for us to pray to Him and through our prayer intervene in the world. But I don't think God is bound to our prayers, but He does want us to pray for Him to act. Even so He acts the way He decides in each situation, sometimes without prayer and sometimes because of prayer. Some things He just won't do unless we pray.
There are two poles: At one end there are those who say we know God's will by what happens and at the other end there are those, like myself, who see God's complete willingness to help, but many failures attributed to man (such as lack of faith, prayer, etc). Probably, most Christians try to straddle the middle, but that has its own problems.

Here is a good clue. In Jesus time, how many people did Jesus say to that it was not God's will to heal them. And to how many who did recover, did He say "be it done unto you as you have believed", "your faith has made you whole", "do not doubt", "I am willing", etc. Remember also, Jesus says if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
 
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zoidar

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@Clare73 said that limited atonement is NOT limiting the quantity of the atonement, but the extent of it —that it [pretty obviously] does not mean Christ paid for the sins of those who end up paying for it themselves.

Sorry I got that about quantity wrong. What I would say is that something is "paid" for you is not enough to be saved. The payment needs to applied on you. Then you say: "If it's not applied to you, you will pay again for what is already paid".

How I see this is that redemption of sin has a price and that is death. Jesus pays the price for our redemption through his sacrifice. So the cost for redemption is paid, but the effect of sin remains until a person has been redeemed, given a new heart. So the unbeliever will suffer eternal consequences/effects of sin, even a redemption has been paid for him.
 
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QvQ

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Matthew 18:18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 18: 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Jesus saves. And Matthew 18 is about salvation and judgement.

Yes, even though Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world, He has set some limits on Satan.
The problem with God abandoning this world to Satan as ruler (sovereign) of this world is to deny the intrinsic good (God) in this world. Most people are like Job, simply living the good life whether they are saved or not. That is God's will and His mercy. As with Job, those people have some protection and guidance from God. Even the unregenerate can appreciate the majesty and beauty of the Creator through the goodness of His works.

Satan was involved in the Resurrection as an agent of God.
 
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zoidar

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Limited atonement means that while Christs sacrifice would have been sufficient to cover the sins of every person ever born, His death and resurrection is specific to/for the elect of God (Those God gave into His Hand), and only those people.

As R. L. Dabney has said, "Christ's sacrifice has purchased and provided for the effectual calling of the elect, with all the graces which insure their faith, repentance, justification, perseverance, and glorification.

It simply is arguing against universal salvation (Hitler etc going to heaven).

Most Christians believe in limited atonement.

Few, if any believe that everyone ever born is going to heaven regardless of what they did or believed in their life, and if Jesus paid the price for Hitler's sins, then Hitler would be in heaven. In the end, we believe in 1 of 3 things - that everyone goes to heaven regardless of what they did or believed in their life, that Jesus' death on the cross was ineffective (Hitler's sins were just too much for even Jesus' blood to cover), or that atonement is of a limited nature (only for the elect).

Most believe it's limited as a result. It's just common sense really. "Whole world" just means some people out of the Jews and Gentiles both, not every single individual ever born.

Hi there Hazel!

I think you are oversimplifying things. I will copy paste what I wrote to Mark Quayle.

"I think of Christ's sacrifice as a payment for sin, a sacrifice that can pay off any sin. When you receive Christ your individual sins are put on Christ. IOW your personal sins are paid/forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ at the very moment you receive the Holy Spirit.

I will tell a story. There was this village of poor people in dept. They owed more money than they could earn by their low income jobs. So this friendly stranger comes by one day. He puts an unlimited amount of money on the villagers' "help the poor - fund". Now the villagers act differently. Some take money from the fund to cancel their dept, others think the unlimited deposit is a myth, for who would do such a thing, right? Therefore some villagers go free and others are held bound in dept. Still the fund with the unlimited deposit belongs to the whole village.

So the atoning sacrifice is unlimited (for all mankind), the effect of the atoning sacrifice (to the individual) is limited to those who believe."

