What is wrong with Calvinism ?

John Mullally · Aug 11, 2022

QvQ said:
Ok, so Paul wasn't saved by the working of the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus or if he was saved, it was a special case of election.

Paul was given an offer he could not refuse.

Here is my order:
1) A person who hears the Word and believes (one act) is saved. That Faith received through Grace.
2) At that moment, the person receives the Holy Spirit (is regenerated). The Holy Spirit regenerates the conscience so a person can understand sin (convict)
3)The person's sins are remitted through Christ and repentance is granted by God (The person is already saved through faith in Christ's atonement)
4) The person can be baptized through the Grace of God.

YOUR list almost sounds Catholic except the actual Sacrament of Baptism would come first.
If I am correct Catholic Order of Salvation is:
1) Baptism
2) Being instructed in the Faith (convicted by the Holy Spirit)
3) repentance
4) confession
5) Absolution (you would say salvation)

I am not certain if this is Catholic, just my meager understanding.

As a Catholic in my early teens, I started reading the Gospels in my early teens and I recognized that my Catholic upbringing did not prepare me to understand much of the NT - later I determined that was a problem everywhere. The Catholic church speaks a lot about love, confessing sins, communion, current affairs, and what days you have to go to Mass, but I never heard anything about salvation and justification by faith. My observation was that most Catholics were Universalists who practice the sacraments.

QvQ · Aug 11, 2022

John Mullally said:
Paul was given an offer he could not refuse.

So much for Free Will, aye? (your answer is really good)

John Mullally said:
As a Catholic in my early teens, I started reading the Gospels in my early teens

In our atheist family, one brother became a Catholic. What little I know about Catholicism is what he said, what I understand from reading Aquinas and Augustine. I read Merton.
So I know as much as you could write on the head of a pin about Catholic.
The other brother became a Baptist. I became ..whatever, Calvinist maybe
No atheist in the second generation.

zoidar · Aug 11, 2022

QvQ said:
The question is:
Do you believe in Grace as stated in Ephesians 2:8 ?

Maybe I shouldn't jump in here, but Ephesians say:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
— Ephesians 2:8

It says we are not saved by doing all these things, but that salvation is a gift of God, not something we can earn. How do we receive the gift of salvation? It does not say, but we know we receive salvation through repentance. Repentance is not an earning of salvation, it is just the opposite, it's confessing we don't have any good deeds worthy of salvation. To God we come without hoping in our deeds, but with hope in His mercy, and if God saves us it is a grace of God, and not because of our good deeds.

Clare73 · Aug 11, 2022

Clare73 · Aug 11, 2022

zoidar said:
If it was that clear we would all agree.

Contra-Biblical assumption.
Scripture doesn't blame it on God that things are not clear to fallen mankind.

Scripture presents the necessary means for clarity and the reasons for non-clarity.

I don't think it's the best way to read Paul into John to drive home the point.

One of the Biblical reasons for non-clarity.

Better would be if you found something to use for your case from John's writings IMO. Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14 and John in John 3:3-8 are talking about totally different things. But I know you disagree.

They are both talking about the necessity of the Holy Spirit to apprehend the things of God.
That couldn't be any more clear.
And the same Jesus taught both of them the same doctrines.
There is no Biblical reason for this artificial separation of John and Paul.

What is to be examined is why one resists the fact of that commonality, and thereby causes things to be unclear.
Why does one need things to be unclear? What is lost if they are clear? Self-autonomy?

Part of conversion is the giving up of thinking and doing Christianity your way in order to receive and embrace the NT way instead. And trust me, they aren't the same.

Der Alte · Aug 11, 2022

QvQ said:
So much for Free Will, aye? (your answer is really good)
In our atheist family, one brother became a Catholic. What little I know about Catholicism is what he said, what I understand from reading Aquinas and Augustine. I read Merton.
So I know as much as you could write on the head of a pin about Catholic.
The other brother became a Baptist. I became ..whatever, Calvinist maybe
No atheist in the second generation.

Can we say "Copout"? Paul had free will just as anyone else. About 5.5 decades ago while I was in flight school, next stop Viet Nam, as I was driving down a street with my personal life in the toilet and I felt compelled to go into a certain church. The compulsion was strong and I thought about resisting, I could have kept on driving but made the decision to go in.
If God forces people to be Christian and they have no choice in the matter, why isn't the entire world Christian?

zoidar · Aug 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
Contra-Biblical assumption.
Scripture doesn't blame it on God that things are not clear to fallen mankind.

Scripture presents the necessary means for clarity and the reasons for non-clarity.

One of the Biblical reasons for non-clarity.

They are both talking about the necessity of the Holy Spirit to apprehend the things of God.
That couldn't be any more clear.
And the same Jesus taught both of them the same doctrines.
There is no Biblical reason for this artificial separation of John and Paul.

What is to be examined is why one resists the fact of that commonality, and thereby causes things to be unclear.
Why does one need things to be unclear? What is lost if they are clear? Self-autonomy?

Part of conversion is the giving up of thinking and doing Christianity your way in order to receive and embrace the NT way instead. And trust me, they aren't the same.

