A Necessity - 4 Marian Doctrines

MarkRohfrietsch

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If the Immaculate Conception of Mary is true and she is without sin and therefore doesn't need a saviour, why does she refer to God as her Saviour?

And if she was a perpetual virgin, why does the Scripture refer to Jesus having brothers and sisters?

And where is the "thus says the Lord" in Scripture where it refers that Mary was caught up into heaven without having to suffer death (The Assumption)?

Your first point is spot on.

Regarding the perpetual virginity, held by most of the Church including many Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists and other Protestants. "Brothers" is often used elsewhere to describe "extended families", in this case likely cousins. Granted, our Lutheran Confessions support "semper virago" Scripture is silent on this, so we treat it as pious opinion, not an article of faith.

Regarding the Assumption/Dormation. Such was not unheard of in Scripture, so God is certainly capable of such a miracle. It should not be surprising to any of us as it sounds like something that Jesus might do for his mother. Assumption prior to her death; her body being brought to heaven after her death, both are plausible. There is some sketchy anicdotal evidence that her tomb was found and that it was empty. Regardless, the vast majority commemorates her on the 15th of this month; in my Church, it is called "The Feast of St. Mary, Mother of Our Lord. We commemorate her dormation (falling asleep, her death), but the assumption is also a matter of pious opinion, not an article of faith.
 
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JoeT

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If the Immaculate Conception of Mary is true and she is without sin and therefore doesn't need a savior, why does she refer to God as her Savoir?
I don't recall ever saying she didn't need a savior? The Church teaches she was singularly graced.

"The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. [CCC 491]"​

You shouldn’t find anyplace in Catholic literature that says, “Mary didn’t need a savior”.

And if she was a perpetual virgin, why does the Scripture refer to Jesus having brothers and sisters?
He did have "brothers" (”, in Greek ἀδελφός (adelphos)). Adelphos can be a close relative, a spiritual brother, a clansman, a countryman. These were the brother of Jesus Christ. There is no other individual in Scripture said to have Mary and/or Joseph as mother or father, that is a vaginal relation to Jesus Christ. Without such designation “brothers” are as follows:

  • having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
  • any follower of an individual
  • a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
  • an associate in employment or office
  • brethren in Christ

    (Source: G80 - adelphos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) )

adelphos is also used to describe our fellow man regardless of nationality. An example:

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, [Hebrews 2:11]
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, [Hebrews 2:11]​

Jesus suffered and died, said St. Paul, for all of mankind, not just the Jew, not just Jerusalem. Again there is an ambiguity of blood relationship except that all humans are related to Adam and Eve.


adelphos is used as an expression of affection. This is frequently expressed in the family of God, were no blood relationship exists. We see this brotherly love in Matthew 18:8, John 21:23 and Acts 6:3 and again in St. Paul’s work Romans 1:13:

Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. Romans 1:13
adelphos is used in Sacred Scripture to express fellow officers, notice the use of brethren in Scripture also expresses those a hierarchy of office. Of particular note is St. Paul addressing the Colossians where St. Paul addresses the faithful as well as his fellow Bishop Timothy.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, and Timothy, a brother, the saints and faithful brethren in Christ Jesus, who are at Colossa. [Colossians 1:1-2]


Here we see Timothy as a brother Bishop in the Kingdom of God, the Catholic Church and we see the family of God in the faithful “brethren in Christ Jesus”. Please don’t tell me that all the people in the Church of Colossa are blood siblings of Jesus Christ.