Make of that what you will. :)
 
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John Mullally

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Matthew 18: 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Jesus saves. And Matthew 18 is about salvation and judgement.
I don't disagree. But realize that Matthew 18:11 was not included in either of the passages I asked you about.
The problem with God abandoning this world to Satan as ruler (sovereign) of this world is to deny the intrinsic good (God) in this world. Most people are like Job, simply living the good life whether they are saved or not. That is God's will and His mercy. As with Job, those people have some protection and guidance from God.
Again, God did not abandon the world to Satan. Adam's sin and man's continued sin permit him to operate.

Ephesians 4:26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.
The world is under the sovereign will of God or else we would all be in hell. Even the unregenerate can appreciate the majesty and beauty of the Creator through the goodness of His works.
We know God from His word.
Satan was involved in the Resurrection as an agent of God.
Satan opposed Jesus at ever step - fortunately for us Satan was fooled.

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. 6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
 
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zoidar

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No, I am plainly saying that you do not take those Scriptures at their word, and it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate they do not mean what they clearly state.

I think they clearly state what I believe. I think it's up to both of us to prove that Scripture says what we believe. If you want to prove it says what you believe, you need to prove it, and not rely on that it's "clear". Again, that is what we are discussing, what it clearly states.

Actually, the empty claim and what remains to be shown is that they do not mean what they clearly state.
There is nothing to be shown regarding their meaning, it is self-evident.

Both Jesus: "No one can see (know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God unless he is born again,"
and Paul: "The man without the Spirit (not born again) does not accept the things of God because they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them"
could not be more clear in their statements of the spiritual impotency of man than they are in John 3:3-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14.

If you do not agree, you must Biblically demonstrate your assertion, or it is without merit and just an "empty claim."

You seem to have a lot vested in their plain words not being true, and looking for ways around them.
What's that about?

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
— John 3:3

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
— John 3:5

Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
— John 3:7


I think Jesus is referring to the same thing three times, what needs to happen to be saved. We need to be born again to be saved. Here I believe "being born of water and Spirit" in v. 5 is the same as "being born again" in v. 3 och v. 7. "You can't see/know/be aquainted with the kingdom of God unless you are born again. And you can't enter the kingdom of God unless you are born again. V. 3, 5, 7 explains the same thing, we need to be born again by the Holy Spirit to be saved.

I don't think Jesus explains it like a manual: First you are born again and you see the kingdom. Then you are born of water and Spirit and you enter the kingdom. And then ending with saying we need to be born again.

I will have to say that in v. 7 Jesus sums up what he said in v. 3 and v. 5, all this happens by being born again (of water and Spirit), you are saved, you enter/see/know/get aquainted with the kingdom.

So now it's your turn, if you like, to prove this wrong.
 
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zoidar

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Says who?
The merit of the work of the divine Son of God would be infinite.
Until it is applied, it doesn't exist as far as the sinner is concerned.
Why can limited atonement not mean limited in the application of the atonement?

Sorry I misunderstood what you meant.

And is "false dilemma" not just an "empty claim" with no Biblical demonstration to support your assertion?

Yes, an empty claim, but we can discuss this.

That's what I said. . .it's merit is infinite, while it's application is limited.

The funny thing here is that we can almost agree, but we mean very different things.
 
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QvQ

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We know God from His word.
The world is corrupted but there is intrinsic goodness in the world, however clouded by sin. God is sovereign. If man and devil were in charge, the world would have been chaotically destroyed long ago as Satan is the agent of destruction. God rules.

Satan opposed Jesus at ever step - fortunately for us Satan was fooled.
According to God's will.

It was not Satan's plan that Christ redeemed mankind. By opposing Jesus, Satan was an agent in the redemption of the World. Satan would have been working against his own designs to leave Jesus unopposed.

The Resurrection is the very heart of Christianity. Without the Resurrection Jesus is merely a prophet. Satan was instrumental in the death and resurrection of Christ. Sin and the salvation were plain for all men to see. Satan was an agent in the fulfillment of God's plan, according to God's will.
 
