Prayers for the dead

RileyG

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While this view is in keeping with the confessional Lutheran position, this is precisely the reason why we practice closed Communion; Scripture cautions and admonishes us regarding the dangers of receiving in an unworthy manner. Scripture treats this as very serious indeed; we are to protect those who don't understand the real presence and the means of grace that are conveyed in the Sacrament.
not to go off topic
What about the congregation's spiritual health and receiving Communion in an unworthy manner? per regarding closed Communion?

(I know a confessional Lutheran who believes the Eucharist is just a symbol for Christ's Body and Blood. I'm sure she was taught incorrectly).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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not to go off topic
What about the congregation's spiritual health and receiving Communion in an unworthy manner? per regarding closed Communion?

(I know a confessional Lutheran who believes the Eucharist is just a symbol for Christ's Body and Blood. I'm sure she was taught incorrectly).
All in the Congregation received instruction, and have been examined and confirmed. While we do not know what is in their hearts, they do know what we teach; what they have been taught.

The Church preaches the Gospel and rightly administers the sacraments. Those who chose to eat and drink judgement upon themselves do so not because the Church is being carelessly inclusive, but do so despite the best efforts of the Church.

Those who openly deny that the Eucharist is the very body and blood of Christ, and impart the forgiveness of sins on those who repent and receive the sacrament are excluded from the eucharist. (Yes, that is excommunication).

Pastor will be starting a Matins series this fall for our early service, with readings and preaching from the 1580 unaltered Book of Concord; most have only studies the Catechism. We take our theology and practice very seriously.

Staying on topic: which is why we retain the ancient prayers of the Christian funeral rite.
 
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The Liturgist

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All in the Congregation received instruction, and have been examined and confirmed. While we do not know what is in their hearts, they do know what we teach; what they have been taught.

The Church preaches the Gospel and rightly administers the sacraments. Those who chose to eat and drink judgement upon themselves do so not because the Church is being carelessly inclusive, but do so despite the best efforts of the Church.

Those who openly deny that the Eucharist is the very body and blood of Christ, and impart the forgiveness of sins on those who repent and receive the sacrament are excluded from the eucharist. (Yes, that is excommunication).

Pastor will be starting a Matins series this fall for our early service, with readings and preaching from the 1580 unaltered Book of Concord; most have only studies the Catechism. We take our theology and practice very seriously.

Staying on topic: which is why we retain the ancient prayers of the Christian funeral rite.

Beautiful. Your parish is just amazing. Please please please start streaming on YouTube… I love watching your services on Facebook.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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MarkRohfrietsch

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All in the Congregation received instruction, and have been examined and confirmed. While we do not know what is in their hearts, they do know what we teach; what they have been taught.

The Church preaches the Gospel and rightly administers the sacraments. Those who chose to eat and drink judgement upon themselves do so not because the Church is being carelessly inclusive, but do so despite the best efforts of the Church.

Those who openly deny that the Eucharist is the very body and blood of Christ, and impart the forgiveness of sins on those who repent and receive the sacrament are excluded from the eucharist. (Yes, that is excommunication).

Pastor will be starting a Matins series this fall for our early service, with readings and preaching from the 1580 unaltered Book of Concord; most have only studies the Catechism. We take our theology and practice very seriously.

Staying on topic: which is why we retain the ancient prayers of the Christian funeral rite.
Update:
Since we have implemented Eucharist every Sunday and Holy Day (in accord with our confessions), in person attendance has decreased as we have some in the congregation that despise the Eucharist. Against the best judgement of some of us, we will not be implementing two services, as we feel doing so would divide the congregation. Instead we will be having Mass on the 1st, 2nd, and 4th Sundays, with Matins on 3rd and 5th Sundays, unless there is a feast or festival on that day, then it is a Eucharistic Service.
 
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The Liturgist

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Update:
Since we have implemented Eucharist every Sunday and Holy Day (in accord with our confessions), in person attendance has decreased as we have some in the congregation that despise the Eucharist. Against the best judgement of some of us, we will not be implementing two services, as we feel doing so would divide the congregation. Instead we will be having Mass on the 1st, 2nd, and 4th Sundays, with Matins on 3rd and 5th Sundays, unless there is a feast or festival on that day, then it is a Eucharistic Service.