You might also see Colossians 2:13 and Ephesians 4:21 where we see the distinguishing mark of office in ‘brother’. And there is no blood relationship inferred by the text.

adelphos is used for a brethren in Christ.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [Matthew 25:40]
These brethren in Christ are members of His Kingdom, His Church as the first fruit, the ministers of the Lord. They were called brothers because they too became adopted sons of God. Fear not, Christ said, tell my brothers to go to Galilee. Was Christ wasn’t referring only to James His supposed brother, but all those who walked with Him, then and all those who walk with Him now. Also, see also Hebrew 2:11 sqq. Matthew 28:10; John 20:17 Romans 8:29

So we see that when St. Paul refers to James the Lord’s brother, Paul is acknowledging James is an Apostle, as He is. He is acknowledging there is a hierarchy being established within the Church where certain leading members are organizing into the core Magisterium. Consequently, By His Mercy has correctly identified which adelphos was being used in the text.

1) James, son of Zebedee (Matthew 4:21, Matthew 10:2, Mark 1:19-20, Mark 3:17, etc.)

2) James, son of Alpheus (Matthew 10:3, Mark 3:18, etc.)

In fact we can name all the adelphos in Scripture such that none is left as the blood related sibling of Christ.

As an aside, it has been suggested that the Greek συγγενής (syggenēs), meaning in, or clansmen as well as countryman, would have been used if the blood relationship between “brothers” was something less than that of blood related siblings. However, it seems that the overwhelming number of the uses of “brother” meaning something other than a blood related sibling makes the argument is weak, if not void all together. As an example, Christ lists the various relationships distinguishing brethren from clansmen:

“Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee” [Luke 14:12]​

Even more important the reason that adelphos is frequently used by Christ because of His two greatest commandments, the first commandment defines the second. “Master,” Christ is asked, “which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.” [Matthew 22:36 - 40] Without exception Christ is calling all to be His brother as adopted sons of God. We are to treat all men in the same loving way as we Love God and ourselves.

It’s quite apparent that “brother” was to be the new relationship between those in the Kingdom of God and that a blood relationship was to take a back seat. Whereas prior to Christ, the relationship between family members was a distinguishing mark of the individual’s standing in the community.

To circle around to the point of beginning, there is no other sibling designated in Scripture as the “son (or daughter) of Mary and Joseph”. O’Brother what list of brothers can you bring forth? Nary a one who is called a Son of Mary except Jesus Christ himself. Just where do you get brother(s), son (s) of Mary or Joseph.

And where is the "thus says the Lord" in Scripture where it refers that Mary was caught up into heaven without having to suffer death (The Assumption)?
It doesn't. Where does it say “Watchman1” will be caught up into heaven – but the promise is there isn’t?



JoeT​
 
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JoeT

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The context of the reference clearly indicates that the people were referring to Jesus, His parents, brothers and sisters. This is basic comprehension 101. The trouble is that the delusion caused by the Marian doctrine causes the Scripture to be twisted to fit that doctrine, rather than the doctrine be adapted to what the Scripture actually says.

It is stupidity to say that Joseph and Mary never consummated their marriage after Jesus was born. Are you saying that they had a sexless marriage? Come on....^_^^_^^_^

Stupid on who's account? Isn’t there an adage among those who hold to the philosophies of Bible Alone that if it isn’t in the bible it isn’t so? Since there is no biblical evidence of anyone being called the son or daughter of Joseph or Mary then obviously there no “brothers” having a uterine relationship to Mary - that is according to the adage. But, let’s not end it there, it can be shown that it is likely Joseph and Mary took vows of chastity, they were both professed ascetics. Isn't it stupidity to go against non-biblical adages.

There is, however, compelling Sacred Scripture to show Mary took ascetic vows of chastity as did Joseph to lend his support in cooperating with Mary’s vows. More likely Joseph had made a vow of chastity himself. Furthermore, they were “married” in every sense of the word we give it today, except for the sharing of marriage bed. Such relationships exist to this very day. Before you go nuts with objections, let me remind you that marriage isn’t defined by going to bed, rather it is the will of two coming together in such a way as to be of one heart, one mind and one will, the union of two forming one. We hear the promise of such unions in the Eucharist, those who eat and drink the Real Presence abide in Christ as He abides in them [Cf. John 6:57]. Marriage is a multiplier where the math is the expression of 1x1 ≥ 1. We are multiplied by our spouse while there is gain there is no loss, yet the sum remains, one or greater.