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Clare73

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I think they clearly state what I believe. I think it's up to both of us to prove that Scripture says what we believe. If you want to prove it says what you believe, you need to prove it, and not rely on that it's "clear". Again, that is what we are discussing, what it clearly states.
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
— John 3:3
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
— John 3:5
Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
— John 3:7
I think Jesus is refering to the same thing three times,
Agreed.
what needs to happen to be saved. We need to be born again to be saved. Here I believe "being born of water and Spirit" in v. 5 is the same as "being born again" in v. 3 och v. 7. "You can't see/know/be aquainted with the kingdom of God unless you are born again. And you can't enter the kingdom of God unless you are born again. V. 3, 5, 7 explains the same thing, we need to be born again by the Holy Spirit to be saved.
And in the process, he states a principle regarding the spiritual nature of the unregenerate: you can't even see (know, understand, in order to be saved) unless you are first born again.
It's the same principle Paul states in 1 Corinthians 2:14--you're spiritually blinder than a bat without the Holy Spirit in the rebirth.
I don't think Jesus explains it like a manual: First you are born again and you see the kingdom.
Correct. . .he simply states the principle regarding the unregenerate--they are spiritually impotent.
Then you are born of water and Spirit and you enter the kingdom. And then ending with saying we need to be born again.

I will have to say that in v. 7 Jesus sums up what he said in v. 3 and v. 5, all this happens by being born again (of water and Spirit), you enter/see/know/get aquainted with the kingdom.

So now it's your turn, if you like, to prove this wrong.
 
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QvQ

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Instead, prayer is asserting earthly permission for heavenly interference. Prayer is earth giving heaven authorization to intervene in the affairs of earth as heaven has previously stated it would. That permission is granted based on your legal position and rights.
Prayer, for me, has become a continual awareness of God. One prayer.
God is always on my mind.

The statement you posted doesn't make sense to me unless I am seeking power in the world through prayer, then, presumably, as a legal right, God would be mine to command. The choice would be power of God or power of Satan, almost asserting because Satan is ruler, that makes Satan equal to God.

This is a very foreign concept to me, if I understand you correctly.

God is the power and the glory forever.
 
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John Mullally

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The world is corrupted but there is intrinsic goodness in the world, however clouded by sin. God is sovereign. If man and devil were in charge, the world would have been chaotically destroyed long ago as Satan is the agent of destruction. God rules.

According to God's will.

It was not Satan's plan that Christ redeemed mankind. By opposing Jesus, Satan was an agent in the redemption of the World. Satan would have been working against his own designs to leave Jesus unopposed.

The Resurrection is the very heart of Christianity. Without the Resurrection Jesus is merely a prophet. Satan was instrumental in the death and resurrection of Christ. Sin and the salvation were plain for all men to see. Satan was an agent in the fulfillment of God's plan, according to God's will.
There is this repeating pattern I see when trying to engage Calvinists. Every scriptural argument is dismissed with Calvinistic clichés like God rules, all is pre-determined by God's decrees, Salvation is of the Lord, and God's will is always done (i.e. can only be ascertained by what happens).

So it doesn't matter that:
  1. Paul says that God desires all to be saved per 1 Timothy 2:4. Because that cannot be true or everyone would be saved per God's will is always done.
  2. Paul says that Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all men per 1 Timothy 2:6. Because that cannot be true or everyone would be saved per God's will is always done.
  3. Paul says he became weak to win the weak in 1 Corinthian 9:22. Because that is hyperbole - Salvation is of the Lord.
  4. Paul statement on the importance of preaching of the Gospel by man in Romans 10:14-15. Because that too is hyperbole - Salvation is of the Lord.
  5. Jesus's promise that we receive when we ask in faith per Mark 11:22-24. Because no man can qualify to say that prayer if they don't know God's will. And God's will cannot be known without knowing what actually happens in the future. Also that promise is academic because God's will is always done. And worse yet, it seems you are trying to rule over God.
  6. A promise is given that we receive faith by hearing the word of God per Romans 10:17. Because attempting to receive by claiming a promise presumes on God's Sovereignty.
  7. A promise of salvation (i.e. remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit) is given to those who repent in response to the Gospel per Acts 2:38-39. Because it is God who saves us (Salvation is of the Lord). We are told to re-read John 3:3-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 from the Calvinistic point of view.
  8. That the "prayer of a righteous man avails much". That point is academic because its all been decreed.
  9. That 1 John 1:9 instructs believers to confess sin. Because all future sin was wiped away when God saves us.
 