It sounds like you are justifiably unhappy about that.
 
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Zachm531

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Lutherans do include prayers for the dead in our Funeral rites; does it affect the outcome of the immortal soul of departed? No.

Our Funeral rites almost always contain the same prayer as is found in the Catholic and Anglican traditions, the "Requiem" asking that God grant them and all the faithful departed eternal rest etc...

There are other prayers in the commendation, the committal and the blessing of the grave where we ask that God keep the remains safe until the resurrection.

Why?, some might ask if the prayers have no influence on the outcome?
Main reason is that these prayers are, for us, a confession of faith, and reinforcement of the promises of the Gospel regarding Christ's victory over death by His death for us.




So this is not exactly what The Revelation of St. John shows us. What you are quoting above is under the old covenant; after Christs sacrifice, and assentation things are different; the dead can speak, but eagerly await the resurrection; they keep asking "how long".

As we confess in the preface to the Eucharistic celebration derived directly from Scripture:

Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify Your glorious name, evermore praising You and saying... (The Sanctus)
Do you believe that, since God is outside of time, our prayers for a soul(now deceased) could have been efficacious in the final moments of their life?
 
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The Liturgist

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Do you believe that, since God is outside of time, our prayers for a soul(now deceased) could have been efficacious in the final moments of their life?

I myself like that idea and see it as one more reason to pray for the dead.
 
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RileyG

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Do you believe that, since God is outside of time, our prayers for a soul(now deceased) could have been efficacious in the final moments of their life?
Amen. I believe!
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Do you believe that, since God is outside of time, our prayers for a soul(now deceased) could have been efficacious in the final moments of their life?
While certainly possible, the fact that Scripture is silent regarding this, leads me to believe that these prayers are more for us than for the recently departed.

Kind of like prayers to the saints; we hold that it is certainly possible for the saints to hear our prayers, but apart from tradition, Scripture also remains silent. We do know that our Lord Jesus does hear our prayers, as does our Heavenly Father when we pray through Christ as our intercessor. Why take a chance. We do, however, commemorate and venerate the saints. They are part of the "cloud of witnesses" of which the Bible speaks.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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It sounds like you are justifiably unhappy about that.
Pastor and I and a portion of our Congregation are indeed justifiably unhappy about this arrangement. Pastor will still commune any of our members any time if it is requested.

Covid with the attendance restrictions gave us the opportunity to implement every Sunday Eucharist to accommodate everyone. We thought we had succeeded, now due to diminishing attendance and revenues, the congregation made us accommodate those who despise frequent communion. So far, at Vespers, there is 20% more people than at the Eucharistic Liturgy.

From Luther's Christian Questions and Answers: Luther’s Small Catechism by Dr. Martin Luther
19. What should admonish and encourage a Christian to receive the Sacrament frequently?
First, both the command and the promise of Christ the Lord. Second, his own pressing need, because of which the command, encouragement, and promise are given.

20. But what should you do if you are not aware of this need and have no hunger and thirst for the Sacrament?

To such a person no better advice can be given than this: first, he should touch his body to see if he still has flesh and blood. Then he should believe what the Scriptures say of it in Galatians 5 and Romans 7. Second, he should look around to see whether he is still in the world, and remember that there will be no lack of sin and trouble, as the Scriptures say in John 15–16 and in 1 John 2 and 5.

Third, he will certainly have the devil also around him, who with his lying and murdering day and night will let him have no peace, within or without, as the Scriptures picture him in John 8 and 16; 1 Peter 5; Ephesians 6; and 2 Timothy 2.

Note: These questions and answers are no child’s play, but are drawn up with great earnestness of purpose by the venerable and devout Dr. Luther for both young and old. Let each one pay attention and consider it a serious matter; for St. Paul writes to the Galatians in chapter six: “Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.”​
 
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The Liturgist

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Pastor and I and a portion of our Congregation are indeed justifiably unhappy about this arrangement. Pastor will still commune any of our members any time if it is requested.