Not all vows in antiquity were deep commitments; nevertheless, failure to succeed the commitment meant spiritual ruin. Asceticism was practiced hundreds of years before Christ and still practiced today, maybe not in the same austere way as ages ago.

The spouse of the Lord desires a union with God, as humble love for her groom:

Do not consider me that I am brown, because the sun hath altered my color: the sons of my mother have fought against me, they have made me the keeper in the vineyards: my vineyard I have not kept. shew me, O thou whom my soul loveth, where thou feedest, where thou liest in the midday, lest I begin to wander after the flocks of thy companions. If thou know not thyself, O fairest among women, go forth, and follow after the steps of the flocks, and feed thy kids beside the tents of the shepherds. To my company of horsemen, in Pharao's chariots, have I likened thee, O my love. Thy cheeks are beautiful as the turtledove's, thy neck as jewels. We will make thee chains of gold, inlaid with silver. [Canticles 1:5-10]​

According to Susanna Elm, author of Virgins of God: The Making of Asceticism in Late Antiquity, asceticism was common. Sometimes the ascetic made vows of their physical prowess, suffering training as an athlete suffers building strength. Others made vows of abstinence, perhaps limiting food or drink, not unlike fasting. One obvious biblical example is Christ's fasting for 40 days and 40 nights.

The virgin has illustrious models to follow: the five wise virgins of Gospel of Matthew, Mary, and the famous Thecla, heroine of the Apocryphal Acts of Paul. Moreover, her bridegroom is not swayed by superficialities: 'Are you bereft of parents? You are not bereft of God. . . . Have courage, because the bridegroom Christ does not regard fading beauty...whether you are short or tall' [c. Matthew 25:1-13; Apocryphal Acts of Paul 8.105- 09, Susanna Elm, `Virgins of God': The Making of Asceticism in Late Antiquity: The Making of Asceticism in Late Antiquity]​


Mary and Joseph lived out her vows in the customs of Judaism dedicating their lives to God. Those who practiced a divinely inspired asceticism usually take a solemn vow in the Temple; "He who takes a solemn vow contracts a spiritual marriage with God, which is much more excellent than a material marriage" (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa). Such a vow espouses Mary to God, a vow that not even the Sanhedrin can break; only Joseph can do that, but He didn’t, recall Joseph is said to be “ a just man”.

The husband of a young woman had a right to cause her to break the vow. There is a proviso in the Law of Moses; the husband must object on the spot of hearing of his bride’s solemn vow to God, I call it the “disallow provision”. [Cf. Numbers 30:11-17]. If the husband fails to speak out at the appropriate time his duty was to stand aside allowing the woman to fulfill her word. This would not be difficult for a “just” man and especially so for St. Joseph who supported Mary in every way possible. (Sorry ladies, women didn’t get the same right of refusal as men.) In our case Mary herself is the very essence of the vow becoming the spouse of God, and her earthly husband's role becomes the very essence of manhood to assist support and provide for the family. The Gospels of Luke and Matthew, as well as The Protoevangelium of James, indicate St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary had both made such vows. Joseph acted in support for his earthly wife "Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. . . Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately." [Matthew 1:18-19] The indication that Joseph was a "just man" had cultural meaning related to the vows ascetics in Judaism. Unlike some of us today who believe vows are meant to be broken, being a "just man" implied that Joseph followed the Law of Moses impeccably and kept his word. [Cf. Matthew 1:19]

If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord's brethren were the issue of those wives, an invention which some hold with a rashness which springs from audacity not from piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin. [St. Jerome, Against Helvidius]​

Mary's response to Gabriel's annunciation was a humble vow of fidelity, consistent with Temple rites of marriage. Thus, we hold the New Eve bore God's eternal new Adam in the form of a sacrificial lamb. She carried Him across the dark seas of sin and death to the shores of our redemption and life. The Ever-Virgin Mary then is the Ark of everlasting life, the mother of our Salvation, and the Queen of Heaven bringing Jesus to the shores of our salvation. Thus, St. Joseph is the oarsman who rows Him into our life. An unjust man might have taken another spouse, but not Joseph declared a just man. An unjust man might desecrate the Holy of Holies, but not Joseph a just man.