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QvQ

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Paul says that God desires all to be saved per 1 Timothy 2:4. Because that cannot be true or everyone would be saved
1) Calvin agreed God desires all men be saved. It is stated in his commentaries.

Paul says that Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all men per 1 Timothy 2:6. Because that cannot be true or everyone would be saved.
2) Mark, Zoidar and Clare are addressing that, if I understand them correctly

3 - 4) As for Calvinist and preaching the Gospel, public education was originally so all men could read the Word of God. The Bible is required reading for all Calvinist.

Jesus's promise that we receive when we ask in faith per Mark 11:22-24. Because no man can qualify to say that prayer if they don't know God's will. And God's will cannot be known without knowing what actually happens in the future. And it is academic because God's will is going to be done.
5) All Christians would agree "Ask and ye shall receive."

A promise of salvation (i.e. remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit) is given to those who repent in response to the Gospel
6 - 7) The order of those has been the subject of a discussion. We don't agree on the order.

That the "prayer of a righteous man avails much". Because that verse merely reflects on what God pre-destined.
8)Yes, but a righteous man's prayer does not grant permission to God

That 1 John 1:9 instructs believers to confess sin. Because all future sin was wiped away when God saves us.
9) Confession after baptism is a sacrament of the Catholic Church, as I understand it. The only two sacraments of Calvinism is baptism and the Lords Supper. (Not certain here)

Hope I have this in order. Bit of a muddle perhaps.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Sorry I got that about quantity wrong. What I would say is that something is "paid" for you is not enough to be saved. The payment needs to applied on you. Then you say: "If it's not applied to you, you will pay again for what is already paid".

How I see this is that redemption of sin has a price and that is death. Jesus pays the price for our redemption through his sacrifice. So the cost for redemption is paid, but the effect of sin remains until a person has been redeemed, given a new heart. So the unbeliever will suffer eternal consequences/effects of sin, even a redemption has been paid for him.
For myself, (not @Clare73 ), I don't like the sound of even, 'sufficient', nevermind 'quantity'. I get what they are trying to say by that, I think, in that whoever believes, Christ paid their sin, but I'm strictly that Christ would have suffered more if he had paid sufficiently for absolutely everyone; and so therefore, if he paid sufficiently for everyone, he paid for everyone's sin. If some (most) people end up paying themselves, then it's pretty plain to me that we have double payment going on, which to me just doesn't add up. But by 'sufficient [quantity] the point is the power of God —the FACT of Christ's death and atonement. That much (the fact of Christ's death and atonement being infinite in quality) is not at all the same as saying that his atonement is sufficient for all (at least to my mind). But anyhow... I'm glad you don't believe in double payment.
 
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zoidar

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Agreed.

And in the process, he states a principle regarding the spiritual nature of the unregenerate: you can't even see (know, understand, in order to be saved) unless you are first born again.
It's the same principle Paul states in 1 Corinthians 2:14--you're spiritually blinder than a bat without the Holy Spirit in the rebirth.
Correct. . .he simply states the principle regarding the unregenerate--they are spiritually impotent.

The problem I see is that you interpret what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 to have to do with being born again and whether the natural man can repent or not. But that is not something I see in those verses. Paul is describing how it is for the natural man and how it is for the Spiritual man, not how the natural man can become a Spiritual man.

The thing we disagree on then is not if we can see the kingdom of God without being reborn, there we agree you can't, but whether we are reborn after och before repentance. I say rebirth after repentance, you say rebirth before repentance.
 
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Fervent

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For myself, (not @Clare73 ), I don't like the sound of even, 'sufficient', nevermind 'quantity'. I get what they are trying to say by that, I think, in that whoever believes, Christ paid their sin, but I'm strictly that Christ would have suffered more if he had paid sufficiently for absolutely everyone; and so therefore, if he paid sufficiently for everyone, he paid for everyone's sin. If some (most) people end up paying themselves, then it's pretty plain to me that we have double payment going on, which to me just doesn't add up. But by 'sufficient [quantity] the point is the power of God —the FACT of Christ's death and atonement. That much (the fact of Christ's death and atonement being infinite in quality) is not at all the same as saying that his atonement is sufficient for all (at least to my mind). But anyhow... I'm glad you don't believe in double payment.
The whole notion of an exacting amount, as if God was doing some kind of cosmic moral accounting doesn't seem to fit with the Biblical picture of atonement. It's not as if God is score keeping, and to put some finite value(no matter how large) on the death of Christ is baffling. Christ's death is of infinite value, so no matter how many it is applied to the storehouse doesn't run any more empty.
 