Covid with the attendance restrictions gave us the opportunity to implement every Sunday Eucharist to accommodate everyone. We thought we had succeeded, now due to diminishing attendance and revenues, the congregation made us accommodate those who despise frequent communion. So far, at Vespers, there is 20% more people than at the Eucharistic Liturgy.

From Luther's Christian Questions and Answers: Luther’s Small Catechism by Dr. Martin Luther
19. What should admonish and encourage a Christian to receive the Sacrament frequently?
First, both the command and the promise of Christ the Lord. Second, his own pressing need, because of which the command, encouragement, and promise are given.

20. But what should you do if you are not aware of this need and have no hunger and thirst for the Sacrament?

To such a person no better advice can be given than this: first, he should touch his body to see if he still has flesh and blood. Then he should believe what the Scriptures say of it in Galatians 5 and Romans 7. Second, he should look around to see whether he is still in the world, and remember that there will be no lack of sin and trouble, as the Scriptures say in John 15–16 and in 1 John 2 and 5.

Third, he will certainly have the devil also around him, who with his lying and murdering day and night will let him have no peace, within or without, as the Scriptures picture him in John 8 and 16; 1 Peter 5; Ephesians 6; and 2 Timothy 2.

Note: These questions and answers are no child’s play, but are drawn up with great earnestness of purpose by the venerable and devout Dr. Luther for both young and old. Let each one pay attention and consider it a serious matter; for St. Paul writes to the Galatians in chapter six: “Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.”​

Perhaps your pastor could celebrate a brief low mass for those of you who “get the picture” on days when you have Matins? Otherwise I assume he is using the reserved Sacrament, and my view is that it is desirable to preserve that for the elderly. I hope by the way you’re not going to get rid of Vespers due to the contumacy of your flock regarding the Eucharist. I believe that three critical indicators of the spiritual health of a congregation are frequent, but not casual, communion, frequent confession (ideally auricular but even as a group) and heavy attendance of the Divine Office, relative to the total size of the congregation.

One thing I have experienced as a layman that I didn’t like is pressure to receive the Eucharist when I do not feel spiritually prepared. However, this does not mean I oppose the weekly celebration of the Eucharist, on the contrary, with less frequent celebration I would feel more pressure to partake regardless of whether or not I was prepared.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Perhaps your pastor could celebrate a brief low mass for those of you who “get the picture” on days when you have Matins? Otherwise I assume he is using the reserved Sacrament, and my view is that it is desirable to preserve that for the elderly. I hope by the way you’re not going to get rid of Vespers due to the contumacy of your flock regarding the Eucharist. I believe that three critical indicators of the spiritual health of a congregation are frequent, but not casual, communion, frequent confession (ideally auricular but even as a group) and heavy attendance of the Divine Office, relative to the total size of the congregation.

One thing I have experienced as a layman that I didn’t like is pressure to receive the Eucharist when I do not feel spiritually prepared. However, this does not mean I oppose the weekly celebration of the Eucharist, on the contrary, with less frequent celebration I would feel more pressure to partake regardless of whether or not I was prepared.
We considered it, but number 1, the logistics do not work. He teaches a Bible Study during Sundayschool prior to service. 2, it would further divide the congregation.

Did you know that there was very little "separatist" attitude in Quebec prior to Vatican II. The Catholic Mass was always in Latin so English speaking people and French speaking people attended Mass at the same time. After Vatican II Mass was in English and French, and each cultural group went to their own services; parish and society was divided by Vatican II. The Catholic Church is almost done in Quebec, but the division remains. Heterodox or not, they need to worship together at the same time, despite their heterodoxy. We can only pray that they don't infect the orthodox members. This same group are also the social-Marxist "woke" group, that really don't fit in with Confessional Lutheranism, but remain because like "woke" society, they are entitled to what ever they deem is their entitlement.
 
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PloverWing

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those who despise frequent communion

I'm curious. Have they said why they don't like frequent communion? Is it that they prefer the Matins service, or that they really want communion to be less frequent?