JoeT
 
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JoeT

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There is a distinct lack of actual Bible quotes to back up any of this. The reality is that the Marian doctrines were made up out of a pope's imagination to give credence to the pagan worship of the Queen of Heaven that crept into the Church after Constantine made Christianity the state religion of Rome and opened up the church to unconverted pagans who had just a nominal observance to Christianity while retaining their worship of the pagan gods.

That's funny. Is there a requirement for a certain number of biblical quotes per paragraph? I'll have to keep that in mind for the future. According to my count there are 7 quotes from the bible and 7 paragraphs (excluding offset quotes, one of which is from an early Church father (who by the way is the author of the Latin Vulgate) and one quote from a secular author, and several references alluded to).

Could it be that Truth is not absolute, and we have a instance of 2 different truths on the same subject? Or, are you dodging the comments to avoid a honest assessment of the comments?

How were the Marian doctrines made up? It's an assertion that has no basis in fact, only a basis in prejudice - you've made for yourself a different image of Christ other than the one born by Mary.

As far as I know only two Marian doctrines were proclamations after taking council and cooperation with the Curia; two of the Doctrines were by Council. All were debated and discussed with the Catholic organs.

The claim by many non-Catholics is that when two or more meet in Christ, that's gospel.

"For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." [Matthew 18:20]​

Is it that the gospel not correct? Could it be there is a different standard for "Catholics", who are the successors of the Apostles, we apply a "different gospel"?

JoeT
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The context of the reference clearly indicates that the people were referring to Jesus, His parents, brothers and sisters. This is basic comprehension 101. The trouble is that the delusion caused by the Marian doctrine causes the Scripture to be twisted to fit that doctrine, rather than the doctrine be adapted to what the Scripture actually says.

It is stupidity to say that Joseph and Mary never consummated their marriage after Jesus was born. Are you saying that they had a sexless marriage? Come on....^_^^_^^_^
This does not bode well for your Church if you are incapable of showing respect to the beliefs of others, even if you disagree. Calling the ideas and doctrines of others is totally out of line; and an unwillingness to discuss in a civil manner is not why CF is here. Take your hate elsewhere.
 
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prodromos

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after Constantine made Christianity the state religion of Rome
You and others have been corrected on this falsehood many times. Why do you continue to bear false witness?
 
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prodromos

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The context of the reference clearly indicates that the people were referring to Jesus, His parents, brothers and sisters. This is basic comprehension 101. The trouble is that the delusion caused by the Marian doctrine causes the Scripture to be twisted to fit that doctrine, rather than the doctrine be adapted to what the Scripture actually says.
Scripture is consistent with Jesus' brothers and sisters being older than Him. Their attitude towards Him is not consistent with Him being the eldest brother.
It is stupidity to say that Joseph and Mary never consummated their marriage after Jesus was born. Are you saying that they had a sexless marriage? Come on....^_^^_^^_^
Numbers 30 describes the potential for such marriages and I personally know of such a marriage today.
 
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JoeT

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There is a distinct lack of actual Bible quotes to back up any of this. The reality is that the Marian doctrines were made up out of a pope's imagination to give credence to the pagan worship of the Queen of Heaven that crept into the Church after Constantine made Christianity the state religion of Rome and opened up the church to unconverted pagans who had just a nominal observance to Christianity while retaining their worship of the pagan gods.

O'Brother Where Art Thou?; lets find them in a Book with a list of verses behind them!

Let's step through the gaggle of Christ’s brothers and see if we can spot blood kin, i.e. Christ’s siblings having the same mother.?