My point is that we must first understand what Paul says in 1 Cor 2:14 before we can use it to explain John 3:3-8. You seem to compare them without taking time to understand what each of them say. I think that's is one reason you get to the wrong conclusions.

"Part of conversion"? Conversion to what?

John Mullally · Aug 11, 2022

QvQ said:
Ok, so Paul wasn't saved by the working of the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus or if he was saved, it was a special case of election.

Paul's was an extreme case. Few are struck blind and rebuked by the audible voice of the Lord. In Numbers 22, we see an extreme case of supernatural persuasion that did not work out. Although, Balaam was audibly rebuked by a donkey for resisting clear instruction from God, he did not repent and we see his fate in the book of Jude.

Der Alte said:
About 5.5 decades ago while I was in flight school, next stop Viet Nam, as I was driving down a street with my personal life in the toilet and I felt compelled to go into a certain church. The compulsion was strong and I thought about resisting, I could have kept on driving but made the decision to go in.

Good story. God's leading is frequently not spectacular and can be resisted.

QvQ said:
In our atheist family, one brother became a Catholic. What little I know about Catholicism is what he said, what I understand from reading Aquinas and Augustine. I read Merton.

So I know as much as you could write on the head of a pin about Catholic. The other brother became a Baptist. I became ..whatever, Calvinist maybe. No atheist in the second generation.

It is good you and your brothers are believers.

zoidar · Aug 11, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
My point is only that Christ did not pay for what any sinner ends up paying for himself.

Maybe you will find this interesting.

"[23] Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology [Institutio theologiae elencticae 1679-85], 3 vols., trans. George Musgrave Giger, ed. James T. Dennison (Phillipsburg, N. J.: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1992), 14.13. Contrast in this regard Augustine, who affirms penal substitution but appears to deny imputation of our sin to Christ. In Against Faustus he says to his opponent, “Confess that he died, and you may also confess that he, without taking our sin, took its punishment” (14.7). Perhaps he is here speaking ex concessis. But elsewhere he says, “By taking on your punishment, while not taking on your guilt, he canceled both guilt and punishment” (Sermon 171.3). According to Franks, this sentence “Suscipiendo poenam et non suscipiendo culpam et culpam delevit et poenam” is frequently repeated with slight variations in Augustine’s writings (Robert S. Franks, A History of the Doctrine of the Work of Christ in its Ecclesiastical Development, 2 vols. [London: Hodder & Stoughton, (1918)], I:126.) See, e.g., Augustine, The Merits and Forgiveness of Sins 1. 61, where he says that Christ transferred to his own flesh death but not sin."

Is Penal Substitution Unsatisfactory? | Reasonable Faith

QvQ · Aug 11, 2022

Der Alte said:
Can we say "Copout"? Paul had free will just as anyone else

God chose Saul. Specifically. God did not stop several different travelers before He found one agreeable to His plan or more suited.

Der Alte said:
The compulsion was strong and I thought about resisting

Choice, we all have choice but not uncaused free will. You felt compelled to a church. Another person may have been compelled to a bar or to a girl friend's house. The compulsion can then be alcohol or love. All of those options were available to you but you were "compelled"
The compulsion to a Church is the Holy Spirit.

Der Alte said:
why isn't the entire world Christian?

The answer to "why" is always "just because."
Somehow the Book of Job states or infers that God does not answer "why" questions.
We do know what God does, we do know sometimes how He does it.
"Why" is simply "God's Will." Or as Calvin states, "according to God's secret councils."

John Mullally · Aug 11, 2022

QvQ said:
God chose Saul. Specifically. God did not stop several different travelers before He found one agreeable to His plan or more suited.

During the Exodus (Numbers 22): God gave Balaam blessings to say over Israel which he eventually begrudgingly complied with after much resistance. After finally blessing Israel, he counseled their enemies with a plan that led Israel to sin. Balaam's terrible eternal fate is stated in the book of Jude.

Some say that Balaam's evil actions that led to Israel's sin was all part of God's plan, but that is based upon the faulty premise that everything that happens is God's will.

John Mullally said:
Jesus shows that God's will is not being done on earth at this time. Jesus would not command His disciples to pray "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" if that statement itself was not God's will. Note that be is in the present tense. Yet, God's will is not being done on earth as it is heaven as there is no sin, sickness, and death in heaven.

QvQ · Aug 11, 2022

QUOTE: "Jesus would not command His disciples to pray "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" if that statement itself was not God's will. [UNQUOTE]
A person is to pray for the salvation of all men. 1 Timothy
Calvin stated that was "groups of men." Timothy may be an admonition about the very human tendency to damn people to hell. Instead of "Damn you" when a person is angry, pray for the other person's salvation, as God desires.
There are other verses specifically dealing with prayer which state "Ask and ye shall receive."
Now did God command man to pray when it is obvious that God is not going to answer that prayer?
Does God answer prayer? Why command people pray for what Jesus said would not happen, all men being saved? Other than as an admonition to pray for a foes salvation rather than curse them.