The only time I've heard people voice a preference for less frequent communion was a group of Baptists who said that communion was less special to them if it was too frequent. This makes some sense from a symbolic/Zwinglian point of view, if a person is thinking of communion as a symbol that's made more effective by how we feel about it, but I wouldn't expect Lutherans to think of the Sacrament in that way.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I'm curious. Have they said why they don't like frequent communion? Is it that they prefer the Matins service, or that they really want communion to be less frequent?

The only time I've heard people voice a preference for less frequent communion was a group of Baptists who said that communion was less special to them if it was too frequent. This makes some sense from a symbolic/Zwinglian point of view, if a person is thinking of communion as a symbol that's made more effective by how we feel about it, but I wouldn't expect Lutherans to think of the Sacrament in that way.
Here are their reasons...
  1. "we went from 4 times a year" (back in the days of the circuit rider; none actually remembers this) to once a month, then twice a month now every Sunday; this is too often!
  2. Q. Why is it too often? A. "It's not special when you do it every week".
  3. Q. You do know that you may abstain if you feel you should? A. "I don't like sitting through something I am not participating in.
  4. The service is too long, it is boring.
  5. "I'm saved by faith, so I don't need it".
  6. I am not comfortable telling family and friends who I invite that they can not receive the Sacrament, so I will not invite them. (we explain that in the bulletin).
  7. I get board doing the same thing every Sunday. (one member said she finds matins boring too.)
I could go on and on and on, but those are the main reasons. These reasons are coming from people who were instructed and catechized in our Synod, and most in our Church. The previous pastor fought for over 10 years to restore weekly communion, we are currently doing better, they had communion offered on the 1st, 3rd and 5th Sundays and festivals; Matins on the 2nd and 4th. Some noticed this change and are pushing back.

I discussed with Pastor, and we agree, no more concessions as now they expect Pastor and Elders to cave in on everything else. Much of our Council fail to show humility and Charity, and refuse to hear God's word or heed the confessions; to the point where the want to micromanage Pastor and Elders, to the point where thy feel that they collectively and exclusively in our congregation hold the office of the Keys even to the extent that they believe it is their authority, not Pastors, to excommunicate.

The last Church I belonged to, their council had much the same attitude regarding frequency, and demanded that we allow open communion. Pastor and we Elders refused and continued to follow Synod and the Confessions. The Church split with the majority going to non liturgical reformed protestant evangelical communities. We closed that Church two years later.

Council has it in their minds that we can sustain for 5 years, so that is where we are headed as well.

There are more reasons, but these are the main ones.
 
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The Liturgist

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Here are their reasons...
  1. "we went from 4 times a year" (back in the days of the circuit rider; none actually remembers this) to once a month, then twice a month now every Sunday; this is too often!
  2. Q. Why is it too often? A. "It's not special when you do it every week".
  3. Q. You do know that you may abstain if you feel you should? A. "I don't like sitting through something I am not participating in.
  4. The service is too long, it is boring.
  5. "I'm saved by faith, so I don't need it".
  6. I am not comfortable telling family and friends who I invite that they can not receive the Sacrament, so I will not invite them. (we explain that in the bulletin).
  7. I get board doing the same thing every Sunday. (one member said she finds matins boring too.)
I could go on and on and on, but those are the main reasons. These reasons are coming from people who were instructed and catechized in our Synod, and most in our Church. The previous pastor fought for over 10 years to restore weekly communion, we are currently doing better, they had communion offered on the 1st, 3rd and 5th Sundays and festivals; Matins on the 2nd and 4th. Some noticed this change and are pushing back.

I discussed with Pastor, and we agree, no more concessions as now they expect Pastor and Elders to cave in on everything else. Much of our Council fail to show humility and Charity, and refuse to hear God's word or heed the confessions; to the point where the want to micromanage Pastor and Elders, to the point where thy feel that they collectively and exclusively in our congregation hold the office of the Keys even to the extent that they believe it is their authority, not Pastors, to excommunicate.