1. St. Peter, ST. Andrew, St. Simon (called ‘Zelotes’) and St. Philip (4 Apostles):

St. Peter (a.k.a. Simon, or Cephas) and Andrew were siblings, sons of Jona (Johannes). Philip on the other hand came from the same town but not related by his parents; there may have been some distant family relationship. Knowing the lineage of these we can rightly say that these are not siblings of Jesus.

Nope! no brother here

2. St. James & St. John Zebedee(2 Apostles):


St. James the Greater and St. John — sons of Zebedee and Salome, Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40; 16:1 St. John knows the high-priest (John 18:16) and is given the care of Mother of Jesus John 19:27. St. James the Greater was at the Transfiguration Mark 9:1; Matthew 17:1; Luke 9:28, and the Agony in Gethsemani, Matthew 26:37; Mark 14:33. Martyred around 44 A.D., Acts 12:1-2. James the son of Zebedee was killed early in the Acts of the Apostles (Cf. Acts 12:2), consequently this isn't the same James as Gal 1:19 as he was dead by the time St. Paul reported to Jerusalem for orders.

Nope! no blood kin here!

Their mother was Salome the daughter of the high priest and the pious women who ministered to and ministered Christ (cf. Matthew 27:55, sq.; Mark 15:40; 16:1; Luke 8:2 sq.; 23:55-24:1). It’s Salome that wanted her sons to sit on the right hand of Christ’s throne. (Matthew 20:21).

Nope! no blood kin here!. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. James the Greater

3. Matthew , Jude and James The Less (3 Apostles):

Matthew and James, the sons of Alpheus — Matt 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13. James the Less is the one referred to as ‘brother of the Lord’ and Bishop of the Church of Jerusalem. This can be shown in Gal 1:19 where Paul goes to Jerusalem to see Peter. Peter is not available, he only saw the Bishop of Jerusalem, James the ‘Brother of the Lord’. This James can’t be both the sibling of Jesus and the son of Alpheus.

Matthew, the son of Alpheus; Mark 2:14; Matthew 9:9 a Galilean who collected taxes at Capharnaum for Herod Antipas.

Jude (a.k.a. Thaddeus ) — Jude 1:1. "Brother of James" called so because his brother James was better known than himself in the primitive Church. Luke 6:16; Acts 1:13. Being the brother of James, Jude can’t be the sibling of Jesus.

[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Matthew
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. James the Less]

Nope! no blood kin here!

4. James and Joseph (or Joses) (2 Apostles):

James, Joseph (or Joses) sons of Cleopas — Mark 15:40; Matthew 27:56 the sons of Cleophas or Clopas (John 19:25). "Maria Cleophć" is generally translated "Mary the wife of Cleophas." Consequently we can conclude that these two were not siblings of Jesus. SJ Prat, in his book Jesus Christ, suggests that this Mary is the second wife of Cleophas. We find that these, James and Joseph, are not brothers of Christ. This James is James the "little" often confused with James the "less"

[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Brethren of the Lord]

Nope! no blood kin here!

5. ST. Bartholomew, St. Thomas (2 Apostles):

St. Bartholomew many think he can be identified as Nathaniel the friend of Philip, John 1:43-51; Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:14. St. Thomas we know very little outside the Scriptures. We do know that he is the ‘show me’ Saint. These two Apostles are unrelated to Jesus. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Bartholomew
[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nathanael]

Nope! no blood kin here!

6. Judas Iscariot (1 Apostle):

Finally, we have Judas, the Apostle that betrayed our Lord. He was the only Apostle that wasn’t from Galilee. Being from the town of ‘Kerioth’ Judas can’t be a sibling of Jesus. [CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Judas Iscariot].

Nope! no blood kin here! The absence of somebody being called the “son(s) of Mary of Joseph” is now very conspicuous. Therefore according to the oft quoted adage, if it ain't in the bible it ain't so, there is no blood kin here. Boy, this is hard to find uterine kin of Jesus Christ. It takes a long stretch of the imagination to create such siblings of Christ.