Clare73 · Aug 11, 2022

zoidar said:
My point is that we must first understand what Paul says in 1 Cor 2:14 before we can use it to explain John 3:3-8. You seem to compare them without taking time to understand what each of them say. I think that's is one reason you get to the wrong conclusions.

Is it possible that I have been working with them for a long time?

"Part of conversion"? Conversion to what?

From self autonomy to apostolic teaching.

zoidar · Aug 11, 2022

John Mullally · Aug 11, 2022

John Mullally said:
Jesus shows that God's will is not being done on earth at this time. Jesus would not command His disciples to pray "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" if that statement itself was not God's will. Note that be is in the present tense. Yet, God's will is not being done on earth as it is heaven as there is no sin, sickness, and death in heaven.

Much of Calvinist argumentation depends on the premise that God's will is always done. The above simple proof shows that premise to be false.

QvQ said:
A person is to pray for the salvation of all men. 1 Timothy
Calvin stated that was "groups of men." Timothy may be an admonition about the very human tendency to damn people to hell. Instead of "Damn you" when a person is angry, pray for the other person's salvation, as God desires.
There are other verses specifically dealing with prayer which state "Ask and ye shall receive."
Now did God command man to pray when it is obvious that God is not going to answer that prayer?
Does God answer prayer? Why command people pray for what Jesus said would not happen, all men being saved? Other than as an admonition to pray for a foes salvation rather than curse them.

Man’s sin and rebellion opened the door for the devil to operate (John 12:31). Prayer is not done for show - it gives God permission to operate in the earth on our behalf. I am not saying all our prayers are answered - that's a huge topic. Yes I know that is not a popular belief.

James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

QvQ · Aug 11, 2022

deleted, double post

QvQ · Aug 11, 2022

John Mullally said:
Prayer is not done for show - it gives God permission to operate in the earth on our behalf. I am not saying all our prayers are answered - that's a huge topic. Yes I know that is not a popular belief.

OUCH!

John Mullally said:
James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

Man does not pray to another man nor does man answer any man's prayers. Praying together to God when two or three are gathered together avails a righteous man much.

Pray for groups salvation is all right. Man is commanded to that.
However praying for an individual to be saved is useless if the person has free will as man does not respond to prayers. It is also useless to pray to God for an individual's salvation if it is God's Will the person is not to be saved. (as not all are saved)
Prayers that are useless, or against the Faith "ask and you shall receive" that your interpretation of 1 Timothy requires we are commanded to do...I am more apt to question the interpretation than the contradictory and faithless assertion that God commands us to pray what cannot or will not be done, at least not through prayer.

John Mullally · Aug 11, 2022

John Mullally said:
James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

QvQ said:
Man does not pray to another man nor does man answer any man's prayers. Praying together to God when two or three are gathered together avails a righteous man much.

James 5:16 doesn't say to pray to another man. And James 5:16 doesn't say to pray with other men - although that is found in other scriptures.

QvQ said:
Pray for groups salvation is all right. Man is commanded to that.
However praying for an individual to be saved is useless if the person has free will as man does not respond to prayers. It is also useless to pray to God for an individual's salvation if it is God's Will the person is not to be saved. (as not all are saved)

Our prayer can result in providing additional and better opportunities for individuals to hear and respond to the Gospel message. Many people hear the Gospel message multiple times before they finally respond positively.

1 Timothy 2:4 explicitly says that God desires all to be saved, but many don't accept that because they are convinced that God's will is revealed by what happens (which point I refute).

Jesus says we are to pray that Lord send laborers (i.e. those preaching the Gospel) to gather the harvest (i.e. bring in the lost).

Matthew 9:36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. 38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”

zoidar · Aug 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
From self autonomy to apostolic teaching.

That's what we are discussing, what the apostolic teaching is. If you just want to say: "I'm right, you're wrong" you are putting the discussions into a bad climate. I have told you this before, but you don't seem to understand. And that's too bad, because it would make the discussions more constructive.

You are saying I don't have the apostolic teaching but you do. Anyone can say that. It's just an empty claim. If you are sincere you will show what you have is the apostolic teaching, instead of making empty claims.

zoidar · Aug 11, 2022

John Mullally said:
James 5:16 doesn't say to pray to another man. And James 5:16 doesn't say to pray with other men - although that is found in other scriptures.
Our prayer can result in providing additional and better opportunities for individuals to hear and respond to the Gospel message. Many people hear the Gospel message multiple times before they finally respond positively.

1 Timothy 2:4 explicitly says that God desires all to be saved, but many don't accept that because they are convinced that God's will is revealed by what happens (which point I refute).

Jesus says we are to pray that Lord send laborers (i.e. those preaching the Gospel) to gather the harvest (i.e. bring in the lost).

Matthew 9:36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. 38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”

I'll share a little from my life. Before I knew Christ, I was a seeker. As I think you know, I was into Buddhism and New Age. Somewhere on that road I got a psychoses and ended up in the hospital. My mom who was and is a believer got the church in town to start praying for me. I cannot say I know exactly what those prayers did, but a year later I was saved. I think that was a big part of me coming to Christ. I believe in prayer.

Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.
— James 5:16-18

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

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