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John Mullally

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1) Calvin agreed God desires all men be saved. It is stated in his commentaries.
Calvin and people like me agree that God desires all to be saved, and not all are. We diverge after that. Calvin sees God having the power to save all and choosing not to. Non-Calvinist Evangelicals see God requiring man to respond in faith and repentance to the Gospel, with many men choosing not to.

Its disturbing that anyone go to hell. Calvin's position is especially disturbing, as he has God pre-destining many to hell before they are even born. Its a mystery how that can be construed as just.

Calvin also sees God decreeing every man's action (good & bad) well before hand. It would seem that that would make God a party to man's every transgression - also disturbing.
2) Mark, Zoidar and Clare are addressing that, if I understand them correctly
Good point.
3 - 4) As for Calvinist and preaching the Gospel, public education was originally so all men could read the Word of God. The Bible is required reading for all Calvinist.
My point is that passages stressing man's role are downplayed in Calvinism.
5) All Christians would agree "Ask and ye shall receive."
Glad we agree. Among Calvinists: scripture promises are almost always injected with so much "if it be thy will", you wonder why the promises were ever inserted in the Bible.
6 - 7) The order of those has been the subject of a discussion. We don't agree on the order.
The fact that Peter shows there is something man can do to facilitate receiving Salvation is what matters, not the order (i.e. repentance per Acts 2:38-39). That point is contrary to what Calvinists proclaim (Salvation is strictly of the Lord).
8)Yes, but a righteous man's prayer does not grant permission to God
Given what is written on prayer, the fact that I believe God wants to bless all men, but with men not co-operating, it makes sense for me to see prayer as granting permission to God. In any case, the NT and especially Jesus have so much to say about the importance of prayer.
9) Confession after baptism is a sacrament of the Catholic Church, as I understand it. The only two sacraments of Calvinism is baptism and the Lords Supper. (Not certain here)
1 John 1:9 and James 5:16 show that believers are to confess sins to God and one another - independent of any sacrament status. Not everything is a sacrament - although some would like to make it a sacrament to give into the offering plate.
Hope I have this in order. Bit of a muddle perhaps.
Good response!
 
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zoidar

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For myself, (not @Clare73 ), I don't like the sound of even, 'sufficient', nevermind 'quantity'. I get what they are trying to say by that, I think, in that whoever believes, Christ paid their sin, but I'm strictly that Christ would have suffered more if he had paid sufficiently for absolutely everyone; and so therefore, if he paid sufficiently for everyone, he paid for everyone's sin. If some (most) people end up paying themselves, then it's pretty plain to me that we have double payment going on, which to me just doesn't add up. But by 'sufficient [quantity] the point is the power of God —the FACT of Christ's death and atonement. That much (the fact of Christ's death and atonement being infinite in quality) is not at all the same as saying that his atonement is sufficient for all (at least to my mind). But anyhow... I'm glad you don't believe in double payment.

I think of Christ's sacrifice as a payment for sin, a sacrifice that can pay off any sin. When you receive Christ your individual sins are put on Christ. IOW your personal sins are paid/forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ at the very moment you receive the Holy Spirit.

I will tell a story. There was this village of poor people in dept. They owed more money than they could earn by their low income jobs. So this friendly stranger comes by one day. He puts an unlimited amount of money on the villagers' "help the poor - fund". Now the villagers act differently. Some take money from the fund to cancel their dept, others think the unlimited deposit is a myth, for who would do such a thing, right? Therefore some villagers go free and others are held bound in dept. Still the fund with the unlimited deposit belongs to the whole village.

So the atoning sacrifice is unlimited (for all mankind), the effect of the atoning sacrifice (to the individual) is limited to those who believe.
 