Listed are 14 men all of whom are called ‘brethren of the Lord’ (Cf. 1 Corinthians 9:5 ) i.e. in the same special way that The Twelve were referred to as ‘brothers’, yet we found that none of them are siblings of Jesus. By some accounts James the less, James the little, Joses , Jude and Simon, and unnamed male siblings along with unnamed sisters; the sum of which would make too large a brood for a single woman to bear, according to some a litter of 26. If everyone mentioned as ‘brethren’ or sister’ was a sibling this would make the Blessed Mary ubermom, worthy of honor in its own right. Based on this same literal reading of the Gospels and the Epistles, we’d need to add St. Paul as 'the brother of the Lord' along with others referred to in Scripture as ‘brother’ of Jesus.

But let's be freethinkers, and we know that freethinkers think and do what they will. Assign the honor of Ubermom to Mary, and at the age of 55 or 60 suspends bearing children, which of her children are demigods and which is God. And to compound this freethinking, why didn't one of the demigods take over His Kingdom on earth?

We’ve already discussed the meaning of “adelphos” in some detail above. By becoming adopted sons of God, we become spiritual bothers of Christ (Cf. John 1:12) – many refer to this as “the Good News”. 'Adelphos' is used 400 or more times in the King James' Greek with covering all the various meanings. Consequently, to validate 'brothers' of Jesus in scripture we need a lot more than 'adelphos' to hear an individual is ‘called’ brother. If Mary is to issue fourth the Messiah according to prophecy which of the 26, or so, sons and daughters is a divine person. It's because Jesus didn't have bothers or half-brothers.

What happen?, there aren't any brothers left behind? And with all that Scripture to waste!

JoeT
 
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JoeT

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The three most important people in the New Testament never acknowledged that the Marian doctrines are true - Jesus, Paul, and Peter. If the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, and assumption of Mary were true, then they would have clearly said so. John, in the book of Revelation, never mentions her by name as being at the throne of God. So, if Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John never clearly supports the doctrine, then neither do I, no matter how many other "authorities" that you quote.
You don't have to tell a man of truth Mary sits at the right hand of her son. See it works like this, in antiquity, the Mother of the Lord or King sat at the right hand of her son. Consequently a reasoning person reckons if he has a Lord, i.e.King, then His Lord has a Mother who is Queen Mother. Given that;

Jesus Christ is our Lord, King, master with His mother sitting at His right hand in life
and given,
Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, Lord, King, Master
then
Mary is the Queen Mother of our Lord sitting at His right hand.

See how easy it is? Maybe you don't have a Lord yet?

JoeT
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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A typical response for someone who has no real answers. This is not a protected forum for Catholics, so I can jolly well say what I believe is consistent with Scripture. So, take your accusations elsewhere. If you don't like these issues discussed and debated on an open forum like this, set up your own thread on the protected Catholic forum so you can say what you believe without having to debate it with those who don't.
More like a typical response to boorish behavior, but call it what you want, and make it up as you go.
 
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JoeT

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I've made my points and I stick to them.

Is that in spite of the Scripture I provided?

You can quote all you want, but without Jesus, Paul, Peter, or John clearly telling us that Mary is the Queen of Heaven through whom we go to for salvation, then I go with them, because what they say, or not say, contains the truth about these doctrine.

There's a problem with your contention, Luke spends an entire 2 chapters on Mary, Matthew discusses Joseph and Mary in Chapter 1 and 2, John's gospel has Mary in chapter 2, and chapter 19 where she is placed in the care of John - more specifically she was made mother of the Church represented by the Apostle John, and Mark mentions her. But John mentions seeing her in heaven;

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered." [Apocalypse 11:19; 12:1-3]​

Gosh, there sure is a lot of Scripture there, can you deal with it?

JoeT
 
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