The last Church I belonged to, their council had much the same attitude regarding frequency, and demanded that we allow open communion. Pastor and we Elders refused and continued to follow Synod and the Confessions. The Church split with the majority going to non liturgical reformed protestant evangelical communities. We closed that Church two years later.

Council has it in their minds that we can sustain for 5 years, so that is where we are headed as well.

There are more reasons, but these are the main ones.

Can your Pastor just excommunicate the Council? Because frankly I would. Of course I structured my Congregationalist missions to facilitate easy conversion to an Episcopal polity if I join a church that has bishops (as a presbyter; I don’t feel qualified for the episcopate at this stage in my life), so as a result certain things that usually exist with congregational polity we do a bit differently.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Can your Pastor just excommunicate the Council? Because frankly I would. Of course I structured my Congregationalist missions to facilitate easy conversion to an Episcopal polity if I join a church that has bishops (as a presbyter; I don’t feel qualified for the episcopate at this stage in my life), so as a result certain things that usually exist with congregational polity we do a bit differently.
They would stop paying him and starve him out.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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I wonder how we are to understand these passages in light of 1) The Resurrection where they will receive a reward, since it was in light of the Resurrection that Judas Maccabees prayed for his fallen comrades. and 2) Those under the earth (in Sheol) who seem to be aware. Examples would be saints like, Rachel, Samuel, Moses and Elijah also sinners, eg, the kings of the earth in Isaiah.
1 first death

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 115:17

The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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In trying to understand the Confessional position regarding invocation, I have seen two interpretations of the BoC. The first is similar to what you have said, namely that invocation of saints should not be required of Christians since Scripture does not teach but that it is not otherwise strictly forbidden. The second is that it is strictly forbidden. The latter seems odd to me on it's face, because the rule in Lutheranism tends to err in the direction of freedom, so that whatever is not forbidden in Scripture is a matter of conscience. But Chemnitz seems to argue in his Examination of the Council of Trent that invocation contradicts Scripture, or more specifically, Christ as the one mediator between man and God. So I remain confused as to the actual position of the Confessions themselves


While certainly possible, the fact that Scripture is silent regarding this, leads me to believe that these prayers are more for us than for the recently departed.

Kind of like prayers to the saints; we hold that it is certainly possible for the saints to hear our prayers, but apart from tradition, Scripture also remains silent. We do know that our Lord Jesus does hear our prayers, as does our Heavenly Father when we pray through Christ as our intercessor. Why take a chance. We do, however, commemorate and venerate the saints. They are part of the "cloud of witnesses" of which the Bible speaks.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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There were, at the time the BOC was compiled, and still remain two camps within the Churches that nominally refer to themselves as Lutheran. The Confessional Lutherans, and the liberal Lutherans. The confessions used the term "Crypto-Calvinists; keeping in mind that there are some individuals in both camps that can lean one direction more than others.

The Confessional Churches tend to be the least legalistic about these things, while the more liberal churches tend to be the most legalistic.

Now, having said that, we have very "fundamentalist reformed minded" persons in my congregation. They are not at all concerned about "breaking rules" but more so, about being "too Catholic". I think in most cases that may indeed be the case. Legalistic persons in an otherwise "confessionally orthodox" congregation are the ones that will fight every Sunday communion; get upset when Pastor genuflects at the consecration; get extra upset when the assisting elder/deacon (we normally wear a black cassock) puts on a white cotta for high festivals, and Pastor puts on a Causable. They are the same ones who want a happy-clappy service, and despise a sung liturgy. They also don't like the pastor communing first, then consuming the left-over elements after the distribution... they claim it is wrong for the Pastor to commune twice.

We seem to have more than our share of these in our congregation, but based on past experience, we are better off than most.

BTW, it the participate in our Lutheran Service Book Service of Christian Burial, they do pray for the dead whether they realize it or not.

Looks good on them. LOL.

We still get away with more than they think we should; these images are from our past Easter Service, I am the guy with the candle:

upload_2022-9-8_16-10-14.png


upload_2022-9-8_16-16-44.png


upload_2022-9-8_16-14-6.png
 
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