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QvQ

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Calvin and people like me agree that God desires all to be saved, and not all are. We diverge after that. Calvin sees God having the power to save all and choosing not to. Non-Calvinist Evangelicals see God requiring man to respond in faith and repentance to the Gospel, with many men choosing not to.
"Calvinists have their own doctrine of prevenient grace, which they identify with the act of regeneration and which is immediately and necessarily followed by faith. Because of the necessity of salvation following this dispensation of prevenient grace, it is called irresistible grace." (wikipedia)

Westminster Confessional IX
Of Free-Will - Westminster Confession of 1646 - Study Resources

Its disturbing that anyone go to hell. Calvin's position is especially disturbing, as he has God pre-destining many to hell before they are even born. Its a mystery how that can be construed as just.
"The will of God is the supreme rule of righteousness, so that everything which he wills must be held to be righteous by the mere fact of his willing it. Therefore, when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, ‘Because he pleased." (John Calvin)

*Also, in the Book of Job, God refuses to answer "Why." The answer to "Why" is "Just Because"

Given what is written on prayer, the fact that I believe God wants to bless all men, but with men not co-operating, it makes sense for me to see prayer as granting permission to God. In any case, the NT and especially Jesus have so much to say about the importance of prayer.
1) God wants to bless all men (chapter and verse?)
2) Men are not cooperating?
3) Prayer grants permission to God? (whose prayer and permission to do what?)

1 John 1:9 and James 5:16 show that believers are to confess sins to God and one another - independent of any sacrament status
A person should confess sins to God but I doubt anyone would entertain a recitation of my sins. "Shock your friends, confess your sins at the next party."
 
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John Mullally

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"Calvinists have their own doctrine of prevenient grace, which they identify with the act of regeneration and which is immediately and necessarily followed by faith. Because of the necessity of salvation following this dispensation of prevenient grace, it is called irresistible grace." (wikipedia)

Westminster Confessional IX
Of Free-Will - Westminster Confession of 1646 - Study Resources
Unsurprisingly, there is no explicit mention of irresistible grace in scripture. Instead, Paul contradicts that notion by saying that God's grace can be frustrated (Galatians 2:21). Next.
"The will of God is the supreme rule of righteousness, so that everything which he wills must be held to be righteous by the mere fact of his willing it. Therefore, when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, ‘Because he pleased." (John Calvin)
More from Calvin: The sum of the whole is this - since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence;
C.S. Lewis had this strong opinion of the "doctrine of Total Depravity"
“On the other hand, if God's moral judgement differs from ours so that our 'black' may be His 'white', we can mean nothing by calling Him good; for to say 'God is good', while asserting that His goodness is wholly other than ours, is really only to say 'God is we know not what'. And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him. If He is not (in our sense) 'good' we shall obey, if at all, only through fear - and should be equally ready to obey omnipotent Fiend. The doctrine of Total Depravity - when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing - may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship.
- The Problem of Pain, pp. 28 - 29”
1) God wants to bless all men (chapter and verse?)
1 Timothy 2:4-6; Jeremiah 29:11; Ezekiel 18:32; Ezekiel 33:11; John 3:16
2) Men are not cooperating?
Romans 3:23
3) Prayer grants permission to God? (whose prayer and permission to do what?)
Jesus shows how to receive whatever we ask for. Mark 11:22-24; John 14:12-14; John 15:7-8
 
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zoidar

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That's what I said. . .it's merit is infinite, while it's application is limited.

"I think of Christ's sacrifice as a payment for sin, a sacrifice that can pay off any sin. When you receive Christ your individual sins are put on Christ. IOW your personal sins are paid/forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ at the very moment you receive the Holy Spirit.

I will tell a story. There was this village of poor people in dept. They owed more money than they could earn by their low income jobs. So this friendly stranger comes by one day. He puts an unlimited amount of money on the villagers' "help the poor - fund". Now the villagers act differently. Some take money from the fund to cancel their dept, others think the unlimited deposit is a myth, for who would do such a thing, right? Therefore some villagers go free and others are held bound in dept. Still the fund with the unlimited deposit belongs to the whole village.

So the atoning sacrifice is unlimited (for all mankind), the effect of the atoning sacrifice (to the individual) is limited to those who believe."
 
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